The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

[hazlnut]

The legalized abortion and crime effect is the controversial theory that legal abortion reduces crime. Several well-known studies have shown that "unwanted children" are more likely to become criminals and that an inverse correlation is observed between the availability of abortion and subsequent crime.

In 2001 John Donohue of Yale University and Steven Levitt of University of Chicago published a paper that offers evidence that the falling United States crime rates of the 1990s were in part caused by the legalization of abortion due to the Roe v. Wade court decision of 1973.

Study Abstract

"We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime."

The relationship between crime rates and abortion is one that is easy to understand if you've ever taken a sociology class but hard to prove if you've ever taken a statistics or economics class.

This report was not the first time this claim had been made. The 1972 Rockefeller Commission on Population and the American Future cited research purporting that the children of women denied an abortion “turned out to have been registered more often with psychiatric services, engaged in more antisocial and criminal behavior, and have been more dependent on public assistance.”

A study by Hans Forssman and Inga Thuwe was cited by the Rockefeller Commission and is probably the first serious empirical research on this topic. They studied the children of 188 women who were denied abortions from 1939 to 1941 at the hospital in Gothenburg, Sweden. They compared these “unwanted” children to another group – the next children born after each of the unwanted children at the hospital. The "unwanted" children were more likely to grow up in adverse conditions, such as having divorced parents or being raised in foster homes and were more likely to become delinquents and engaged in crime.

Opponents generally dispute these statistics, and point to negative effects of abortion on society.

 

[talloulou]

Culling undesirables, seriously? :doh

 

[DarkWizard12]

Culling undesirables, seriously? :doh

So, all because a mother doesn't want a child, we immediatly judge the fetus to be a "criminal" worthy of "death".

how the hell does that make sense in the first place?

 

[hazlnut]

So, all because a mother doesn't want a child, we immediatly judge the fetus to be a "criminal" worthy of "death".

how the hell does that make sense in the first place?

DarkWizard, unless you know a spell to make knowledge jump into your head through your earhole, then, like the rest of us, you must read...

Sorry.

 

[talloulou]

DarkWizard, unless you know a spell to make knowledge jump into your head through your earhole, then, like the rest of us, you must read...

Sorry.

His point was valid. Even if it was absolutely proven with sound statistical analysis with solid cause/effect rationale (which it's not), it wouldn't matter. Culling undesirables is wholly unacceptable.

Best to stick with the it's my body and it'll die if I want it to argument vs. trying to suggest it's morally justified because they would have been losers anyway.

 

[RightinNYC]

Which is basically why I don't get riled about abortion. If you want an abortion, you probably shouldn't be raising a kid. If you're forced to have that kid, odds are good that that kid will suck.

/billbennett

 

[RightinNYC]

His point was valid. Even if it was absolutely proven with sound statistical analysis with solid cause/effect rationale (which it's not), it wouldn't matter.

His point assumed that everyone agreed it was murder and that the baby had been judged a criminal.

Caulling undesirables is wholly unacceptble.

You think it's wrong that 90% of women pregnant with down syndrome kids decide to abort?

What about the parents who have too many fetii and have to have "selective reductions"?

 

[talloulou]

His point assumed that everyone agreed it was murder and that the baby had been judged a criminal.

If you use their statistical likelihood of becoming a criminal as a means of justifying the taking of their life it does become a sort of fetal capital punishment.

You think it's wrong that 90% of women pregnant with down syndrome kids decide to abort?

Yeah actually I do. What was so wrong with some Downe Syndrome kids around? Back in the day there was one in most every neighborhood. So what?

What about the parents who have too many fetii and have to have "selective reductions"?

I would suggest they not have so many inserted in the first place. Litters are rare without in vitro.

 

[B L Zeebub]

I remember a case many years ago in your country, where the perp was up for the death pen, he had committed acts of rape and murder.

His family tree for generations was littered in a predictable fashion with Rapist, pedo's, killers, robbers, ect ect.

His lawyer argued successfully that the state had not exercised it duty of care to the innocents by intervention, with the use of selective sterilization

I think the charges were reduced to what we call manslaughter.


Eugenics was practice in Scandinavian countries pre Hitler giving it a bad rep.

I support it if only to stop those Maury Povich type shows "Who's the Daddy"

 

[hazlnut]

His point was valid. Even if it was absolutely proven with sound statistical analysis with solid cause/effect rationale (which it's not), it wouldn't matter. Culling undesirables is wholly unacceptable.

Well honey, then it's a good thing that's NOT what it says at all.

Best to stick with the it's my body and it'll die if I want it to argument vs. trying to suggest it's morally justified because they would have been losers anyway.

NO. You know what's best? Reading! Reading and learning before commenting.

To me, the study gives us a better understanding of the tragedy of an unwanted, neglected, and abused child. To me, it shows the consequences of absolutes. God gave us minds to consider these difficult situations, search our hearts and our minds and hopefully do what's right. Why is this so difficult for some people to do?

I would not use anything in this study to justify a late term abortion. I have said in post after post that I am for fewer late-terms.

