The Myth Of GOP Role In ACA

[Mycroft]

Would I be wrong to infer that you oppose any health plan that attempts to prevent people from being impoverished by medical problems or prevents people from getting sick due to lack of affordable health care because you consider it more important to prevent a resulting loss of personal responsibility and personal choice?

I oppose any federal government health plan. The federal government doesn't have a constitutional mandate to even attempt such a plan and the federal government is, by it's constitutional nature, ill-suited to effectively deal with health care problems. Federal government "solutions" always have much the same effect on health care as government price fixing...it always ends up screwing things up.

Personal responsibility and personal choice are the only effective solution...and those cannot be legislated by government.

 

[vvx]

I mean 300 million Americans ...and you people just had to find this one-guy (Romney) to represent you...LOL .....against Obama Care!!

How smart are you people?

2012 wasn't that long ago. Don't you recall all the fun had at their failed search for "Not Romney"? I was hoping Godfather's would do a $9/$9/$9 pizza deal after the campaign.

 

[Born Free]

Try being less radical and maybe you will.

Yeah, Obomacare will force you to pay for your own healthcare

Obomacare to "FORCE" you to pay for your own healthcare, no it won't. If you don't buy his forced healthcare he will fine you and you are still able to go to any emergency room you want. Further you can't keep your own Dr., insurance cost is going up for everyone not down as Obama promised. Oh and all the young and healthy people are supposed to buy Obamacare insurance and that is not happening, further you can stay on your parents insurance until your 26, the same age group Obomercare needs to sign up. How stupid is that?

and help prevent you from becoming a burden on another states taxpayers and resources. Thats why I like it. :mrgreen:

Of course you like it that people can not buy Obomercare insurance because they don't have to until they are sick or injured, then they go and sign up for insurance. And who is that going to cost. Yep the taxpayers. Remember no precondition, that means no one is going to buy health insurance until they are sick or injured. How stupid is that. Think about it, why in the hell would anyone buy health insurance, when you can buy it when you are injured or become sick. When I say anyone I mean the young and old have no reason to buy health insurance when you can buy it when you only need it and then drop it when you don't. Yes, that is Obamacare.

Forgot Obomercare pays subsidies for people that can't afford it. Who is going to pay for the subsidies, yep the taxpayer. The very taxpayer you say you are saving money.

There is no cost saving in Obomercare for anyone. As a result of Obomercare healthcare cost is rising over a trillion over the next 10 yrs, not decreasing a dime. Now who is paying this money, yep the people. You're Obomercare is not saving anyone a dime but in fact is costing everyone more. Thus more Obama failure.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

2012 wasn't that long ago. Don't you recall all the fun had at their failed search for "Not Romney"? I was hoping Godfather's would do a $9/$9/$9 pizza deal after the campaign.

Yeah, the fact that people are acting as if Romney was some repub golden child and didn't get hammered for his association with healthcare reform in Mass is rather perplexing, to say the least

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Well, if you want to ignore the constant flack Romney took over many of his policies in MA, including his liberal positions of homosexuality and healthcare reform, it was because the leadership knew that the other front runners were totally unelectable and the base was pretty fractured among the various nutbags that constituted that group

why you guys keep ignoring this, I have no idea. But it's easily sourced from reporting at the time, and you have many more advantages angles to attack the current GOP position on




What about that campaign, primary process, and election struck you as well run?

What...what are you whining over now? Is there no point at which you take responsibility for your actions?
Democrats didn't nominate Romney ....YOU DID!!! :3oops:

Good grief ...have we ever had an election where nobody criticize the opponent? You guys not only criticize ...BALD FACE LIEING is staple of every GOP campaign...and in 2012 ....you also tried to suppress and stifle votes. And after all that ....you whine over Democrats campaign tactics.

GET YOU F$CKING THUMB OUT YOUR MOUTH....YOU DAM BABY!!

