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The Greatness of William Tecumseh Sherman

I am quite well aware that you have an inaccurate view of the Carlisle Barracks curriculum, but I have no way to make an unwilling interlocutor like yourself believe that.

Oh, so mow you want to narrow it down, strictly, to the war college cirriculum? Nothing else? Nothing about how Stuart was a kid playing soldier?
 
Oh, so mow you want to narrow it down, strictly, to the war college cirriculum? Nothing else? Nothing about how Stuart was a kid playing soldier?

In #164 you brought the Army War College into the discussion in response to my accurate observation that Stuart was a boy playing soldier.
 
In #164 you brought the Army War College into the discussion in response to my accurate observation that Stuart was a boy playing soldier.

You said it was false "front to back", but you're unwilling to discuss it from front to back.
 
You said it was false "front to back", but you're unwilling to discuss it from front to back.

Again, you imposed the Army War College boundary on the discussion. If you wish to give up on that then please say so.
 
Again, you imposed the Army War College boundary on the discussion. If you wish to give up on that then please say so.

I'm not giving up on any stance I've made, because I'm right.

It's a fact that the South had most of the talent. Does that mean that Sherman, Grant, A.J. Smith, Hancock weren't talented commanders? No. However, generals of their caliber were the exception, not the norm. The Federal officer corps over-flowed with the Popes, Banks, Burnsides, Meades, Kilpatricks and Sickles. The Confederate wasn't as hendered with substandard generals and that's just reality.
 
I'm not giving up on any stance I've made, because I'm right.

It's a fact that the South had most of the talent. Does that mean that Sherman, Grant, A.J. Smith, Hancock weren't talented commanders? No. However, generals of their caliber were the exception, not the norm. The Federal officer corps over-flowed with the Popes, Banks, Burnsides, Meades, Kilpatricks and Sickles. The Confederate wasn't as hendered with substandard generals and that's just reality.

That's a different discussion. My own view is that the South produced one superior commander: Nathan Bedford Forrest. One good but not great: R.E. Lee. One possibly great but cut down early: Thomas Jackson. Longstreet was sound but nothing more, as were A.P. Hill and Joe Johnston. John Bell Hood was catastrophic, and there was no army that Braxton Bragg could not make less effective. Stuart was a puerile menace to his own cause. Etc., etc.

None rose to the level of Sherman or Grant, the two finest military minds of the war. Sheridan ranks ahead of all but Forrest and Lee. After that you have Thomas, Schofield, Hancock, McPherson, etc., etc. All fully the equal of their Confederate counterparts.
 
I thought everybody over the age of 12 was aware that the North fought to preserve the Union and the South fought to preserve slavery. Apparently not everybody gets that.

>" On April 13, before the convention could completely finalize this document and submit it to the federal government, the convention learned of the attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. The members of the convention saw this as an act of coercion by the North, and this they could not tolerate. Accordingly, on April 16, the convention went into secret session and on the following day passed an ordinance of secession uniting their state's destiny with that of the Southern Confederacy.

We will, therefore, begin our discussion by examining arguments that drew on Virginia's position of prominence and leadership to advance each of the three positions that Virginians adopted toward the secession issue which will be discussed at length in this essay: 1.) to stay with the Union, thus strengthening the federal government's position, 2.) to urge it to force concessions from the North, and 3) to secede and join the South. In an editorial published in The Richmond Enquirer, the author stated that, because of Virginia's position as the "Old Mother State," it should have threatened to secede if the North did not make concessions pleasing to it and the other southern states.3 Another example of this argument occurred on the fifth day of Virginia's state convention when a commissioner from Mississippi, Fulton Anderson, gave an address to the representatives reminding them of their state's dominant position in the Revolutionary War:

[ In recurring to our past history, we recognize the State of Virginia as the leader in the first great struggle for independence; foremost not only in the vindication of her own rights, but in the assertion and defence of the endangered liberties of her sister colonies; and by the eloquence of her orators and statesmen, as well as by the courage of her people arousing the whole American people in resistance to British aggression. 4 ]


bla bla bla bla ... Just a teaser and some more below.