But the morning after pill and first-terms. It is not taking a human life IMO. These studies show what happens when this choice is taken away from teens and irresponsible adults.

Don't be a like Bush. Read.

 

[RightinNYC]

If you use their statistical likelihood of becoming a criminal as a means of justifying the taking of their life it does become a sort of fetal capital punishment.

Who's using their statistical likelihood of being a criminal as justification for the decision to kill them? I'm arguing that the statistical likelihood is a justification for imposing a policy that allows women to decide to kill them.

Yeah actually I do. What was so wrong with some Downe Syndrome kids around? Back in the day there was one in most every neighborhood. So what?

There's nothing wrong with having them around, but it's obviously a suboptimal outcome.

What about kids with more serious things. Spina bifida? Anencephaly?

I defy anyone to google image "anencephaly" and tell me that if the doctor told them their fetus looked like that, they wouldn't abort. Be warned, it's ****ing terrifying and may give you nightmares.

I would suggest they not have so many inserted in the first place. Litters are rare without in vitro.

What about cases where it's an accident? What about those that are natural?

 

[talloulou]

Well honey, then it's a good thing that's NOT what it says at all.

Honey? Seriously? :roll:

NO. You know what's best? Reading! Reading and learning before commenting.

To me, the study gives us a better understanding of the tragedy of an unwanted, neglected, and abused child. To me, it shows the consequences of absolutes. God gave us minds to consider these difficult situations, search our hearts and our minds and hopefully do what's right. Why is this so difficult for some people to do?

I would not use anything in this study to justify a late term abortion. I have said in post after post that I am for fewer late-terms.

But the morning after pill and first-terms. It is not taking a human life IMO. These studies show what happens when this choice is taken away from teens and irresponsible adults.

Don't be a like Bush. Read.

I'm not against birth control pills or even the morning after pill. I dislike abortion but have said repeatedly I'd compromise with a 12 week cut off date except in cases of fetal/mother health. That exception would of course be genuine health issues - "I don't want a baby, I waited too long, and it's causing mental duress" would not cut it.

I'd prefer women just wise up and use birth control. They're quite effective
little pills. If you know you're not in any position to have a baby then go with the pill/condom combo. Bullet proof.

Rather than argue about the horror of unwanted children and point to studies which demonize folks who haven't even been born yet I'd rather fight to get birth control sold over the counter and fight to have both pills and condoms be cheap, cheap, cheap. Perhaps it's naive but I'm hoping that cost is an issue and it's not just laziness.

All that said, no I do not think it is acceptable to even discuss how crappy these aborted individuals might have turned out had they been allowed to live. It demonizes them when the onus should be, must be, on us to quit being assholes and use the ridiculously easily accessible pills and condoms. Arguing that some folks are losers and in all likelihood their spawn would be cull worthy too is an unnecessary ridiculous verbal attack on the offspring in order to make taking their lives more palatable.

What I would really like to see is folks starting to get pissed that there really is a ridiculously easy solution to the entire abortion debate and start holding people accountable.

Abortion should be shameful. You screwed up. You got pregnant. I don't care what anyone says -it's easy to not get pregnant.

That's what I want to hear. That's how people should talk. The venom should be directed at those who deserve it. Not a gestating fetus. Put some freaking shame back in abortion and maybe women and men will start taking birth control/condom combos seriously instead of just declaring..."oops, my god damn body my choice." Meanwhile the guy sits there nodding, "Yeah, uh your body, your choice;" thankful that ultimately he doesn't have to take any responsibility for that dumb ****. The decision wasn't his. Cop out.

Let's look at this crap:

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[9]

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[9]

• Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.[9]

• About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives. Most of these women have practiced contraception in the past.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

So the first group used something during the month. There's no indication they used it correctly or consistently. They just got in that category by agreeing, "Yeah at some point I used something during the month." :roll: Good lord.

The second group used nothing during the month.

The last group never used anything, ever.

Those are some freaking shameful statistics. Imagine if these morons were shamed into taking birth control seriously. The whole abortion problem would largely go away. Pill/condom combo - bullet proof.

 

[hazlnut]

I'd prefer women just wise up and use birth control. They're quite effective
little pills. If you know you're not in any position to have a baby then go with the pill/condom combo. Bullet proof.

Rather than argue about the horror of unwanted children and point to studies which demonize folks who haven't even been born yet I'd rather fight to get birth control sold over the counter and fight to have both pills and condoms be cheap, cheap, cheap. Perhaps it's naive but I'm hoping that cost is an issue and it's not just laziness.

Birth control. Interesting.

Steven Levitt may agree with you:

A second scenario in which low abortion rates don’t lead to high crime is an increase in reliable birth control. For instance, following the increased spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases in the 1990s, condom use may have risen. More condoms would lead to fewer conceptions, including fewer unwanted conceptions. The result would be both a lower abortion rate and a lower number of unwanted births.

All that said, no I do not think it is acceptable to even discuss how crappy these aborted individuals might have turned out had they been allowed to live. It demonizes them when the onus should be, must be, on us to quit being assholes and use the ridiculously easily accessible pills and condoms. Arguing that some folks are losers and in all likelihood their spawn would be cull worthy too is an unnecessary ridiculous verbal attack on the offspring in order to make taking their lives more palatable.

