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The idea about human evolution that stumps creationists

ecofarm said:
The most recent common ancestor of ape and man is 60 million years ago, when we were proto simians.
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That is nowhere near an intelligent conclusion. I know, we have had a 100cc drop in brain size the last 50,000 years, but that's no excuse.

5-8 million years ago. That's when the human and chimp lineages split. Humans and gorillas, 9 million years ago. Humans and orangutans, 15 million years ago. Best estimate.
 
CEngelbrecht said:
That's exactly what we can. In fact, nothing else makes any sense.
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First, chimps are the result of evolution since the split. They're not frozen in time. Second, chimps are not human ancestors. Not modern chimps. Some species of chimp out there, 20 million years ago, was us. But only one species. Not the ones today and not the ancestors of those today.
 
ecofarm said:
First, chimps are the result of evolution since the split. They're not frozen in time. Second, chimps are not human ancestors. Not modern chimps. Some species of chimp out there, 20 million years ago, was us. But only one species. Not the ones today and not the ancestors of those today.
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And yet we share most of our ethology with chimps. Including our psychotic mating behavior.

Chimps beat up, murder and then cannibalise their former tyrant | New Scientist
Death of Muammar Gaddafi | Wiki
 
CEngelbrecht said:
And yet we share most of our ethology with chimps. Including our psychotic mating behavior.

Chimps beat up, murder and then cannibalise their former tyrant | New Scientist
Death of Muammar Gaddafi | Wiki
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20 million years ago, we were chimps. Those chimps, our ancestors, shared a common ancestor with apes 60 million years ago. For 40 million years before and 20 million years after we were chimps, our lineage was and is separate from modern chimps.

We didn't come from chimps. We were chimps. They and us were last entwined before primates existed. When we get here, 60 million years later, we look like us and they like them.

At lemur (when it was the most advanced animal, 60 mya), we went one way and chimps went another. Separate genetic paths, parallel evolutionary course (obviously a different rate).

We do not come from apes. Apes do not represent our paleontology.

We weren't mixed with monkeys and became apes or mixed with apes and became people. We've been a separate genetic line since proto simian.
 
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ecofarm said:
20 million years ago, we were chimps. Those chimps, our ancestors, shared a common ancestor with apes 60 million years ago. For 40 million years before and 20 million years after we were chimps, our lineage was and is separate.

We didn't come from chimps. We were chimps. They and us were last entwined before primates existed.
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No, that's only 5-8 million years ago, not 60. We share 98% DNA with chimps, 96% with gorillas and 95% with orangutans, that's the order of our closest relatives. With lemurs, it's down to 85%, that's what 60 million years does.
 
CEngelbrecht said:
No, that's only 5-8 million years ago, not 60. We share 98% DNA with chimps, 96% with gorillas and 95% with orangutans, that's the order of our closest relatives. With lemurs, it's down to 85%, that's what 60 million years does.
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What's the most recent common ancestor between man and ape?
 
CEngelbrecht said:
No physiological or genetic comparative analysis can support that.
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The most recent common ancestor was about 60 million years ago. Our genes and others have not mixed since then. Apes are not our ancestors, though we were apes.
 
ecofarm said:
What's the most recent common ancestor between man and ape?
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Man is an ape, but... Between the human being Homo sapiens and the common chimpanzee Pan troglodytes, the identity of their last mutual ancestor is under constant debate and usually called the 'missing link', but these days the candidate varies between Sahelanthropus tchadensis or Graecopithecus freybergi, both circa 7 million years old.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/22/europe-birthplace-mankind-not-africa-scientists-find/
 
CEngelbrecht said:
Man is an ape, but... Between the human being Homo sapiens and the common chimpanzee Pan troglodytes, that's under constant debate and usually called the 'missing link', but these days it varies between Sahelanthropus tchadensis or Graecopithecus freybergi, both circa 7 million years old.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/22/europe-birthplace-mankind-not-africa-scientists-find/
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I dunno how I can explain it any more.

1. Man is an ape.

2. Man was an ape, like they look today. Other apes existed when we were an ape. They became modern apes, we became human. Separate genetic lines since long before apes hit the scene.

3. Man and apes have evolved separately since lemurs were the highest order 60 mya.

Thus, we cannot use apes, which are not us and have never been us, as a proxy for our history.


We can't use other species as a proxy for our own paleontology. No other species is ours.
 
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ecofarm said:
I dunno how I can explain it any more.

