The Higgs Particle [W:16]

[Kal'Stang]

The Higgs Particle is supposed to be THE particle. The one that holds everything together. Without it, nothing as we know it would be able to exist.

Before the Higgs particle was found it was thought to be either at 115Gev or 140Gev. If the Higgs Particle was found to be at 115Gev it would support the Super Symmetry Theory. If however the Higgs Particle was found to be at 140Gev then it would support the Multiverse Theory.

Super Symmetry Theory
Multiverse Theory

Now in laymans terms Super Symmetry in physics is essentially where everything in the universe has a pattern that is, if given enough time and research, detectable and understandable. It is one reason that the Higgs Particle is also considered the God Particle. Because such symmetry would in essence prove that, as one physics scientist put it, "someone was out there continually fiddling with the buttons to make everything just right for life to exist". Now of course this doesn't prove that there would be or is actually a God out there. But it would lend credence to it because nothing that is so symmetrical as what is proposed with Super Symmetry is possible with a simple accident. Which leads us to the Multiverse Theory.

The Multiverse Theory is essentially, and again in laymans terms, several, possibly even an infinite amount of universes all existing next to each, maybe even slightly interacting with each other but not seeable by each other. Each one "resonating" at a different "frequency". Most if not all being completely uninhabitable by anything known or even suspected/fantasized by mankind. Which would make our universe a simple accident among an infinite amount of possibilities. It essentially would disprove a God like being.

Now, don't get me wrong. This thread isn't about whether or not God exists. I simply use it to demonstrate the extremes that we're looking at here with the Higgs Particle and to set up my actual question.

When they found the Higgs Particle they found something that they weren't expecting. It didn't resonate at either 115Gev or 140Gev. It actually resonated at 126.5Gev. Essentially almost right in the middle between what they thought it would be. Which means it neither supported the Super Symmetry Theory or the Multiverse Theory. Neither God, or accident. Or to look at it another way, it supported both theories. Both God, and accident. (Now think about that before you respond to it as the two may not be as mutually exclusive as one might hastily think)

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Note that once again, all of this is said in extreme laymans terms. And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not. I'm simply wanting to talk about the nature of the Universe.

 

[cpwill]

And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not.

Just sayin, If you didn't want that, maybe you shouldn't have gone with:

It essentially would disprove a God like being

 

[Kal'Stang]

Just sayin, If you didn't want that, maybe you shouldn't have gone with:

This:

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Is the main point of the thread. Everything else was just an explanation used to help in understanding the scientific principles involved as I know/understand them. If anyone wants to focus on anything other than my main question, I'll simply ignore them. :shrug: I'm not a physicist, I can only state things in laymans terms.

 

[Beaudreaux]

[...]

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

[...]

Short response - that there probably is a God, and that God is hedging his bets?

A longer and more intelligent response is not possible at this point from me due to my being up all night and desperately wanting to go to sleep.

EDIT: A very interesting and thought provoking thread topic, however.

 

[ludin]

The Higgs Particle is supposed to be THE particle. The one that holds everything together. Without it, nothing as we know it would be able to exist.

Before the Higgs particle was found it was thought to be either at 115Gev or 140Gev. If the Higgs Particle was found to be at 115Gev it would support the Super Symmetry Theory. If however the Higgs Particle was found to be at 140Gev then it would support the Multiverse Theory.

Super Symmetry Theory
Multiverse Theory

Now in laymans terms Super Symmetry in physics is essentially where everything in the universe has a pattern that is, if given enough time and research, detectable and understandable. It is one reason that the Higgs Particle is also considered the God Particle. Because such symmetry would in essence prove that, as one physics scientist put it, "someone was out there continually fiddling with the buttons to make everything just right for life to exist". Now of course this doesn't prove that there would be or is actually a God out there. But it would lend credence to it because nothing that is so symmetrical as what is proposed with Super Symmetry is possible with a simple accident. Which leads us to the Multiverse Theory.

The Multiverse Theory is essentially, and again in laymans terms, several, possibly even an infinite amount of universes all existing next to each, maybe even slightly interacting with each other but not seeable by each other. Each one "resonating" at a different "frequency". Most if not all being completely uninhabitable by anything known or even suspected/fantasized by mankind. Which would make our universe a simple accident among an infinite amount of possibilities. It essentially would disprove a God like being.