If somebody wrote a script to a movie ...like you guys just played out in real life ...I would walk out of that movie ...WHY?
Because I would find it unbelievable.

Yet you guys went out and nominated THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD (Romney) ....TIED TO OBAMACARE!!!:lamo

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

What...what are you whining over now?

Whining, how is correcting you and pointing out your mistakes whining?

Is there no point at which you take responsibility for your actions?

What actions are those?

Democrats didn't nominate Romney ....YOU DID!!!

1) I'm conservative, not republican, and my voting activity is best described as independent

2) I don't understand how you read an accusation in my post that the democrats nominated Romney. I made it pretty clear he was a candidate of convenience that was pushed by the Rep power brokers due to the unelectibility of their popular front runners

3) I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to my rebuttal above, where I outline how Romney was never really popular among the base and took constant flack over his healthcare reform

Good grief ...have we ever had an election where nobody criticize the opponent? You guys not only criticize ...BALD FACE LIEING is staple of every GOP campaign...and in 2012 ....you also tried to suppress and stifle votes. And after all that ....you whine over Democrats campaign tactics.

What are you even replying to at this point? I never criticized democrats for attacking Romney. I addressed your claim about Romney's popularity among the GOP base and pointed out his healthcare reform made him extremely unpopular. Which, incidentally, underlines that your above claims to the contrary were false

GET YOU F$CKING THUMB OUT YOUR MOUTH....YOU DAM BABY!!

I'm not the one here having a tantrum over being proven wrong ...

Yet you guys went out and nominated THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD (Romney) ....TIED TO OBAMACARE!!!

right, the republicans nominated Romney, but it was out of political convenience and not popularity among the base. And he took major flack for his historical ties to Mass healthcare reform. All of which points to your previous claims not only being false, but baseless ...

Now do you have anything relevant to add, or are you going to have another tantrum?

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Whining, how is correcting you and pointing out your mistakes whining?

No...not correcting ...you were whining ....and it seems whining is a constant habit with you people.

What actions are those?

Take responsibility for your actions bud....you not Obama ...not democrats ....nominated Romney. Nobody forced you to nominate Romney ....it was your choice....own it!

1) I'm conservative, not republican, and my voting activity is best described as independent

2) I don't understand how you read an accusation in my post that the democrats nominated Romney. I made it pretty clear he was a candidate of convenience that was pushed by the Rep power brokers due to the unelectibility of their popular front runners

3) I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to my rebuttal above, where I outline how Romney was never really popular among the base and took constant flack over his healthcare reform

And this is the crux of your problem ...isn't it?
Learn this ....NOBODY CARES WHAT LABEL YOU USE!!! Nobody was fooled into thinking the TEA PUURTY for example were anything other than the same people who backed Bush for 8 years! Conservative, republican neo-con ...who cares about your labels.....you're the same deranged group obsessed with constantly criticizing Obama ...upsetting the country's welfare ...and constantly whining while you're at it!!

What are you even replying to at this point? I never criticized democrats for attacking Romney. I addressed your claim about Romney's popularity among the GOP base and pointed out his healthcare reform made him extremely unpopular. Which, incidentally, underlines that your above claims to the contrary were false

Would stop and read your tripe for a second. Democrats did what political party's do during every election ...they criticize their opponent...what should democrats do....complement Romney!!:lamo

This argument bud ...is whining .....Romney's tie to Obama-Care was well publicized it was no secret. And the amazement was he may be the only person in the world tied to Obama care ...and like moth-to-light....you guys nominated him! LOL....you just can't make up this stuff.

right, the republicans nominated Romney, but it was out of political convenience and not popularity among the base. And he took major flack for his historical ties to Mass healthcare reform. All of which points to your previous claims not only being false, but baseless ...

Now do you have anything relevant to add, or are you going to have another tantrum?

LOL.....who cares what ...EXCUSE ...you use...who cares?

