The Iconic Photo That CHANGED HISTORY...

[Scrabaholic]

lol...gotta a scripture that supports that?

There is no verse in the Bible forbidding a woman from terminating her pregnancy.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Many people believe a lot of things...like it's ok to kill the unborn...BTW, you are wrong, as usual...

Wrong about what?

 

[Scrabaholic]

Oh, I thought Jehovah's Witness.

That could be. I could be wrong. As far as I know, JWs are not Christian.

 

[Daisy]

There is no verse in the Bible forbidding a woman from terminating her pregnancy.

That is not what I asked...and actually, there is...God’s law to Moses protected the life of an unborn baby against more than criminal abortion, if a fracas ensued between men and a pregnant woman suffered an accident fatal to her or the child, “then you must give soul for soul"...Exodus 21:22-25...

 

[Serenity]

How about the woman who spread her legs and the man who donated his sperm step up and take responsibility for their actions?

"The woman who spread her legs"....

Gosh.

You do understand that you sound just like the extremists on the other side of the debate who refer to the unborn in dehumanizing ways, don't you?

If that was the look you were going for, congratulations I guess. Your presentation is no different than any other extremist out there.

 

[Winchester]

Ten week old baby, an absolutely astounding photo of that baby's tiny feet.
Doesn't answer the important question however:

Can that ten week old fetus survive outside the womb for even one second if delivered prematurely at that point in gestation?
You have to realize that, at some point, our technology MIGHT even make it possible for gestation to occur ENTIRELY outside ANY human body altogether.

What if a dictatorship like China arrives at the point where they can "grow" millions of babies entirely outside the uterus and entirely apart from human sexual congress?
What if they can simply clone a human egg and just add sperm and grow complete cloned armies by the millions in a massive laboratory "incubator"?
The SAME CLONED HUMAN BEING - by the MILLIONS.

Every sperm and every egg is sacred? Be very careful what you wish for, because China might not hesitate to share such technology with others, like North Korea.
Together with gene splicing ability and "designer DNA" you may end up with entire cloned armies, genetically designed from head to toe to serve their masters.

It will be interesting to see the churchified view on reproduction if that ever comes to pass.

Jango Fett is that you?

 

[weaver2]

God’s law to Moses protected the life of an unborn baby against more than criminal abortion, if a fracas ensued between men and a pregnant woman suffered an accident fatal to her or the child, “then you must give soul for soul"...Exodus 21:22-25...

Your version is incorrect. God is talking about punishment for harm to adults not to fetuses.The fetus is treated dismissively, if the woman suffers a miscarriage only, the person responsible pays compensation for suffering the miscarriage not for the death of a fetus. The phrase "if further harm is done" is clear from the text the entire bunch of laws is dealing with punishment for adults having done harm to other adults.

New Jerusalem Bible Edodus 21:12-28
22.'If people, when brawling, hurt a pregnant woman and she suffers a miscarriage but no further harm is done, the person responsible will pay compensation as fixed by the woman's master, paying as much as the judges decide. 23.If further harm is done, however, you will award life for life, 24.eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25.burn for burn, wound for wound, stroke for stroke. 26.'If anyone strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys the use of it, he will give the slave his freedom to compensate for the eye. 27.If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he will give the slave his freedom to compensate for the tooth. 28.'If an ox gores a man or woman to death, the ox will be stoned and its meat will not be eaten, but the owner of the ox will not be liable."

 

[minnie616]

Part IX of Roe v Wade.

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57]
It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]

lol...gotta a scripture that supports that?

Jesus said not one word about a woman aborting her pregnancy, even though known abortions took place in the Biblicaldays and the Jewish faithful put the woman’s life above the life of unborn.

The Jewish faithful and many Protestant religions sincerely believe that the soul enters a newborn with its first breath , known as the breath of life.

We become “living souls” with the first breath just as Adam did when God breathed life into Adam.

The Surpreme Court Justices took the sincerely held beliefs of the Jewish community and Protestant religions into concideration when deciding Roe v Wade.