Now, don't get me wrong. This thread isn't about whether or not God exists. I simply use it to demonstrate the extremes that we're looking at here with the Higgs Particle and to set up my actual question.

When they found the Higgs Particle they found something that they weren't expecting. It didn't resonate at either 115Gev or 140Gev. It actually resonated at 126.5Gev. Essentially almost right in the middle between what they thought it would be. Which means it neither supported the Super Symmetry Theory or the Multiverse Theory. Neither God, or accident. Or to look at it another way, it supported both theories. Both God, and accident. (Now think about that before you respond to it as the two may not be as mutually exclusive as one might hastily think)

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Note that once again, all of this is said in extreme laymans terms. And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not. I'm simply wanting to talk about the nature of the Universe.

it proves that the universe is not the chaotic mess that people think it is. That it happens for a reason but once the laws of it's existence are in place they continue to operate the way they are designed to.
It also allows enough room for uncertain things to happen in the universe.

Or it goes back to the claim that God set the wheels in motion and ignited the spark that created the universe.

 

[ocean515]

The Higgs Particle is supposed to be THE particle. The one that holds everything together. Without it, nothing as we know it would be able to exist.

Before the Higgs particle was found it was thought to be either at 115Gev or 140Gev. If the Higgs Particle was found to be at 115Gev it would support the Super Symmetry Theory. If however the Higgs Particle was found to be at 140Gev then it would support the Multiverse Theory.

Super Symmetry Theory
Multiverse Theory

Now in laymans terms Super Symmetry in physics is essentially where everything in the universe has a pattern that is, if given enough time and research, detectable and understandable. It is one reason that the Higgs Particle is also considered the God Particle. Because such symmetry would in essence prove that, as one physics scientist put it, "someone was out there continually fiddling with the buttons to make everything just right for life to exist". Now of course this doesn't prove that there would be or is actually a God out there. But it would lend credence to it because nothing that is so symmetrical as what is proposed with Super Symmetry is possible with a simple accident. Which leads us to the Multiverse Theory.

The Multiverse Theory is essentially, and again in laymans terms, several, possibly even an infinite amount of universes all existing next to each, maybe even slightly interacting with each other but not seeable by each other. Each one "resonating" at a different "frequency". Most if not all being completely uninhabitable by anything known or even suspected/fantasized by mankind. Which would make our universe a simple accident among an infinite amount of possibilities. It essentially would disprove a God like being.

Now, don't get me wrong. This thread isn't about whether or not God exists. I simply use it to demonstrate the extremes that we're looking at here with the Higgs Particle and to set up my actual question.

When they found the Higgs Particle they found something that they weren't expecting. It didn't resonate at either 115Gev or 140Gev. It actually resonated at 126.5Gev. Essentially almost right in the middle between what they thought it would be. Which means it neither supported the Super Symmetry Theory or the Multiverse Theory. Neither God, or accident. Or to look at it another way, it supported both theories. Both God, and accident. (Now think about that before you respond to it as the two may not be as mutually exclusive as one might hastily think)

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Note that once again, all of this is said in extreme laymans terms. And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not. I'm simply wanting to talk about the nature of the Universe.

Perhaps it's a few tentacles in the family DNA that found it's way to me via my Nobel Prize winning Great Uncle that allows me to "get" what you are asking. Certainly the nuance of 126.5Gev is lost on me, as that is several miles above my head.

However, I think the more interesting revelations come from proof that particle physics is on the right track. Higgs was theorized because there was a missing verified link. Now it's verification has been accomplished - yet it's not what was expected.

Perhaps the answers will be found when the understanding of dark energy/dark matter/gravity/vacuum emerges from the unknown, into the verified.

A journey into understanding the elements found in infinity will no doubt be a long, and amazing trek.

 

[cpwill]

This:

Is the main point of the thread. Everything else was just an explanation used to help in understanding the scientific principles involved as I know/understand them. If anyone wants to focus on anything other than my main question, I'll simply ignore them. :shrug: I'm not a physicist, I can only state things in laymans terms.