Again....America have some 300 million people ...and one of them is tied to this law (Obama Care) you claim to hate so much ...and you guys just couldn't find someone else. Again ...the question must be asked how smart are you people?

 

[MarineTpartier]

1. Home depot never said any decision was based on ObamaCare. They said they were cutting costs. Which is why we needed health insurance reform.

So I guess we're going to play this "it was happening anyway" game. Here you go, in case you decide you want to deny it further.
ObamaCare Employer Mandate: A List Of Cuts To Work Hours, Jobs - Investors.com

2. An exchange where you purchase private health insurance isn't "gov't healthcare". You don't know what your talking about.

Did the gov't mandate it or not? Is the website where you purchase it gov't sponsored or not? Do insurance agencies HAVE to sell you coverage or not? It's gov't run. Just because the gov't doesn't actually provide it, doesn't mean it isn't run by them. The gov't has their hands in this all the way up to the elbow.

Because I can read. Subsidies have always been a major part of the healthcare bill.

Show me where it says it.

Please quote it cause I don't see it.

Currently, congressmen and congressional staff participate in the Federal Employee Health Benefit Program, the same as any other federal employee. Since the federal government is technically their employer, the government pays roughly 75% of the cost of their insurance, $5,000-$10,000 per year depending on family size.

But Congress has been saved from that fate. The White House Office of Personnel Management has ruled that the federal government should continue to pay the full employer share of premiums — despite the fact that such payments are not authorized in the health-care law. No doubt that’s a deal that Home Depot employees wish they had

It

 

[Fenton]

J
oe average gets his insurance through his employer and doesn't have to purchase through the exchange. The exchange is specifically for people that don't get offered insurance through their employer.

And even then, many people do will get some help through subsidies. So you're wrong twice.

And please show me a link saying that congress's deductibles are going to be paid for by the government... I have not heard that claim anywhere.

EDIT: Oh yead, it's still the same plan regardless of how it gets paid for. How do you not understand this? The method of payment doesn't change ****. If I buy you a gift or you buy yourself something, it doesn't change what it is. That's not complicated.

Do you just make stuff up as you go along ?

"Joe's " employer dropped coverage on his dependants, or dropped coverage all together.

Kicked down to the exchanges, Jqos

 

[Fenton]

J
oe average gets his insurance through

his employer and doesn't have to purchase through the exchange. The exchange is specifically for people that don't get offered insurance through their employer.

And even then, many people do will get some help through subsidies. So you're wrong twice.

And please show me a link saying that congress's deductibles are going to be paid for by the government... I have not heard that claim anywhere.

EDIT: Oh yead, it's still the same plan regardless of how it gets paid for. How do you not understand this? The method of payment doesn't change ****. If I buy you a gift or you buy yourself something, it doesn't change what it is. That's not complicated.

Do you just make stuff up as you go along ?

"Joe's " employer dropped coverage on his dependants, or dropped coverage all together.

Kicked down to the exchanges, Joes employer doesn't have to comply with the mandate for another year.

For all of the Joes who don't qualify for Subsidies and who do NOT recieve coverage from their employer, they're SOL.

At least Joe knows that his Representitve gets 80% of his Health Insurance Subsidised.

 

[ARealConservative]

Try being less radical and maybe you will.

So i win when I give up on things I want. maybe the problem is your definition of winning is moronic.

Yeah, Obamacare will force you to pay for your own healthcare and help prevent you from becoming a burden on another states taxpayers and resources. Thats why I like it. :mrgreen:

the mandate isn't going to do that.

 

[roughdraft274]

Do you just make stuff up as you go along ?

"Joe's " employer dropped coverage on his dependants, or dropped coverage all together.

Kicked down to the exchanges, Jqos

Subsidies extend to people all the way up to 400% of the poverty line. If he doesn't qualify for a subsidy then he can afford health insurance.

And no, Joe Average didn't get dropped by is employer. The overwhelming majority of americans have the exact same health insurance they did previously. Regardless of what you want to make up.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No...not correcting ...you were whining ....and it seems whining is a constant habit with you people.