From Part IX of Roe v Wade.

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57]
It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]

 

[truthatallcost]

There are many pro choice Christians. I am one, my parents were, too.

You can't be a Christian and support abortion for non-medical reasons. Abortion for the sake of convenience, or as a form of birth control, is about the most anti-Christ sin in existence.

 

[minnie616]

You can't be a Christian and support abortion for non-medical reasons. Abortion for the sake of convenience, or as a form of birth control, is about the most anti-Christ sin in existence.

The woman is a moral agent.



From the Religious Coaliation for Reproductive Choice;

The Moral Case:

RCRC is unique in the reproductive health, rights and justice movements, because it draws on the moral power of diverse religious communities.
...
The decisions to become a parent, when and under what circumstances are deeply personal. These matters are best left to a woman to discern for herself in consultation with her family, her faith and others she may bring into the conversation.
...
Religious Liberty

Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.

The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[truthatallcost]

Jesus said not one word about a woman aborting her pregnancy, even though it well known and the Jewish faithful put the woman’s life above the life of unborn.

The Jewish faithful and many Protestant religions sincerely believe that the soul enters a newborn with its first breath , known as the breath of life.

We become “living souls” with the first breath just as Adam did when God breathed life into Adam.

The Surpreme Court Justices took the sincerely held beliefs of the Jewish community and Protestant religions into concideration when deciding Roe v Wade.

From Part IX of Roe v Wade.

That's not how it works Minnie. Abortion in Israel was partly legalized in the 1970s with the understanding that Jewish women were not to have abortions, and that they would be granted primarily to Arab women. Each abortion has to be approved by a rabbi in Israel, and Jewish women report that the government appointed rabbis will usually try to talk them out of it. We know that abortion isn't practiced widely in Jewish communities, as the average woman has 3 children in Israel, the highest fertility rate anywhere in the developed world. The rate in Europe is 1.2 children per woman, and similar here in the USA. The real effect of abortion in the USA is that white and black women have less children, some have none by the time their ability to procreate ends, which goes against:

"Be fruitful and multiply.."

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth."

 

[minnie616]

That's not how it works Minnie. Abortion in Israel was partly legalized in the 1970s with the understanding that Jewish women were not to have abortions, and that they would be granted primarily to Arab women. Each abortion has to be approved by a rabbi in Israel, and Jewish women report that the government appointed rabbis will usually try to talk them out of it. We know that abortion isn't practiced widely in Jewish communities, as the average woman has 3 children in Israel, the highest fertility rate anywhere in the developed world. The rate in Europe is 1.2 children per woman, and similar here in the USA. The real effect of abortion in the USA is that white and black women have less children, some have none by the time their ability to procreate ends, which goes against:

"Be fruitful and multiply.."

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth."

Actually . The Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion was a group of Protestant Clery and and Jewish Rabbis who helped refer women to safe abortion services before Roe was passed.

From Wiki :

The Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion (CCS) was a group of American clergy that counseled and referred people to licensed doctors for safe abortions before the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationwide.[1] Started in 1967 by a group of 21 Protestant ministers and Jewish rabbis in New York City, the group operated out of Judson Memorial Church[2] and grew to incorporate chapters in thirty-eight states with some 3,000 clergy as members.[1] By the time of the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, it is estimated that the Clergy Consultation Service had nationally referred at least 450,000 people for safe abortions.[3] The Clergy Consultation Service also started Women's Services, an abortion clinic in New York City, in 1970 after statewide legislation made abortion legal in New York State.[1]

Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion - Wikipedia

And from the Religious Coaliation for Reproductive Choice:

RCRC is unique in the reproductive health, rights and justice movements, because it draws on the moral power of diverse religious communities.

RCRC has proud roots in the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion, the underground network of religious leaders created before Roe v. Wade. These brave people of conscience took risks to ensure that women could have the spiritual counseling they needed, and, if they chose, referral to a safe abortion provider.

