John Gray warns against a "libertarian utopia in which the state retreats from any concern about personal conduct." But that is not what we need to be concerned about. It is puritans, busybodies, nannies, and other statist do-gooders — in and out of the government — who are the problem.
The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug LegalizationB. The Netherlands
Proponents of legalization almost certainly would cite Amsterdam as the drug Mecca of the Western world. Anyone may go into the restaurants in this city and order marijuana and hashish from a menu; further, heroin and cocaine have been decriminalized for all practical purposes. The police simply leave the users alone. Consequently, health officials estimate that Amsterdam has 7,000 addicts, 20% of whom are foreigners.58 These addicts are responsible for 80% of all property crime in the city, thus necessitating that Amsterdam maintain a police presence far greater than those of cities of comparable size in the United States.59
The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States.60 The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes.61 Nationwide, the number of reported crimes increased to 1.3 million in 1992 from. 812,000 in 1981.62 Faced with public disgust at home over soaring drug related crime and pressure from other European Community countries to strengthen drug laws, Dutch authorities are implementing an aggressive program to reduce drug-linked crimes and disturbances and show new teeth in combatting illegal drug sales.63 Eberhard van der Laan, leader Of the Social Democrats in the Amsterdam City Council says, "People are absolutely fed up with all the troubles caused by drug addicts - car windows broken, noise, whole streets almost given up to the drug problem."64 Legalization advocates claim that marijuana use in Netherlands has not increased since the laws were liberalized, but the number of Amsterdam drug cafes rose from 30 to over 300 in one decade. They also fail to note that daily marijuana use by U.S. youth has declined by 75 percent.65
C. Switzerland
Much like Amsterdam, Switzerland until recently followed a policy of decriminalization. Indeed, a city park in the town of Zurich for many years was allowed to be a haven for drug users - police simply would ignore the problem by claiming that it was better to have all the addicts in one place rather than having them roam throughout the entire city.66 Unsurprisingly, in February of 1992 Switzerland ended this experiment with decriminalization after experiencing an unacceptable increase in use, violence, crime and health costs and consequences.67 Specifically, the number of addicts residing at the park (called Platzspitz) jumped from a few hundred in 1987 to over 20,000, by early 1992.68 Approximately 20% of these addicts were foreigners who came to Zurich to take advantage of the city's lax drug laws.69 In deciding to close the park, city officials cited the increased incidence of crime and prostitution--as Andres Oehler, a municipal spokesperson stated, "it was felt that the situation had got out of control in every sense."70
D. Spain
Since 1983 in Spain, it has been legal to use, but not sell, cocaine and heroin. Recently, however,
Spanish officials have begun a crack-down on drug pushers due to a dramatic increase in the addiction rate.71 Unsurprisingly, Spain and Italy, which also legalized use of cocaine and heroin, have the highest rates of both drug use and overdose of all European countries.72
E. China
Lest we forget the lessons of history, consider that in the late 1800's, opium was legal in China. By 1900, ninety million Chinese were addicted to the drug, and it took fifty years of repressive police measures and rehabilitation to correct the problem.73 Today, opium and other addictive drugs are illegal.74
F. Japan
In the 1950's, Japan was faced with an epidemic of amphetamine use that created half a million addicts. Through socialization and policies aimed at both reducing supply and demand, the number of addicts was decreased to a few thousand within four years.75 A heroin epidemic involving thousands of addicts was dealt with successfully in the 1960's using the same measures. 76
The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug Legalization
Yes, legalizing drugs has such a POSITIVE effect in other countries..
Oh wait, my source is anti-legalized drugs, so it's not to be believed.. only those that PUSH for legalized drugs are acceptable.
Oye, you people and your legalize drugs kick. It's not a solution, it's disaster waiting to happen.
Completely agree - good points.
I think, overall, what happens is that when things are made illegal people ventually forget why they were made illegal - since they're out of the public-mainstream for generations they, then, think they're just being parented by the government and forget that parents set rules for good reasons and are wise with years of experience.
While on one hand I agree with the principle of "self control" and do not like Government interference...
Drugs are one of those things I kinda have to side with saying "No sorry, it's just not right".
Can't have it both ways. You either believe that the government has a legitimate role in controlling the citizens' behavior-- when the rights of others are not being directly violated-- or that it does not. You consistently take positions affirming that it does have a legitimate role in controlling the citizens' lives, and then trot out "self control" and government non-interference whenever it suits you.
Eh? Care to elaborate on my "when ever it suits you" comment?
I mean, when you support a law or a government program, it's because the alternative is "just not right." When you oppose it, it's because of "personal responsibility" and government should stay out of our business. Case in point, your views on the legalization of drugs, compared to your views on government health care. In one case, the government has a compelling interest in our health and our private lives, in the other it's our responsibility and the government has no business getting involved.
Which is it?
The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug Legalization
Yes, legalizing drugs has such a POSITIVE effect in other countries..
