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the Northern Ireland Conflict

FinnMacCool

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Has anyone ever heard of an international conflict such as this which the United States has nothing to do with that has become so personal with many americans? I come from a multi-cultural family part-scottish, part-italian, and part-irish. Particularily the scottish and irish side of my family I have been exposed to their culture more (mainly cause my Italian side has almost completely died out and the ones who remain we don't talk too often) and in a lot of ways, I was surpirsed by the pictures they put of the IRA's cause and the Northern Ireland Conflict. Indeed, my irish family regards the IRA as freedom fighters rather then terrorists, which I couldn't understand seeing as the IRA have killed civillians. My family even has a history of having members in the IRA including my great grandfather, who was deported because he jumped through a bass drum during a Protestant March celebrating the defeat of the Irish by the English.

It wasn't until I delved a bit more deeply into the subject, asking opinions online and taking out a few books, that I began to understand the long and bloody history of the irish vs english conflict. It is centuries old and as ancient as some of the middle eastern conflicts that america is predominantly concerned with nowadays. It is really sad to see Ireland, which I have long before regarded as a peaceful nation that was far different then america but I am now seeing as plauged with violence just as other countries are.

I am aware that the violence from the 1970s has somewhat lessened of late but I doubt that it will ever stop completetly. The very fact that the English will continually celebrate their obscure victory over the Irish will never cease to anger and frustrate many irishmen. So long as the English keep rubbing their faces over it and so long as their are young angry, nationalistwho would be willing to put a bullet in someones head for their country, this conflict will continue.
 

FinnMacCool

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lol, but then again, I'm an english protestant, and I'm assuming that, at the very least, you don't have MUCH of a desire to kill me
Nah. I choose not to take a side. Maybe four centuries ago I would've but I think over the years, the crimes commited by both sides have amounted so much that they are now indistinquisable and the only thing that is keeping us away from peace is arrogance and nationalism.

I would most definatly agree with you about imperialist nations being dicks. This is something that americans are accused of very much and it is partially true though it is not true for the majority of us. That is why overbearing patriotism and nationalism isn't a good thing. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country but when you start to believe that you are superior to others, then we're in trouble.
 

GarzaUK

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Ah the Northern Ireland conflict, it has personally affected me since I live in Belfast. Yes, I am a unionist protestant.
Northern Ireland is a relic of imperialism, it was the first colonial test subject, thousands of English and Scotland settlers (my ancesters) settled in the North of Ireland.
The conflict here is just a load of crap seriously, pointless. Fighting over a piece of land with no resources whatsoever. I'm simply a unionist because life would be better in the UK than with the Republic of Ireland. Free healthcare, more benefits, better education.

It funny how the IRA are treated like freedom fighters, I don't know if freedom fighters kill innocent men, woman and children - blowing up restaurants, shopping malls, deal drugs, rob banks.
Here's an interesting fact - the IRA have killed more catholics than protestants, killing the people they are apparantly trying to liberate.
Alas my side is just as bad. Most Northern Irish both protestant and catholic are decent people who just want peace, but there are an minority of people on both sides who are just wankers.

Most of my catholic friends don't want a united Ireland simply because they don't think it will work politically and economically. Sinn Fein who is championing a united Ireland, don't have ANY steps or plan are they are going to make the transition.

I will say these last two facts that are never addressed.
1. Ireland has never been an united island - except under English Rule. Before England came along (and terrorized the place), Ireland was full of petty kingdoms run by warlords.
2. Ulster (9 counties) techinally doesn't belong to the Irish, it belongs to the people who originated from that land - the Scots. Yes beleive it or not the Scottish (the people of Dal Raida) came from Ulster not Scotland, they migrated over the channel around 600AD. The Picts were the real Scottish. So the colonizing of Ulster in the early 1600's was techinically the Scottish coming back home.

But that's neither here or there, the British Isles is a melting pot of all peoples. The conflict is just a bunch of petty crap run by petty people.
 
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You send, a truck load of Scots, Welsh, and English to try and convert Ireland to prodestantarianism....... A bit like trying to bring democracy to the Midle East. A stupid idead brought about by prodestant religious paranoia during th 16th and 17th centurys.

Very dissapointing that many Americans with Irish descent donated money to a terrorist organisation.

The IRA are nothing more than gangsters, just like the UVF or UDF.

As for the Orange Marching season. It is not English that are celebrating the marching season, but rather Northern Ireland prodestants that belong to the Orange Order.
 