As I said that's NOT what the studies are about. If took a look you'd see that. It's not about demonizing, culling, or anything like that.

Abortion should be shameful. You screwed up. You got pregnant. I don't care what anyone says -it's easy to not get pregnant.

You are really out of touch with what women/girls go through when making this difficult decision. You hear all the pro-lifer cynical stories of callus women making emotionless decisions. They are the exception not the rule.

 

[talloulou]

You are really out of touch with what women/girls go through when making this difficult decision. You hear all the pro-lifer cynical stories of callus women making emotionless decisions. They are the exception not the rule.

I'm hardly out of touch. I am a woman myself. I dealt with an entire decade of successfully not getting pregnant. I took not getting pregnant seriously. I also know tons of women, friends and family, and have an actual understanding of how many women and men simply do not take it seriously. I also know the attitudes of women who've had abortions range from, "It's my f-ing body and I defy you to say **** about my decision," to embarrassingly admitting to family and friends that yes they have had an abortion and looking at you with pleading eyes hoping you'll tell them it's no biggie so they can keep telling themselves that and believe it. And rarely are any women always one extreme or the other. Far more commonly depending on what's happening in their life their emotions can range from one extreme to the other while contemplating their own abortions. Meanwhile the men get off free because ultimately it was never their decision so whether it was morally wrong or not - it's not on them at the end of the day.

They need to be taught from a young age that they're an asshole if they don't take proper precautions. That needs to be literally taught
and culturally agreed upon. Because what we have now is generations of women raised on the notion that it's their body and their business all chuck full of attitude and too carefree about not getting pregnant because they have the abortion safety net. They also have lots of socially acceptable circular abortion arguments where they are taught that it's not a life inside them, or not a being, or not a human being, or not a person.

Then they get knocked up, have to go cash in hand to the butcher, and all the culturally indoctrinated b.s. comes crashing down on their dimwitted heads as they fork over the cash to have their own offspring terminated and purged from their bodies.

I say we bring the shame back. Rather than teaching them b.c. doesn't work and indoctrinating them into the whole unwanted guest in my uterus spiel teach these kids they can keep from getting pregnant and they're an asshole if they don't.

My two cents anyway.

 

[B L Zeebub]

I am a woman myself.

With ref to my comments about your largesse with facts, Prove it!:lol:

 

[Jerry]

With ref to my comments about your largesse with facts, Prove it!:lol:

Bro, read her post....no man could write that.

 

[talloulou]

With ref to my comments about your largesse with facts, Prove it!:lol:

You best not be suggesting I come off butch, mister. :rofl

 

[B L Zeebub]

You best not be suggesting I come off butch, mister. :rofl

Darling I have never seen you "come off" or even read any factual report on your "coming off activities" so how may I form a conclusion

 

[B L Zeebub]

Bro, read her post....no man could write that.

Manders you have lead a sheltered life

 

[joko104]

Studies also show African Americans are more likely to commit crimes. Planned Parenthood, the Vatican of pro-choice, originally was for the purpose of encouraging blacks to have abortions.

Change "unwanted" to "African American" and you come up with the wink-wink point you're making.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Change "unwanted" to "African American" and you come up with the wink-wink point you're making.

If you equalize for having had two parents in the home as a child, the crime rate between black and white Americans is nearly identical. Abortion and crime both disproportionately affect black Americans... but they also both disproportionately affect the children of single parents.

The fact that black Americans are more likely to grow up in single-parent households does not mean that wishing to see fewer children raised in such households is an attack against black Americans.

 

[DarkWizard12]

His point was valid. Even if it was absolutely proven with sound statistical analysis with solid cause/effect rationale (which it's not), it wouldn't matter. Culling undesirables is wholly unacceptable.

Best to stick with the it's my body and it'll die if I want it to argument vs. trying to suggest it's morally justified because they would have been losers anyway.

Isn't there a term for that exactly, errr, Eugenics? I don't think it ended up very pretty....

 

[Jerry]

If you equalize for having had two parents in the home as a child, the crime rate between black and white Americans is nearly identical. Abortion and crime both disproportionately affect black Americans... but they also both disproportionately affect the children of single parents.

The fact that black Americans are more likely to grow up in single-parent households does not mean that wishing to see fewer children raised in such households is an attack against black Americans.

Wait, so, legal abortion will lower the black population?

Hmmm.....how about Asians?

 

[RightinNYC]

If you equalize for having had two parents in the home as a child, the crime rate between black and white Americans is nearly identical. Abortion and crime both disproportionately affect black Americans... but they also both disproportionately affect the children of single parents.

Seriously? I would be very interested in seeing a link for this.

 

[Edify_Always_In_All_Ways]

Wait, so, legal abortion will lower the black population?

Hmmm.....how about Asians?

Did he say anything like that at all? Wasn't in the post I read. Legal abortion presumably lowers the number of children in single-parent households, white and black alike. Where'd you get the other stuff from?