:shrug: I get that it was the point. But you threw out some stray voltage that made it difficult for people to focus on it

Frankly, I don't understand enough about why the 115Gev would indicate symmetry or the 140Gev a multiverse. My explanation for the 126.5 is that either A) there are - as predicted by Star Trek - two universes or B) our understanding of the meaning of the 115 v 140 is incorrect

 

[DA60]

Oh yeah...now this was worth the tens of billions of mostly tax payer dollars to build the LHC to find out.

:roll:

Children dying of easily preventable illnesses/reasons, millions starving to death and scientists want tens of billions to fund their pet projects like this semi-nonsense.

If scientists want to spend whacking great sums of dough on this stuff...power to them - JUST DON'T USE TAXPAYER MONEY TO DO IT.

And to anyone that disagrees with me on this? You ARE wrong on this and I AM right on this. Period.


BTW...my argument has nothing to do with the God question...I am not religious in the slightest.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Perhaps it's a few tentacles in the family DNA that found it's way to me via my Nobel Prize winning Great Uncle that allows me to "get" what you are asking. Certainly the nuance of 126.5Gev is lost on me, as that is several miles above my head.

However, I think the more interesting revelations come from proof that particle physics is on the right track. Higgs was theorized because there was a missing verified link. Now it's verification has been accomplished - yet it's not what was expected.

Perhaps the answers will be found when the understanding of dark energy/dark matter/gravity/vacuum emerges from the unknown, into the verified.

A journey into understanding the elements found in infinity will no doubt be a long, and amazing trek.

Think I was just complimented there. Thanks! At least I'll take it that way. lol :lol:

I do agree that getting to understand all of this is going to be an amazing trek. But its going to be a very long one, and one that will more than likely take several long lives to figure out! Science of the Universe is one of my few passions and would love to get to know more of it. Unfortunately, despite what I'm taking as a compliment, I'm no Nobel Prize candidate. But I can just barely see the nuance of the Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev. But understanding it is a whole 'nother story. The unknown fascinates me to no end.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Frankly, I don't understand enough about why the 115Gev would indicate symmetry or the 140Gev a multiverse. My explanation for the 126.5 is that either A) there are - as predicted by Star Trek - two universes or B) our understanding of the meaning of the 115 v 140 is incorrect

From what I can understand it has to do with the "weight" of the particle. A small weight (115Gev) indicates a stability and evenness. A high weight (140Gev) indicates an instability and unevenness.

Look at it this way. When a large planet revolves around a sun the gravitational pull of that large planet pulls at the sun and makes it wobble and pulls it off center. However when a small planet revolves around the sun there is less of a pull and less of a wobble on the sun, keeping it fairly centered. The Super Symmetry Theory is the small planet. The Multiverse theory is the large planet. In other words the multiverse, if there is one, is pulling on our universe and making it wobble and pulls it off center. Just like if there were multiple planets or large planets pulling on the sun. Where as with the Super Symmetry Theory our universe is not being pulled off center or wobbles because there is nothing big enough to affect our universe. So, our Universe is the only one around. This also means that everything that exists is with in our universe. Which means everything has to be able to coexist and work with each other, otherwise it would destroy itself.

 

[Deuce]

Oh yeah...now this was worth the tens of billions of mostly tax payer dollars to build the LHC to find out.

:roll:

Children dying of easily preventable illnesses/reasons, millions starving to death and scientists want tens of billions to fund their pet projects like this semi-nonsense.

If scientists want to spend whacking great sums of dough on this stuff...power to them - JUST DON'T USE TAXPAYER MONEY TO DO IT.

And to anyone that disagrees with me on this? You ARE wrong on this and I AM right on this. Period.


BTW...my argument has nothing to do with the God question...I am not religious in the slightest.

You are wrong and I am right. Period.

 

[ocean515]

Think I was just complimented there. Thanks! At least I'll take it that way. lol :lol:

I do agree that getting to understand all of this is going to be an amazing trek. But its going to be a very long one, and one that will more than likely take several long lives to figure out! Science of the Universe is one of my few passions and would love to get to know more of it. Unfortunately, despite what I'm taking as a compliment, I'm no Nobel Prize candidate. But I can just barely see the nuance of the Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev. But understanding it is a whole 'nother story. The unknown fascinates me to no end.