GarzaUK

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Australianlibertarian said:
You send, a truck load of Scots, Welsh, and English to try and convert Ireland to prodestantarianism....... A bit like trying to bring democracy to the Midle East. A stupid idead brought about by prodestant religious paranoia during th 16th and 17th centurys.
I never said it was a good idea, many countries have made mistakes, continue to make mistakes. Although the settlers did try to convert the Irish to protestantism it wasn't the main reason for the Ulster plantation. First reason was to control the rebellious Ulster natives who rebelled against English rule when they could. The second to pratice colonisation for the real show - the New World.
Australianlibertarian said:
Very dissapointing that many Americans with Irish descent donated money to a terrorist organisation.
I once talked to an Irish American who donated to the IRA. When I pointed out her money, and indirectly her hands was covered in British and Irish blood she replied, "Maybe when you finally kill each other off, Ireland will be united again." The mentality of these people.
Australianlibertarian said:
The IRA are nothing more than gangsters, just like the UVF or UDF.
Precisely
Australianlibertarian said:
As for the Orange Marching season. It is not English that are celebrating the marching season, but rather Northern Ireland prodestants that belong to the Orange Order.
Ah the Orange Order, it used to be a good organisation - until all the thugs started to join to start trouble. I hate the parades from both sides, yeah the Irish have their 1916 parades. A celebration of sectarianism and bigotry.
I hate politics here.
 

Red_Dave

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galenrox said:
I think the conflict is that England, at the very heart of it, is an imperialist nation, and sees importance in imperialism, while Ireland has become a punching bag for England, and are sick of England being dicks to them.
Your forgetting that

[A] The Brittish gave most of Ireland back, northern ireland was the most pro-brittish part of ireland so it remained part of the uk,fair enough in my view

Northen ireland voted to stay part of the uk.

[C] Northern ireland has its own assembly

So all in all i dont see what we are doing wrong, what else could we do? I think it might be worth letting each county vote on whether it joins the rep of ireland or stays in the uk . Apart from that i dont see a problem with the current situation that warrants blowing people up. If you dont want to be part of the uk the solutions easy. Get in your car, and drive a few miles across the border, problem solved.
 

GarzaUK

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The thing that is funny red dave is that the majority of the nationalists actually don't want a United Ireland, they are using the "United Ireland" stance to wield political position. That's my view, maybe its wrong. It just that every Irish Catholic friend I have, every Irish catholic I have met has said they want to stay in the UK. Why? Life is better up here than down there. Better healthcare, better education, better roads, there is parts of the Republic that still don't have electricity! Do you know that the 5th best place in Europe to get treated for cancer is the Northern Ireland! The Republic is like 13th.

If there is a United Ireland, I'm packing my bags and leaving lol.
 

Old and wise

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Hey, I spent 2 weeks in Ireland this year and both the north and south have made wonderful progress over what it was 22 years ago when I was there last. I wish the U.S. could get along with the rest of the world as well as the Irish are getting along with each other. And the economy in both parts of Ireland would put the U.S. to shame.

Keep it up, you are doing great.:2wave:
 

Red_Dave

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GarzaUK said:
The thing that is funny red dave is that the majority of the nationalists actually don't want a United IrelandQUOTE]

Wouldnt they cease to be nationalists in that case?
 

GarzaUK

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Red_Dave said:
GarzaUK said:
The thing that is funny red dave is that the majority of the nationalists actually don't want a United IrelandQUOTE]

Wouldnt they cease to be nationalists in that case?
In a way but the nationalists movement main aim is not a United Ireland as they claim, but rather more rights for Nationalists and more identification as being Irish such as... to be able to be taught Irish in secondary schools. They consider an United Ireland a romantic idea, but not one that is practical.

For example Sinn Fein do not have any steps or roadmap whatsoever to sucessful integrate the north and the south of Ireland. "We want a socialist Republic." But when asked how are they going to integrate two countries, with two different economies, two different currencies, two different healthcare systems, in fact two different cultures (because everyday life between the two is different). Sinn Fein doesn't have an answer, they appeal to the Romanticism of a united Ireland, that is how they acheive power.

Anothern example is that between 1945-the start of the troubles, the IRA had no support in the North whatsoever. Why? Because life in N.Ireland was superior to its Southern counterpart.

However when Catholics in the North got an education and seen that they were being discriminated against, they protested (and rightly so). The IRA used this sense of discrimination to fuel a terrorist campaign when the only thing Catholics wanted was equal status in Northern Ireland. My people (protestants) were dumb shitheads in those days.:(
 

GarzaUK

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Old and wise said:
Hey, I spent 2 weeks in Ireland this year and both the north and south have made wonderful progress over what it was 22 years ago when I was there last. I wish the U.S. could get along with the rest of the world as well as the Irish are getting along with each other. And the economy in both parts of Ireland would put the U.S. to shame.

Keep it up, you are doing great.:2wave:
I've seen Belfast change dramatically over the last 5 years. We are actually building skyscrapers now and all the wasteland from the troubles is being built over. Personally I think it is better than Dublin.

Alas though the two peoples of Northern Ireland (the Irish & the British colonists) are still suspcious of each other. Living in Belfast has opened my eyes to the truth - the troubles were a pile of bullshit.
 
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