Take responsibility for your actions bud....you not Obama ...not democrats ....nominated Romney. Nobody forced you to nominate Romney ....it was your choice....own it!






And this is the crux of your problem ...isn't it?
Learn this ....NOBODY CARES WHAT LABEL YOU USE!!! Nobody was fooled into thinking the TEA PUURTY for example were anything other than the same people who backed Bush for 8 years! Conservative, republican neo-con ...who cares about your labels.....you're the same deranged group obsessed with constantly criticizing Obama ...upsetting the country's welfare ...and constantly whining while you're at it!!




Would stop and read your tripe for a second. Democrats did what political party's do during every election ...they criticize their opponent...what should democrats do....complement Romney!!:lamo

This argument bud ...is whining .....Romney's tie to Obama-Care was well publicized it was no secret. And the amazement was he may be the only person in the world tied to Obama care ...and like moth-to-light....you guys nominated him! LOL....you just can't make up this stuff.







LOL.....who cares what ...EXCUSE ...you use...who cares?

Again....America have some 300 million people ...and one of them is tied to this law (Obama Care) you claim to hate so much ...and you guys just couldn't find someone else. Again ...the question must be asked how smart are you people?

Now do you have anything relevant to add, or are you going to have another tantrum?

well, I guess we can consider that mystery solved

 

[roughdraft274]

So I guess we're going to play this "it was happening anyway" game. Here you go, in case you decide you want to deny it further.
ObamaCare Employer Mandate: A List Of Cuts To Work Hours, Jobs - Investors.com

Did the gov't mandate it or not? Is the website where you purchase it gov't sponsored or not? Do insurance agencies HAVE to sell you coverage or not? It's gov't run. Just because the gov't doesn't actually provide it, doesn't mean it isn't run by them. The gov't has their hands in this all the way up to the elbow.


Show me where it says it.




It

1. It's not government insurance, it's private insurance, and no they don't have to sell it to you. They don't have to be on the exchanges at all if they don't want to.

2. Businesses have been cutting hours and benefits for a long time. Few if any have to do with obamacare.

3. Show you where the bill calls for subsidies? Are you ****ing joking? Do you know anything?
Do You Qualify for Subsidies Under Obamacare? | Fox Business

Subsidies will be available for those making up to 400% of the federal poverty level. For an individual, this tops out at around $45,000 per year, and for a family of four, this cuts off at around $94,000 per year,

4. Your quote says absolutely nothing about deductibles. That's why this argument is so pointless, you don't even know the difference between a premium and a deductible. You have no idea what your talking about. The government doesn't pay congress's deductible.

Please admit that you were wrong on the deductible.

 

[MarineTpartier]

1. It's not government insurance, it's private insurance, and no they don't have to sell it to you. They don't have to be on the exchanges at all if they don't want to.

I'm speaking of the pre-existing conditions portion of the law. Not that all insurance companies have to sell insurance to anyone that wants it.

2. Businesses have been cutting hours and benefits for a long time. Few if any have to do with obamacare.

So that's the reason that all of these businesses (over 300 of them) have been cutting their hours back to just below the ACA mandate? Just the ebb and flow of the market huh? That's laughable.

3. Show you where the bill calls for subsidies? Are you ****ing joking? Do you know anything?

Do You Qualify for Subsidies Under Obamacare? | Fox Business
Quoted from one of my first posts to you during our debate

the ACA states that an employer cannot pay towards premiums nor can it pay towards deductiblesin this case

You and I are not on the same page here. I'm not talking about everyone! I'm talking about Congress people that obviously fall out of the top bracket. Come on man. This whole debate is based on the premise that it pisses me that Congress gets to use the ACA in the same manner that Joe Average does while making 3 times what Joe Average makes to enjoy the help of an employer subsidy.
Salaries | House Press Gallery

4. Your quote says absolutely nothing about deductibles. That's why this argument is so pointless, you don't even know the difference between a premium and a deductible. You have no idea what your talking about. The government doesn't pay congress's deductible. Please admit that you were wrong on the deductible.