1. Man is an ape.

2. Man was an ape, like they look today. Other apes existed when we were an ape. They became modern apes, we became human. Separate genetic lines since long before apes hit the scene.

3. Man and apes have evolved separately since lemurs were the highest order 60 mya.

Thus, we cannot use apes, which are not us and have never been us, as a proxy for our history.


We can't use other species as a proxy for our own paleontology.
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Yeah... So anyway, human beings are two million year old beach apes.

 
CEngelbrecht said:
Yeah... So anyway, human beings are two million year old beach apes.
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Only one species of iguana eats underwater. We cannot use other species of iguana as a proxy for their behavior. We are far more removed from other species of primate and have been since primates began.
 
ecofarm said:
Only one species of iguana eats underwater. We cannot use other species of iguana as a proxy for their behavior. We are far more removed from other species of primate and have been since primates began.
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2 percent DNA. That's all that seperates us from chimps. That's enough to program for this very peculiar bipedal, near-furless ape with a large brain evolved from eating seafood. But that's still across only 7 million years or so.



Polar bears separated from brown bears just 600,000 years ago.
 
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CEngelbrecht said:
2 percent DNA. That's all that seperates us from chimps. But that's enough to program for this very peculiar bipedal, near-furless ape with a large brain evolved from eating seafood. But that's still across only 7 million years or so.
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When rodents were the highest order and largest mammal on Earth, one had a particularly large brain cavity. Could be coincidence, we know brain size is not related to intelligence, but let's say we found us. That rat became a proto simian and then split into all the primates, each evolving separately and one of them us.
 
ecofarm said:
When rodents were the highest order and largest mammal on Earth, one had a particularly large brain cavity. Could be coincidence, we know brain size is not related to intelligence, but let's say we found us. That rat became a proto simian and then split into all the primates, each evolving separately and one of them us.
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No physiological or genetic comparative analysis can support that.

 
CEngelbrecht said:
No physiological or genetic comparative analysis can support that.
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All of it supports that. You're just looking at it backwards, attributing similarities to ancestry when they ought be attributed to similar evolution. 60 mya lemurs, monkeys, apes and us were all the same creature. Apes have kept up, minus 2%. Monkeys have kept up minus more, and so on.

Our genetic differences are not due to when we split from a species, but similar environments (selecting for the same attributes) for 60 million years. It's not who's further away; they're all 60 million years away. It's who's kept up for those 60 million years. Lemurs been just about sittin' on their ass. They're back at x%, hardly a sniff of the new stuff.
 
ecofarm said:
My point being no ape was an ancestor of man, so we can't use apes to tell our ancestry. That's why paleo-anthropologists object to using apes; they're a proxy.

Your graphic (Pearson) is incorrect. Man and apes do not share a primate ancestor. Our nearest common ancestor was not a primate (or just barely, a pre prosimian).
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Humans are apes. We diverged from (our last common ancestor with) Chimpanzees about 7 million years ago.
 
ecofarm said:
All of it supports that. You're just looking at it backwards, attributing similarities to ancestry when they ought be attributed to similar evolution. 60 mya lemurs, monkeys, apes and us were all the same creature. Apes have kept up, minus 2%. Monkeys have kept up minus more, and so on.

Our genetic differences are not due to when we split from a species, but similar environments (selecting for the same attributes) for 60 million years. It's not who's further away; they're all 60 million years away. It's who's kept up for those 60 million years. Lemurs been just about sittin' on their ass. They're back at x%, hardly a sniff of the new stuff.
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You don't look like your dad, do you?
 
spud_meister said:
Humans are apes. We diverged from (our last common ancestor with) Chimpanzees about 7 million years ago.
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The divergence is our species from other species of chimps. Not humans coming from chimps. It's not humans appearing from chimps. It's one chimp species diverging from others and that one species becoming humans. We weren't mixed, we were at the same evolutionary point.
 
CEngelbrecht said:
It may be, that your mama has an explanation problem.
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So you get it, right? We can't use terrestrial iguanas to model marine iguana behavior, and we can't use modern apes to model human-to-be ape (different species, different time) behavior 20 mya.
 
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CEngelbrecht said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07w4y98
Semi-Aquatic Human Ancestors

This is the idea, that answers all questions about human evolution left over from Darwin and Wallace, leaving creationist cultists with nothing. And yet, by the will of the entire field of paleoanthropology, you're still not supposed to know about it. Because it was the wrong person that made the headway.

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There's plenty of hypothesising and minimal actual evidence for the Aquatic Ape Theory.
 
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