The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

A list of RCRC

Coalition Council Members:from Wiki :

Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women's League for Conservative Judaism
The Episcopal Church
American Ethical Union National Service Conference
Society for Humanistic Judaism
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO) of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women's Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis
The United Church of Christ
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women's Federation website
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Women's Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women's Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women's Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA'AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Women's American ORT
YWCA of the USA

 

[truthatallcost]

Actually .

That's right Minnie, they support other women having abortions, not Jewish women. As the percentage of white Christians plummets in America, the Jewish population is growing. And this in spite of all time record numbers of Jews choosing aliyah, the movement of Jews back to Israel. Look at the numbers; Jewish women are clearly not having abortions at the same rates as white and black women. So Jewish organizations support every form of abortion, even late term, but they themselves aren't having them.

 

[weaver2]

You can't be a Christian and support abortion for non-medical reasons. Abortion for the sake of convenience, or as a form of birth control, is about the most anti-Christ sin in existence.

Oh, spare us your self-righteous Christian moralizing about women's reproductive lives. Save it for when you get pregnant.

 

[truthatallcost]

Oh, spare us your self-righteous Christian moralizing about women's reproductive lives. Save it for when you get pregnant.

That's like saying 'women can't voice their opinion on war, since they aren't the ones fighting'. Silly double standards are silly.

 

[weaver2]

That's like saying 'women can't voice their opinion on war, since they aren't the ones fighting'. Silly double standards are silly.

Women fight wars. And your analogy is wrong. You're comment telling women the only moral interpretation of abortion is your religious morality is analogous to women telling you the only moral way to handle your sexuality depends on what women think you ought to do. Oh you'll never need women's instructions on sexual morality? So what makes you think women need your paternalistic Christian instructions on how to handle pregnancy, family, and morality. Like I said, save it for when you get pregnant. Until then why don't you just see to it that you live a moral and Christian life and not worry so much about managing women's lives, especially women who's lives you know nothing about.

 

[Lursa]

That could be. I could be wrong. As far as I know, JWs are not Christian.

Oh, I thought they were.

My bad.

Altho she does refer to the Bible as if she follows it as well. (But not properly according to His Word, from what she's been writing.)

 

[minnie616]

That's right Minnie, they support other women having abortions, not Jewish women. As the percentage of white Christians plummets in America, the Jewish population is growing. And this in spite of all time record numbers of Jews choosing aliyah, the movement of Jews back to Israel. Look at the numbers; Jewish women are clearly not having abortions at the same rates as white and black women. So Jewish organizations support every form of abortion, even late term, but they themselves aren't having them.

Late term abortions ( past 24 weeks ) are for medical reasons.

In fact in 2012 there were only 4 clinic doctors in the United States that perform abortions past 20 weeks

Only 1.3 of all abortions in the United States ( by 2014 the CDC reported the percentage had been reduced to 1 percent ) past 21 weeks.

80 percent of abortions in the US taking place past 21 weeks are because of catastrophic fetal defects.

From Romper:

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)
...

Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, and [B%]80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus. [/B]

Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access


Women who need an abortions after 20 weeks must travel to one of the few clinics ( only 3 late term abortion clinic in the United States ) The woman’s OB/GYN has referred them to one doctors because the medical reason was discovered late in the pregnancy.

In 2008 was one of a few states where abortions past 20 weeks occurred.

Kansas keep a record of all abortions past 22 weeks that took place in 2008.

There 323 abortion at or past 22 weeks that year.
131 were because the fetus was non viable.
192 were because irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function would occur if the pregnancy
continued.

See pages 8 and 9 of the PDF

http://www.kdheks.gov/phi/abortion_sum/2008itopcmbnd.pdf

 

[Frank Apisa]

True, and she should be willing to face any and all consequences...

Not sure what that is about...but each of us should be willing to face any and all consequences of our actions.

That is for sure.

