The mess that is Italy

[Higgins86]

BBC News - Italy election: Nation in dramatic situation - Bersani


Political gridlock once again in Italy as the shambolic state of their political system comes into play again. Spain described it as a "jump to nowhere" which is pretty much spot on, obviously the Italians people didnt read the Script that France and Germany had written for them.

 

[Canell]

So... let me summarize...

Italy is a mess.
Spain is a mess.
Greece is a mess.
Bulgaria is a mess.
Hungary - pretty much a mess.
Portugal - probably a mess too.
France is broke, so a mess.

Damn it! :doh
WTH is going on here?

 

[Higgins86]

So... let me summarize...

Italy is a mess.
Spain is a mess.
Greece is a mess.
Bulgaria is a mess.
Hungary - pretty much a mess.
Portugal - probably a mess too.
France is broke, so a mess.

Damn it! :doh
WTH is going on here?

yeh I see a pattern emerging lol. In all seriousness though the election results shocked many people (including myself) as its just such a step backwards, the Italian people are so angry at their own Government that a comedian picked up 25% of the vote....

 

[Canell]

yeh I see a pattern emerging lol. In all seriousness though the election results shocked many people (including myself) as its just such a step backwards, the Italian people are so angry at their own Government that a comedian picked up 25% of the vote....

Italy is a diverse country, that's a tradition. The problem arises when politicians try to turn it into one entity under one law. That's so non Italian.

 

[Grant]

Italy is a diverse country, that's a tradition. The problem arises when politicians try to turn it into one entity under one law. That's so non Italian.

But so EU.

 

[Rainman05]

You guys do understand that this is a political gridlock situation in a parliamentary republic with proportional voting system (which is the best kind of system). This will most likely mean that we will see either a minority government or a mass coalition to form a majority government. Yes, the negotiations make take anything between days to months, but eventually, things will get to working.

The problem lies in that who will work in what positions? I can't imagine Berlusconi going for anything less than his former job and if the other major party (center left) gives him that... they will basically betray their constituents who voted against Berlusconi and his party (which is a center-right party).

And since the party that came third, the comedian party, said he won't make any deals with anyone... that means that either the center-left and the center-right will have to shake hands to make a majority coalition for governing, or the largest of the two, which I think the center left one, will have a minority governing.

However... if Berlusconi shakes hands with Mario Monti's party (the guy who was appointed by the EU) they will achieve the larger minority in Parliament and they will form the ruling governing body. But Monti pretty much would compromise his public image and his EU backers if he goes with Berlusconi... so yeah... complex stuff.

It is interesting to see how this plays out.

If all else fails, there can be a new set of elections.

 

[Red_Dave]

BBC News - Italy election: Nation in dramatic situation - Bersani


Political gridlock once again in Italy as the shambolic state of their political system comes into play again. Spain described it as a "jump to nowhere" which is pretty much spot on, obviously the Italians people didnt read the Script that France and Germany had written for them.

Elect the head of state using a run off system like a French then you wont have to deal with unstable coalitions

 

[Hyena]

Personally I was surprised that Monti got even 10% of votes, he starved the italians!!

Beppe Grillo (the comedian) was not a surprise instead, peoples are tired of the same old politicians, and Grillo is the only one that threat to send them all back to home. This is why so much persons voted him.

But what a lot of people don't know about him are some unhappy words like:

- Rita Levi Montalcini was an old wh*re
- Informations are controlled by Jews
- Peoples in Iran live much better than here (his wife is Iranian....)
- The woman in Iran is the center of the family (yeah, like the canary is the center of the cage I would add...)
- HIV/AIDS does not exist

And he even said that activists of CasaPound (neo-nazis) would be welcome in his party.

These are reasons why I refused to vote him. I could also add that all his speeches (even the more complex) could be summarized in just one word: "vaffanculo"

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Personally I was surprised that Monti got even 10% of votes, he starved the italians!!

Beppe Grillo (the comedian) was not a surprise instead, peoples are tired of the same old politicians, and Grillo is the only one that threat to send them all back to home. This is why so much persons voted him.

But what a lot of people don't know about him are some unhappy words like:

- Rita Levi Montalcini was an old wh*re
- Informations are controlled by Jews
- Peoples in Iran live much better than here (his wife is Iranian....)
- The woman in Iran is the center of the family (yeah, like the canary is the center of the cage I would add...)
- HIV/AIDS does not exist

And he even said that activists of CasaPound (neo-nazis) would be welcome in his party.

These are reasons why I refused to vote him. I could also add that all his speeches (even the more complex) could be summarized in just one word: "vaffanculo"

You're right, this side of Mr Grillo has not been highlighted much in media over here.

 

[Kindness]

I hope this becomes a catalyst for change -- the fall of the neoliberal system and corrupt political parties, and a transformation toward a more just, more human economic and political system.

 

[Higgins86]

I just cant believe they bought into Berlusconi's anti-austerity stance with promises of tax returns/tax breaks etc. Its a crime that the old crook is back in centre of Italian politics.

 

[wolfie]

You're right, this side of Mr Grillo has not been highlighted much in media over here.

He'd probably rob you..like all politicians..