>" In a rather unexpected argument, Mr. Stuart asserted in the convention that the formation of a Southern Confederacy would actually end slavery.20 He explained that there were, in fact, many Northerners who supported the right of the South to hold slaves and that, by breaking off from them, the South would incite them to fight against slavery. Thus, the whole world would then be against this institution, held dear only by Southerners, and so it would be impossible to sustain it. These arguments, alerting Virginians to the problems and complications that would result from disunion, were some of the strongest reasons given against the secession of Virginia. Certainly, if Virginians truly believed that their rights would be better secured within the Union, they would never secede from it..."<

>" Beyond these arguments that relied on southern unity, many Virginians garnered support for the secession of their state based on the sovereignty argument. This type of argument appeared in one editorial in which the author stated, "I love this Union, but I love my State's rights more. I would spill the last drop of blood in my veins for my State. For my section, and for my country."..."<

>" Undoubtedly, those Virginians who supported secession from the start were pushed into intense fervor after the election, and especially the inauguration, of Lincoln, a Republican.
Demonstrating their belief that the aggressors of the conflict were the Northerners, many in Virginia railed against the Union, declaring that the North had forced the South, and thus Virginia, into secession and ultimately war..."<

>" The slow, deliberate action taken by Virginia compared to the other slave states singles it out as traveling a different path to secession. As this essay has shown, the major reason for Virginia's delay was the amount of disagreement between its citizens. The imminent cause for secession was neither Lincoln's election nor his inaugural, but the North's actual use of military force against the South. ..."<

Virginia's Secession from the Union
 
>" On April 13, before the convention could completely finalize this document and submit it to the federal government, the convention learned of the attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. The members of the convention saw this as an act of coercion by the North, and this they could not tolerate. Accordingly, on April 16, the convention went into secret session and on the following day passed an ordinance of secession uniting their state's destiny with that of the Southern Confederacy.

We will, therefore, begin our discussion by examining arguments that drew on Virginia's position of prominence and leadership to advance each of the three positions that Virginians adopted toward the secession issue which will be discussed at length in this essay: 1.) to stay with the Union, thus strengthening the federal government's position, 2.) to urge it to force concessions from the North, and 3) to secede and join the South. In an editorial published in The Richmond Enquirer, the author stated that, because of Virginia's position as the "Old Mother State," it should have threatened to secede if the North did not make concessions pleasing to it and the other southern states.3 Another example of this argument occurred on the fifth day of Virginia's state convention when a commissioner from Mississippi, Fulton Anderson, gave an address to the representatives reminding them of their state's dominant position in the Revolutionary War:

[ In recurring to our past history, we recognize the State of Virginia as the leader in the first great struggle for independence; foremost not only in the vindication of her own rights, but in the assertion and defence of the endangered liberties of her sister colonies; and by the eloquence of her orators and statesmen, as well as by the courage of her people arousing the whole American people in resistance to British aggression. 4 ]


bla bla bla bla ... Just a teaser and some more below.

>" In a rather unexpected argument, Mr. Stuart asserted in the convention that the formation of a Southern Confederacy would actually end slavery.20 He explained that there were, in fact, many Northerners who supported the right of the South to hold slaves and that, by breaking off from them, the South would incite them to fight against slavery. Thus, the whole world would then be against this institution, held dear only by Southerners, and so it would be impossible to sustain it. These arguments, alerting Virginians to the problems and complications that would result from disunion, were some of the strongest reasons given against the secession of Virginia. Certainly, if Virginians truly believed that their rights would be better secured within the Union, they would never secede from it..."<

>" Beyond these arguments that relied on southern unity, many Virginians garnered support for the secession of their state based on the sovereignty argument. This type of argument appeared in one editorial in which the author stated, "I love this Union, but I love my State's rights more. I would spill the last drop of blood in my veins for my State. For my section, and for my country."..."<

>" Undoubtedly, those Virginians who supported secession from the start were pushed into intense fervor after the election, and especially the inauguration, of Lincoln, a Republican.
Demonstrating their belief that the aggressors of the conflict were the Northerners, many in Virginia railed against the Union, declaring that the North had forced the South, and thus Virginia, into secession and ultimately war..."<

>" The slow, deliberate action taken by Virginia compared to the other slave states singles it out as traveling a different path to secession. As this essay has shown, the major reason for Virginia's delay was the amount of disagreement between its citizens. The imminent cause for secession was neither Lincoln's election nor his inaugural, but the North's actual use of military force against the South. ..."<

Virginia's Secession from the Union

Since the South initiated action at Fort Sumter this is false from the beginning. Beyond that it's just the lying self-justification of traitors
 
Since the South initiated action at Fort Sumter this is false from the beginning. Beyond that it's just the lying self-justification of traitors

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better.”