Well yes, it was a complement. That you can even barely see nuance in a 126.5Gev is reason for compliment. I'm seeing an FM radio station.

For reasons I guess are evidenced by my Great Uncle, and most certainly found in my late departed Father, I have a very high aptitude for engineering and mechanics. Someone can look at a machine and see just that, a big lump that does something. I see angles and density, purpose and function, energy transference, and dynamic synchronicity.

So I "get" what you are referring to. I also get the colossal task at hand when trying to fit all the pieces of the universe together - where a singularity of psysics and infinity are understood and explained.

 

[Threegoofs]

Oh yeah...now this was worth the tens of billions of mostly tax payer dollars to build the LHC to find out.

:roll:

Children dying of easily preventable illnesses/reasons, millions starving to death and scientists want tens of billions to fund their pet projects like this semi-nonsense.

If scientists want to spend whacking great sums of dough on this stuff...power to them - JUST DON'T USE TAXPAYER MONEY TO DO IT.

And to anyone that disagrees with me on this? You ARE wrong on this and I AM right on this. Period.


BTW...my argument has nothing to do with the God question...I am not religious in the slightest.

Well, that's probably what people said when Van Leeowenhouk was grinding glass to make microscopes, or when Pasteur bought all that silly glassware.

 

[Deuce]

Well, that's probably what people said when Van Leeowenhouk was grinding glass to make microscopes, or when Pasteur bought all that silly glassware.

Transistors and fiber optics were both invented with absolutely no concept of how they might be remotely useful.

 

[Mr Person]

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Note that once again, all of this is said in extreme laymans terms. And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not. I'm simply wanting to talk about the nature of the Universe.

Well, not to be flippant, but basically it suggests that there is a larger physical theory that encompasses what we already know. (I mean, we know that already given that we can't match up standard field theory and quantum mechanics).

I don't have anything remotely approaching the expertise to say what the 126.5Gev resonance points to. We have at least identified yet another portion of physical theory that we do not fully understand.

Does it mean Super Symmetry is entirely wrong? Or does it mean that parts of it are right, but there's a whole lot more we don't know that accounts for this particular reading? Again, I don't have the slightest clue. All I can say is we'll be digging as long as we're around.




(Not much of a contribution, I know....)

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

People. The topic is the Higgs Particle. Focus on THAT.

 

[Lutherf]

So now I know that "Gev" stands for "Gigaelectronvolt" and that 1Gev is equal to 160 zeptojules.....then my eyes glazed over and I may have stroked out for a second or two.

 

[Kal'Stang]

So now I know that "Gev" stands for "Gigaelectronvolt" and that 1Gev is equal to 160 zeptojules.....then my eyes glazed over and I may have stroked out for a second or two.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that. It IS quiet impressive huh? lol

 

[Kal'Stang]

Well, not to be flippant, but basically it suggests that there is a larger physical theory that encompasses what we already know. (I mean, we know that already given that we can't match up standard field theory and quantum mechanics).

I don't have anything remotely approaching the expertise to say what the 126.5Gev resonance points to. We have at least identified yet another portion of physical theory that we do not fully understand.

Does it mean Super Symmetry is entirely wrong? Or does it mean that parts of it are right, but there's a whole lot more we don't know that accounts for this particular reading? Again, I don't have the slightest clue. All I can say is we'll be digging as long as we're around.




(Not much of a contribution, I know....)

Bold: That is what I'm curious about. I know that anything any of us say here is going to just be pure speculation and more than likely will be wrong on orders of magnitude. But it's still interesting and fun to talk about.

My thought is that perhaps it means that both super symmetry and multiverse theories are possible. I know that it might seem like the two would be mutually exclusive but I can think of valid reasons for both being possible.

 

[the_recruit]

Do you have a source for this? My understanding is that the 140geV number is a bit of a "widespread" misunderstanding stemming from the documentary Particle Fever. And that multiverse theory doesn't really put that restriction on the mass of the Higgs.

See here by physicist Peter Woit

 

[Kal'Stang]

Do you have a source for this? My understanding is that the 140geV number is a bit of a "widespread" misunderstanding stemming from the documentary Particle Fever. And that multiverse theory doesn't really put that restriction on the mass of the Higgs.