But at least you'd get a laugh..

Bit like Boris Johnson..

 

[wolfie]

But so EU.

It's always going to be a power struggle..

There are some big ego's out there!!

 

[Emanuel78]

It's always going to be a power struggle..

There are some big ego's out there!!

The real novelty of 2013 elections is the Five Stars Movement, and the stunning percentages reached are bringing turmoil to the traditional political forces. The Five Stars Movement has been able to differentiate its political offer and challenge the kingdom of the former mass parties, steered by a leader who battles with unrivaled stamina and language properties – even though not exactly Cicero in elegance. Beppe Grillo created an online community that was able to mobilise and make public every single step they took. They openly criticised the incumbent political class as being corrupted, nepotist and unfit to drive the country out of the mud of economic depression. Their slogans have been strong and direct, calling the political “dinosaurs” to resign and retire. The Movement argues for direct, web-based democracy, even though Beppe Grillo, an ex-comedian, sometimes exaggerates and swerves into populism and demagogy. The power of a party – they do not like to be called party! – born around the founder’s blog lies all in the polished and naive faces of its candidates. Far from being a candidate himself, Grillo has suggested online primaries to fill the lists of candidates to the Parliament, calls for strict rules that prohibits explicitly to be part of the mainstream media and broadcasts everything online, encouraging discussions on forums and meet-ups organised using the web. The newly elected MPs of his party have never been classical party members. They are nice common people, young and active, apparently driven into the political arena by a real will to change the traditional never changing environment.

 

[wolfie]

The real novelty of 2013 elections is the Five Stars Movement, and the stunning percentages reached are bringing turmoil to the traditional political forces. The Five Stars Movement has been able to differentiate its political offer and challenge the kingdom of the former mass parties, steered by a leader who battles with unrivaled stamina and language properties – even though not exactly Cicero in elegance. Beppe Grillo created an online community that was able to mobilise and make public every single step they took. They openly criticised the incumbent political class as being corrupted, nepotist and unfit to drive the country out of the mud of economic depression. Their slogans have been strong and direct, calling the political “dinosaurs” to resign and retire. The Movement argues for direct, web-based democracy, even though Beppe Grillo, an ex-comedian, sometimes exaggerates and swerves into populism and demagogy. The power of a party – they do not like to be called party! – born around the founder’s blog lies all in the polished and naive faces of its candidates. Far from being a candidate himself, Grillo has suggested online primaries to fill the lists of candidates to the Parliament, calls for strict rules that prohibits explicitly to be part of the mainstream media and broadcasts everything online, encouraging discussions on forums and meet-ups organised using the web. The newly elected MPs of his party have never been classical party members. They are nice common people, young and active, apparently driven into the political arena by a real will to change the traditional never changing environment.

Sounds great...how long do you think it will be before they are the same as those before them???

Money....

They may be young and vibrant now...Until they are voted in...

 

[PeteEU]

I just cant believe they bought into Berlusconi's anti-austerity stance with promises of tax returns/tax breaks etc. Its a crime that the old crook is back in centre of Italian politics.

He was never out of Italian politics. His party was always in parliament and he still controls 90+% of the Italian media market.

 

[Viv]

So... let me summarize...

Italy is a mess.
Spain is a mess.
Greece is a mess.
Bulgaria is a mess.
Hungary - pretty much a mess.
Portugal - probably a mess too.
France is broke, so a mess.

Damn it! :doh
WTH is going on here?

You forgot Belgium. Which struggled with a mess for a while at the last election.

I haven't looked at it in detail, but skimming over, I'm wondering in what ways this situation with Italy is different from Belgium? I have heard suggestions Italy should rebuild its political system from scratch to resolve it. But other countries have coalitions and its not ideal but no big deal really. How is this so different?

Elect the head of state using a run off system like a French then you wont have to deal with unstable coalitions

Yeah, why don't they.

Personally I was surprised that Monti got even 10% of votes, he starved the italians!!

How did he starve them? What has been going on? I haven't been in Italy for over a year.

Naples and that whole coastline is not impressive from some angles. I didn't want to get off the train. Is the north south economic divide still as obvious or is it leveling out?

Of course you have your own culture. I don't know another country where people would accept what Berlusconi was up to and then almost move onto an actual comedian.

Why is corruption and mafia activity not rooted out?

Making a killing on contracts: how Italy's Mafia has plundered EU building funds
The suspension of a city council in southern Italy has shone a light on how the EU poured hundreds of millions of euros into Italy's Mafia black hole. Making a killing on contracts: how Italy's Mafia has plundered EU building funds - Telegraph

That aspect of Italy is really annoying as I'd consider living there, apart from that black cloud. What are house prices doing at the moment?:2razz:

 

[Rainman05]

I just cant believe they bought into Berlusconi's anti-austerity stance with promises of tax returns/tax breaks etc. Its a crime that the old crook is back in centre of Italian politics.

Like you say: Omg, I can't believe Berlusconi won 30% of the vote, the damn crook,

People in Italy can say: Omg, I can't believe Obama won a second term.

Why?