Abraham Lincoln, 1848

>" In his 1860 inaugural address, he said: “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Two years later, President Lincoln wrote: “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862).” ..."<

Lincoln, Secession and Slavery | Cato Institute
 
“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better.”

Abraham Lincoln, 1848

>" In his 1860 inaugural address, he said: “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Two years later, President Lincoln wrote: “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862).” ..."<

Lincoln, Secession and Slavery | Cato Institute

And your point would be?
 
And your point would be?

Nothing to do with any of your post or opinions but it was more of a response to others who were opining on Robert E. Lee and all Americans who were around during the era and never took the time to learn what were the views of America back then. Most published history doesn't touch on that. It can only be found in personal letters, journals and diaries of Americans who lived back then.

When the southern states started the secession from the Union, a newly formed government under the "Law of Nations" does have the authority to capture foreign property on it's sovereign soil. Fort Sumter was U.S. government property on sovereign CSA soil.

As I pointed out in a letter from Robert E. Lee to his wife when Lee was in Texas fighting Comanche Indians and there was talk of Texas secession from the Union, Lee said he would fight to defend U.S. government property.

Lincoln's orders on April 15: > President Lincoln calls on the states to provide seventy-five thousand militiamen to recapture Federal property and to suppress the rebellion. <

Europe's views on what was taking place in America was that the northern Federal government invaded the South.

As for William Tecumseh Sherman, lessons learned and forgotten lately. When you go to war it has to be fought as total war.
As for the scorch earth tactics, are they a war crime ? Only when you're on the loosing side.
 
Nothing to do with any of your post or opinions but it was more of a response to others who were opining on Robert E. Lee and all Americans who were around during the era and never took the time to learn what were the views of America back then. Most published history doesn't touch on that. It can only be found in personal letters, journals and diaries of Americans who lived back then.

When the southern states started the secession from the Union, a newly formed government under the "Law of Nations" does have the authority to capture foreign property on it's sovereign soil. Fort Sumter was U.S. government property on sovereign CSA soil.

Under Texas v White there was never a CSA. There was never any sovereign soil but that of the USA.
 
Under Texas v White there was never a CSA. There was never any sovereign soil but that of the USA.

>" It is said of Texas (and, occasionally, Vermont) that it received a letter or document of permission to withdraw from the Federal Union if it so chose. In the case of Texas, this permission is sometimes said to have been granted at the time of Texas's admission as a state. Other times it is said to have been included in the terms readmitting Texas to the Union after the Civil War.

In fact, Texas received no special terms in its admission to the Union. Once Texas had agreed to join the Union, she never had the legal option of leaving, either before or after the Civil War.

The early years of the United States had seen a great deal of debate over whether states could, in fact, legally withdraw from the Union. During the War of 1812 it was New England that wanted to secede from the rest of the country. Later, it was the Southern states. Secessionists argued that states were sovereign and had the right to withdraw from the Union. Opponents countered that the Constitution created a sovereign union that, once entered into, could never be broken. Eventually, the question was put to the test and settled permanently on the battlefields of the Civil War.

The Presidential Proclamation declaring peace between the United States and Texas after the Civil War, dated August 20, 1866, states very clearly in the following passage that no state had the right to leave the Union (emphasis added in all capitals):

And whereas,


the President of the United States, by further proclamation issued on the second day of April, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-six, did promulgate and declare, that there no longer existed any armed resistance of misguided citizens, or others, to the authority of the United States in any, or in all the States before mentioned, excepting only the State of Texas, and did further promulgate and declare that the laws could be sustained and enforced in the several States before mentioned, except Texas, by the proper civil authorities, State, or Federal, and that the people of the said States, except Texas, are well and loyally disposed, and have conformed or will conform in their legislation to the condition of affairs growing out of the amendment to the Constitution of the United States, prohibiting slavery within the limits and jurisdiction of the United States;

And did further declare in the same proclamation THAT IT IS THE MANIFEST DETERMINATION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT NO STATE, OF ITS OWN WILL, HAS A RIGHT OR POWER TO GO OUT OF OR SEPARATE ITSELF FROM, OR BE SEPARATED FROM THE AMERICAN UNION; and that, therefore, each State ought to remain and constitute an integral part of the United States;

On March 30, 1870, Congress passed the Act to admit the State of Texas to Representation in the Congress of the United States. Likewise, this act contains no language that would allow Texas to unilaterally withdraw from the United States. "<

https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question11.html

For those unfamiliar with "Texas v White" -> Texas v. White | LII / Legal Information Institute
 
Secession was always illegal. The question only came before the SCOTUS after the Civil War. Secession was treason and an attempt to overturn a democratic result.