I know the difference between a premium and a deductible bro. I will, however, admit I misspoke about this. I looked back through my posts and saw where I began grouping deductible in with premium. My mistake. Now, in keeping with the gridlock on Capital Hill, you must admit that you are sticking your head in the sand about employers cutting hours to just below ACA requirements isn't the result of the ebb and flow of the economy. If not, I will pull my admission of the mistake. How's that sound?

 

[head of joaquin]

Yeah, Obomacare will force you to pay for your own healthcare

Obomacare to "FORCE" you to pay for your own healthcare, no it won't. If you don't buy his forced healthcare he will fine you and you are still able to go to any emergency room you want. Further you can't keep your own Dr., insurance cost is going up for everyone not down as Obama promised. Oh and all the young and healthy people are supposed to buy Obamacare insurance and that is not happening, further you can stay on your parents insurance until your 26, the same age group Obomercare needs to sign up. How stupid is that?



Of course you like it that people can not buy Obomercare insurance because they don't have to until they are sick or injured, then they go and sign up for insurance. And who is that going to cost. Yep the taxpayers. Remember no precondition, that means no one is going to buy health insurance until they are sick or injured. How stupid is that. Think about it, why in the hell would anyone buy health insurance, when you can buy it when you are injured or become sick. When I say anyone I mean the young and old have no reason to buy health insurance when you can buy it when you only need it and then drop it when you don't. Yes, that is Obamacare.

Forgot Obomercare pays subsidies for people that can't afford it. Who is going to pay for the subsidies, yep the taxpayer. The very taxpayer you say you are saving money.

There is no cost saving in Obomercare for anyone. As a result of Obomercare healthcare cost is rising over a trillion over the next 10 yrs, not decreasing a dime. Now who is paying this money, yep the people. You're Obomercare is not saving anyone a dime but in fact is costing everyone more. Thus more Obama failure.

So Obamacare is another failed conservative idea, is that what you're saying.

Who came up with the idea of insurance exchanges and requiring people to buy insurance?

The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate - Forbes

 

[Mycroft]

So Obamacare is another failed conservative idea, is that what you're saying.

Who came up with the idea of insurance exchanges and requiring people to buy insurance?

The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate - Forbes

Who cares who came up with the idea? If Republicans had enacted this piece of crap, then THEY would be at fault. Fortunately, they didn't...unfortunately, the Democrats did. Republicans were smart enough not to try to put this crap into a law...to bad the Democrats are not so smart.

Face it, dude...Democrats own this pile of ****.

 

[head of joaquin]

Who cares who came up with the idea?

Jesus. Now we're supposed to pretend history never happened.

A conservative idea thought up in conservative think tanks, espoused by conservative blowhards like Gingrich and passed by a conservative governor. Sounds like a conservative program to me.

If you're saying that Democrats should never adopt conservative policies since they are always failures, I guess you have a point. Reason enough to continue to refuse to give in to the GOP blackmail currently going on.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Hence, emergency rooms are a woefully insufficient method for providing a lot of the healthcare that a lot of people need.



Interesting how your initial claim carefully omitted the phrase "in part". That's pretty important.