Oh wait, my source is anti-legalized drugs, so it's not to be believed.. only those that PUSH for legalized drugs are acceptable.
Oye, you people and your legalize drugs kick. It's not a solution, it's disaster waiting to happen.
Mr. Viccio, I would have to call into question the examples you cited, because in all those cases (netherlands included, if I recall rightly) while possession and use were legalized, dealing and selling were not (even if often overlooked).
The primary benefits that many of us see, from FULL decriminalization (both supply and demand) are:
1. Destroy the drug black market, impoverish the dealers and gangs and cartels, ruin their power base, and totally eviscerate them by making drugs legally available from ABC stores.
2. A large part of the price of drugs is the illegality of dealing/selling them, and the risks thereof....decriminalize and normalize supply and the price will drop, and the need for users to commit crimes to obtain drugs should decline also.
And I'd add, libertarian-wise, that if some druggie tries to steal your lawnmower anyway, you just cap his ass with your .45 :mrgreen: "Hey you! Outta the gene pool!"
The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug Legalization
Yes, legalizing drugs has such a POSITIVE effect in other countries..
Oh wait, my source is anti-legalized drugs, so it's not to be believed.. only those that PUSH for legalized drugs are acceptable.
Oye, you people and your legalize drugs kick. It's not a solution, it's disaster waiting to happen.
In all of the above listed countries, crime rates due to drug use/black market continued and in some cases rose. The Netherlands has the highest crime rate (or was it amsterdam) of the region. So the supposed drop in crime rate is merely wishful thinking.
You don't get the effects many of us are looking for with decriminalizing USE and simply possession only, which if I understand correctly is all these countries did.
Im always amazed how you social conservatives bitch, piss, whine and moan about the liberals controlling your money but then when it comes to issues dealing with ones behavior your the first ones to cry to the government alongside some of the left. At least I have the decency to stay consistent. Like I told Jerry since you and awhole host of people view most of the pro-legalization crowd to be either liberals, communists or socialist you guys should be very for legalization. Since by the conservative stereotype that only leftists do drugs, if the drugs were legalized then only leftists take them. Which then they have the chances to die via overdosing or getting behind the wheel and getting into a fatal accident. With more leftists dead and/or killing themselves over drugs you will have less of them, I would think having less liberals would make some of you social conservatives happy.
Pardon, but I think you are not acknowleging the fact that only USE was decriminalized. The supply chain remained illegal, and the black market remained in place, and the prices remained high, and the dealers and cartels retained their power.
You don't get the effects many of us are looking for with decriminalizing USE and simply possession only, which if I understand correctly is all these countries did.
If you can order a joint or Hashish from a menu... oh you can, then your point is moot.
Except that you completely misconstrue my problem with legalization. IT IS NOT A SOLUTION IT IS MERELY A DIFFERENT FORM OF THE SAME FREAKING PROBLEM.
Legalization would have ZERO positive effects other then to give Libertarians a reason to crow.
Legalization would have ZERO positive effects
Except that you completely misconstrue my problem with legalization. IT IS NOT A SOLUTION IT IS MERELY A DIFFERENT FORM OF THE SAME FREAKING PROBLEM.
Legalization would have ZERO positive effects other then to give Libertarians a reason to crow.
So continue with your hyper partisan ranting Chevy about how "consistent" you are.
Since this is your main reason for keeping drugs illegal would you be in favor of also making cigarettes and alcohol illegal? After all, both of them hurt society in tremendous ways while having very few positive aspects.But for the record, drug use hurts society as a whole. Be it legally (should we legalize it) or illegally, the issue is a tough one. Either way has serious drawbacks but the experiments with legalizing drugs in other countries shows that path is not the solution we are looking for.
Since this is your main reason for keeping drugs illegal would you be in favor of also making cigarettes and alcohol illegal? After all, both of them hurt society in tremendous ways while having very few positive aspects.
Of course everyone knows we tried making alcohol illegal, it was called Prohibition. It didn't work worth a darn. According to my studies, alcohol abuse actually increased; the Mob and other criminal organizations became powerful and wealthy providing illicit booze, and bought entire city governments to covertly support their trade, and engaged in terrible violence to protect their illegal business.
Sound familiar?
When Prohibition ended, the Mob lost most of its wealth and power and became a mere shadow of its former formidability.
There is no reason not to think that a FULL legalization of drugs, including the supply chain, would not have the same devastating effect on the drug cartels and street gangs.
There's a huge difference between Gangs and the Maffia and Mobs, etc - economical, political, idealogy, and means of organizing and netting profit, etc etc, between the two separate what they really are.
The only thing they really have in common is that they center around committing illegal acts and violence.
It's impossible to compare one to another and form a solid conclusions about what might or might not happen if the same that brought down one was applied to another.
Do you relaly think that memebers of a gang are going to dissolve and go their own separate, peaceful ways if one of their facets of functioning (selling drugs) is removed?
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