See here by physicist Peter Woit

While I did watch Particle Fever it was just one of many things that I've seen/read that talk about the Higgs Particle and/or the multiverse. There are of course detractors of the theories. But that is understandable, particularly in light of the fact that know one really knows either way. Those detractors may very well be right, they could be just as wrong though. We simply do not know.

That said, the very fact that the Higgs Particle turned out to be something other than 140GeV shows that that restriction is no longer relevant, at least as we understand it.

 

[matchlight]

While I did watch Particle Fever it was just one of many things that I've seen/read that talk about the Higgs Particle and/or the multiverse. There are of course detractors of the theories. But that is understandable, particularly in light of the fact that know one really knows either way. Those detractors may very well be right, they could be just as wrong though. We simply do not know.

That said, the very fact that the Higgs Particle turned out to be something other than 140GeV shows that that restriction is no longer relevant, at least as we understand it.

This may seem silly to people who know more about this subject than I do, but how do researchers know that all Higgs particles always have the same mass?

 

[Kal'Stang]

This may seem silly to people who know more about this subject than I do, but how do researchers know that all Higgs particles always have the same mass?

Frankly I have no idea. I'm no physicist and no mathematician. I'm good at visualizing things like what is being talked in this thread but that's really about as far as it goes.

But if I were to visualize this....Look at it this way, think of genetics. A human DNA strand is always going to be made up of 23 pairs of chromosomes. No matter how big or small a human is. The base component of what makes us US is always the same. I would imagine that particles work much the same way when they're releasing their energy due to a collision. Which I believe is what is actually being measured here, the amount of energy released by X particle when its forced to collide into another particle. And the amount of energy released gives an indication as to what particle is being looked at and its mass.

Please note, again, I'M NO EXPERT in this field. This is just part of a small time hobby of mine. For all I know I'm speaking out my ass.

 

[Tim the plumber]

The Higgs Particle is supposed to be THE particle. The one that holds everything together. Without it, nothing as we know it would be able to exist.

Before the Higgs particle was found it was thought to be either at 115Gev or 140Gev. If the Higgs Particle was found to be at 115Gev it would support the Super Symmetry Theory. If however the Higgs Particle was found to be at 140Gev then it would support the Multiverse Theory.

Super Symmetry Theory
Multiverse Theory

Now in laymans terms Super Symmetry in physics is essentially where everything in the universe has a pattern that is, if given enough time and research, detectable and understandable. It is one reason that the Higgs Particle is also considered the God Particle. Because such symmetry would in essence prove that, as one physics scientist put it, "someone was out there continually fiddling with the buttons to make everything just right for life to exist". Now of course this doesn't prove that there would be or is actually a God out there. But it would lend credence to it because nothing that is so symmetrical as what is proposed with Super Symmetry is possible with a simple accident. Which leads us to the Multiverse Theory.

The Multiverse Theory is essentially, and again in laymans terms, several, possibly even an infinite amount of universes all existing next to each, maybe even slightly interacting with each other but not seeable by each other. Each one "resonating" at a different "frequency". Most if not all being completely uninhabitable by anything known or even suspected/fantasized by mankind. Which would make our universe a simple accident among an infinite amount of possibilities. It essentially would disprove a God like being.

Now, don't get me wrong. This thread isn't about whether or not God exists. I simply use it to demonstrate the extremes that we're looking at here with the Higgs Particle and to set up my actual question.

When they found the Higgs Particle they found something that they weren't expecting. It didn't resonate at either 115Gev or 140Gev. It actually resonated at 126.5Gev. Essentially almost right in the middle between what they thought it would be. Which means it neither supported the Super Symmetry Theory or the Multiverse Theory. Neither God, or accident. Or to look at it another way, it supported both theories. Both God, and accident. (Now think about that before you respond to it as the two may not be as mutually exclusive as one might hastily think)

So my question to you all is this....What does the Higgs particle being at 126.5Gev mean? Or, what other possible explanations could explain a Higgs Particle being at 126.5Gev?

Note that once again, all of this is said in extreme laymans terms. And Note again that this thread is NOT about whether or not God actually exists or not. I'm simply wanting to talk about the nature of the Universe.

It says that high level physics is bad for your head.

 

[Kal'Stang]

It says that high level physics is bad for your head.

But good for the soul!