found it

Increased utilization of US hospital emergency departments (EDs) has received considerable
attention from both the health care and policymaking communities in recent years. The
following analysis uses data from the Medical Expenditures Panel Survey (MEPS) in order to
examine the demographic and health characteristics of people who frequently use hospital EDs
and how the risk of being a High ED User varies based on these characteristics.
This analysis finds that persons who frequently use hospital EDs (defined as four or more visits
over two years) are those with anticipated higher needs for health care services – specifically, the
elderly, the poor, and persons living with chronic conditions, all of whom are more likely to be in
poor health. Our analysis finds that 84% of High ED Users live with chronic conditions (Figure
A) and that 31% of High ED Users’ ED visits are related to chronic conditions compared to 16%
for Low ED Users. Furthermore, High ED Users are not obtaining medical services exclusively
at the ED but also utilize outpatient services at a greater rate than Low ED Users, with 86% of
High ED Users having 4 or more outpatient visits compared to 72% for Low ED Users. In
addition, our examination of ED utilization by insurance coverage reveals that the uninsured are
not more likely to frequently visit the ED than those who have insurance. The uninsured, while
making up roughly 15% of the sample population, are responsible for about 14% of total ED
visits and about 12% of aggregate ED expenditures.

Our MEPS-based findings add to a growing body of research based on large national surveys
that suggest that persons who frequently utilize ED services may not be using the ED as a
“substitute” for primary care, but rather appear to be living with chronic conditions and in need
of more health care services overall.

continued here

http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/7696.pdf

 

[Mycroft]

Jesus. Now we're supposed to pretend history never happened.

A conservative idea thought up in conservative think tanks, espoused by conservative blowhards like Gingrich and passed by a conservative governor. Sounds like a conservative program to me.

If you're saying that Democrats should never adopt conservative policies since they are always failures, I guess you have a point. Reason enough to continue to refuse to give in to the GOP blackmail currently going on.

Nobody is pretending history never happened. And I never said Democrats should never adopt conservative policies. I think I've been very clear that Obamacare...no matter who's idea it was...is a crappy policy. The majority of Americans knew that before it was even forced down our throats. But, you know, those Democrats in Congress...and Obama, of course...should have gotten a clue from the Republicans and should never have implemented it.

Since they did, though, it's their baby. They own it.

 

[Born Free]

So Obamacare is another failed conservative idea, is that what you're saying.

Who came up with the idea of insurance exchanges and requiring people to buy insurance?

The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate - Forbes

Tell me again how many Republicans voted for Obamacare. Geee I guess they figured out what a bad idea it was, but the stupid liberals were to dumb to figure that out and passed Obamacare that did not get one Republican vote. And what did you get an Obamacare failure. And while your at it, tell me again how many Republicans voted for Obama's trillion dollar failed stimulus.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

Awe shucks, you guys don't need to be so coy. The AHC act could never have been passed without the success of the trial run that Gov. Romney so kindly ran for us in Mass. In that way alone a Republican was a HUGE help and we thank you for it. He proved once and for all that healthcare reform is a bipartisan effort. Someday you will be singing his praises. Hell you might even nominate him for President again.

You must struggle with the meaning of "you".

Separately, Romney had little to do with Romneycare - that is why he vetoed so much of it.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

NOW they want to say that it was Oh so different....The basic ideas are the same....

Do you understand that there is a difference between catastrophic insurance and comprehensive insurance?

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

I don't remember the exact details of it but the current Obamacare (including individual mandate) minus some minor details was actually conjured by conservative research groups, including the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute, and championed, for a time, by Republicans in the Senate. Then Newt picked the proposed mandate and backed it as an Antidote to HillaryCare.

So what Obama doing is what the most stark conservatives proposed to do in 1993. So one begs the question why all the noise from the very groups that proposed the said plan?

Diving Mullah

Virtually all of the conservative thought that I found on the subject is related to catastrophic care not comprehensive care. It is directed at the free-riders. These are the people who wait until they are sick to buy the insurance that the government is forced to provide. Comparing catastrophic health insurance and comprehensive is not much different that saying that auto insurance is the same as house insurance. The concepts are the same, but very different things.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

Where was Newt on that list of co-sponsors?

Here is the Politifact on it. Somehow I don't see Newt saying anything specific. Newt is a little short on details of what he believes.

PolitiFact | Michele Bachmann says Newt Gingrich backed individual mandate in 1993, 2011

Here is some more history on the act :

Laurie Rubiner and the Individual Mandate | National Review Online!