 

[minnie616]

That's right Minnie, they support other women having abortions, not Jewish women. As the percentage of white Christians plummets in America, the Jewish population is growing. And this in spite of all time record numbers of Jews choosing aliyah, the movement of Jews back to Israel. Look at the numbers; Jewish women are clearly not having abortions at the same rates as white and black women. So Jewish organizations support every form of abortion, even late term, but they themselves aren't having them.

From the following:

Jewish perspectives on abortion.

Due to the general leniency in matters of abortion, as well as to a long-standing Jewish insistence on the separation of religion and government in American life, all four non-Orthodox Jewish movements – Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative and Humanist – are on record opposing any governmental regulation of abortion. Moreover, many Orthodox authorities take the same position. Whatever their opinions on abortion in any given situation, a vast majority of Jewish thinkers agree that decision-making with respect to abortion must be left in the hands of the woman involved, her husband, her physician, and her rabbi. Out of this context, in consonance with her Jewish heritage, she can make a decision as she is permitted to do by the United States Constitution.

These, then, become the guiding principles on abortion in Jewish tradition: a woman’s life, her pain, and her concerns take precedence over those of the fetus; existing life is always sacred and dates precedence over a potential life; and a woman has the personal freedom to apply the principles of her tradition unfettered by the legal imposition of moral standards other than her own.

Jewish – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[Rickeroo]

Not many people believe in abortion enough to perform it on themselves. Only one in 7600 choose abortion in any given year. The other 7599 choose life - for themselves.

 

[minnie616]

That is not what I asked...and actually, there is...God’s law to Moses protected the life of an unborn baby against more than criminal abortion, if a fracas ensued between men and a pregnant woman suffered an accident fatal to her or the child, “then you must give soul for soul"...Exodus 21:22-25...

Your version is incorrect. God is talking about punishment for harm to adults not to fetuses.The fetus is treated dismissively, if the woman suffers a miscarriage only, the person responsible pays compensation for suffering the miscarriage not for the death of a fetus. The phrase "if further harm is done" is clear from the text the entire bunch of laws is dealing with punishment for adults having done harm to other adults.

...

Exactly.

From the following:

According to Jewish law, a fetus is not considered a full human being and has no juridical personality of its own. While recognizing the potentiality of becoming human, Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus “lav nefesh hu – it is not a person.” The Talmud contains the expression “ubar yerech imo – the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,” i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant women’s body.

The biblical foundation for this statement is Exodus 21:22ff:

When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life…

The Jewish legal interpretation of this passage states specifically that only monetary compensation is necessary for one who causes the death of a fetus. The unborn fetus is not worthy of the “life for life” punishment demanded if the woman herself is killed. This clearly implies that the fetus is not accorded the same legal status as the woman herself, namely that of independent human being.

Jewish – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[minnie616]

That's right Minnie, they support other women having abortions, not Jewish women. ...

Jewish women do have abortions. It is true that in Israel abortions have declined since 1988

Abortions have also declined since 1988 in the United States when the rate was 27.3 per 1,000 women.

United States abortion rates, 1960-2013

From Wiki:

The rate of abortion in Israel has steadily declined since 1988.[1] Compared to the world, abortion rates in Israel are moderate. According to government data, in Israel, abortion rates in 2016 have dropped steadily to 9 per 1,000 women of childbearing age, lower than England (16.2) and the United States (13.2)

 

[TheGoverness]

Of course not...but life is a sacred gift from God...the infant did nothing wrong so why are they being punished?

More like the woman would be punished by forcing her to carry a baby to term that was forced upon her by a violation of her own agency. That's the real punishment. If I was ever put in that horrible situation, I think the last thing that I'd ever want is to be forced to carry it to term.

 

[Daisy]

People rely on different things for their authoritative figure...priest, preacher, pope, secular law, self...I prefer to rely on God's Word, which tells me how God views the unborn...they are precious in His eyes...

"Just as you do not know how the spirit operates in the bones of the child inside a pregnant woman, so you do not know the work of the true God, who does all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5

"Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;
All its parts were written in your book
Regarding the days when they were formed,
Before any of them existed." Psalm 139:16

"For look! as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy." Luke 1:44