Because despite Berlusconi being an absolute loser, while his party was in power, Italy's GDP doubled. Why? Well, not because Berlusconi is an economic genious, but because there are people in his party who know how to get stuff done. And while Berlusconi is the voice and the image of the party, it does not represent the substance of the party, at all. And people vote for that.

Also, he owns a news outlet and a football team... so he is popular among another, less informed demographic too.

 

[Rainman05]

Elect the head of state using a run off system like a French then you wont have to deal with unstable coalitions

France is a semi-presidential republic. While indeed, the head of state will be elected by popular vote, and hence, will always have a head of state, in this situation you will still have no government. Which is the main problem...

 

[wolfie]

Like you say: Omg, I can't believe Berlusconi won 30% of the vote, the damn crook,

People in Italy can say: Omg, I can't believe Obama won a second term.

Why?

Because despite Berlusconi being an absolute loser, while his party was in power, Italy's GDP doubled. Why? Well, not because Berlusconi is an economic genious, but because there are people in his party who know how to get stuff done. And while Berlusconi is the voice and the image of the party, it does not represent the substance of the party, at all. And people vote for that.

Also, he owns a news outlet and a football team... so he is popular among another, less informed demographic too.

Yep..Berlusconi likes partying alright...he is not an economic genius..he was taking the piss..unlimitless wealth...

Can you imagine if Obama..or Cameron had wild sex parties???

He was a joke..He fiddled whilst Rome was burning...

 

[PeteEU]

Also, he owns a news outlet and a football team... so he is popular among another, less informed demographic too.

Not A news outlet... most of them.

 

[PeteEU]

Elect the head of state using a run off system like a French then you wont have to deal with unstable coalitions

Ehhh hate to point this out but... the Italian head of state is the Italian President who is elected by parliament, the senate and the regional governments.

As for government... a run off system would not work imo. The problem with the Italian system .. is that there are so many parties and views and they cant agree on anything. Hence a majority government is rare as hell and the minority governments that are formed are often weak because of infighting.

 

[Rainman05]

Yep..Berlusconi likes partying alright...he is not an economic genius..he was taking the piss..unlimitless wealth...

Can you imagine if Obama..or Cameron had wild sex parties???

He was a joke..He fiddled whilst Rome was burning...

It doesn't change the fact that his party was alright. Well, at least the people who actually worked in government and in governing the country. Italy is a parliamentary republic. People vote for the members of Parliament (MPs), and people want the party that Berlusconi is part of to be in charge, or rather, 30 % of the voters want that. Because they did an OK job, doubled the GDP of Italy in 7 years. Over 1 tril euros.

Berlusconi is just the mascot of the party. Why they don't get rid of him and replace him with someone else... its anyones' guess. I think they need his media influence to get out there, and his voters (there are people who actually do like Berlusconi) and maybe, just maybe... Berlusconi has some dirt on some of the high officials there.

But yes, Berlusconi has taken the piss at a lot of things and he doesn't deserve to be in Italian politics. I am just trying to differentiate between him, and his party, in the context that Italy is a Parliamentary republic.

 

[Hyena]

How did he starve them?

By adding taxes everywhere. He even proposed to tax carbonated drinks!
Some entrepreneurs even committed suicide because they were unable to pay for their debts.

Is the north south economic divide still as obvious or is it leveling out?

Always the same. This country will never get better.

Of course you have your own culture.

That is the biggest problem of Italy.

I don't know another country where people would accept what Berlusconi was up to and then almost move onto an actual comedian.

Sometimes I think Italians are simply stupid. There are peoples who vote for Berlusconi just because he is the presidend of MILAN soccer team.

Why is corruption and mafia activity not rooted out?

Good question.

That aspect of Italy is really annoying as I'd consider living there, apart from that black cloud.

An advise: stay where you are.
People here dreams to leave. This country is good only if you are rich.

What are house prices doing at the moment?:2razz:

It depends, big cities are very expensive. I live in the middle of center and perifery, an 80 square meters apartment could cost you 1.000€ per month.
In little cities everything is cheaper (sometimes very cheaper), but you have to move for any need.

 

[German guy]

It doesn't change the fact that his party was alright. Well, at least the people who actually worked in government and in governing the country. Italy is a parliamentary republic. People vote for the members of Parliament (MPs), and people want the party that Berlusconi is part of to be in charge, or rather, 30 % of the voters want that. Because they did an OK job, doubled the GDP of Italy in 7 years. Over 1 tril euros.

Berlusconi is just the mascot of the party. Why they don't get rid of him and replace him with someone else... its anyones' guess. I think they need his media influence to get out there, and his voters (there are people who actually do like Berlusconi) and maybe, just maybe... Berlusconi has some dirt on some of the high officials there.

But yes, Berlusconi has taken the piss at a lot of things and he doesn't deserve to be in Italian politics. I am just trying to differentiate between him, and his party, in the context that Italy is a Parliamentary republic.

Wasn't it Berlusconi and his government which spent like drunken sailors and brought to country at the brink of collapse in the euro crisis, due to this excessive spending, and especially the debts they took?

I don't know the details, but from what I gathered in the media over here, Berlusconi's economic policy is considered one of the worst next to Greece.