You keep saying, "overturn a democratic result"

Nobody was overturning the election of Abraham Lincoln as the President. They were just deciding that they weren't going to be ruled by him. (And make no mistake, his presidency was more of a "Rulership" than anything else)

As stated in the Declaration of Independence...
DOI said:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
 
I will tell you this. If I was ever a commander in war I would pray to god I got a moron who thought honor belongs on a battlefield, it would make my job so much easier. There is NO honor in war, those that fail to recognize that will be doomed to failure. War is life and death literally. Winning is a chance at life, loosing is death. If you aint cheating you aint trying. Equality sucks in war, lots of people die for no good reason.

Well, I'm glad you're not a high ranking military commander. If there were no rules or honor in warfare then why not use nukes or poison gas against any enemy population? Why not kill every prisoner of war and rape and pillage conquored areas?

But there should be little mercy given to terrorist armies like ISIS and al Queada. They have not signed the Geneva Convention, and do not fight using the rules of warfare. Therefore, all such fighters caught on any evidence of being fighters or supporters of such should be killed on the spot. Any mosuque or school or other civilian structure used for military purposes should be flattened to the earth after a 30 minute warning.
 
Well, I'm glad you're not a high ranking military commander. If there were no rules or honor in warfare then why not use nukes or poison gas against any enemy population? Why not kill every prisoner of war and rape and pillage conquored areas?

But there should be little mercy given to terrorist armies like ISIS and al Queada. They have not signed the Geneva Convention, and do not fight using the rules of warfare. Therefore, all such fighters caught on any evidence of being fighters or supporters of such should be killed on the spot. Any mosuque or school or other civilian structure used for military purposes should be flattened to the earth after a 30 minute warning.

Talk about hypocritical. You say Sherman is a terrorist when he was doing the same as you would, including warning the civilian population. Lordy.

And yes I would use nukes and poison gas and biologics. Raping and pillaging take to long.
 
Talk about hypocritical. You say Sherman is a terrorist when he was doing the same as you would, including warning the civilian population. Lordy.

And yes I would use nukes and poison gas and biologics. Raping and pillaging take to long.

I don't think I'm being a hypocrite. During Sherman's March, he was under the Lieber Code, among known rules or coduct, written and unwritten:

Ethical treatment[edit]

The document insisted upon the humane, ethical treatment of populations in occupied areas. It was the first expressly codified law that expressly forbade giving "no quarter" to the enemy (i.e., killing prisoners of war), except in such cases when the survival of the unit that held these prisoners was threatened. It forbade the use of poisons, stating that use of such puts any force who uses them entirely outside the pale of the civilized nations and peoples; it forbade the use of torture to extract confessions; it described the rights and duties of prisoners of war and of capturing forces. It described the state of war, the state of occupied territories, the ends of war, and discusses permissible and impermissible means to attain those ends; it discussed the nature of states and sovereignties, and insurrections, rebellions, and wars. As such, it is widely considered to be the first written recital of the customary law of war, in force between the civilized nations and peoples since time immemorial, and the precursor to the Hague Regulations of 1907, the treaty-based restatement of the customary law of war.

In the Civil War[edit]

Historians have often dismissed the role of the Code in the war effort. While it is true that commanders such as William Tecumseh Sherman rarely, if ever, consulted the Code in making combat decisions, the Code played a significant role nonetheless in the war's last two years. It provided a blueprint for hundreds of military commissions charging law of war violations. Also, its provisions on black soldiers bolstered the Union's unpopular decision to cease prisoner exchanges so long as the South refused to exchange black prisoners on equal terms with white ones
Lieber Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I were a commander on either side during the Civil War, I treat the enemy pretty much as the rules of war dictate now. That's for those in uniform. Those caught figthing out of uniform are spies, and would be jailed or executed.

I would only do surgical nukes on mainly military targets these days if conditions merited their use.
 
You keep saying, "overturn a democratic result"

Nobody was overturning the election of Abraham Lincoln as the President. They were just deciding that they weren't going to be ruled by him. (And make no mistake, his presidency was more of a "Rulership" than anything else)

As stated in the Declaration of Independence...

They were attempting to overturn the election result.
 
By attempting to secede they attempted to overturn the result. Lincoln was their legitimate President; they attempted to set up another.

But, not overthrow the United States government.
 
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