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The Great Abortion Debate Divide

What? You are jealous now that the street corners you worked did not have music?

Obviously you aren't aware of Ten's former occupation which she readily discusses on these forums and so thought you had a swell opportunity to continue your asinine jabs at me.:roll:
 
You said "SUICIDAL" depression. One can be committed against one's will due to suicidal threats. The reason one can be committed against one's will is because one does not have the capacity for rational judgement as evidenced by threats of suicide.

It has nothing to do with rationality, judgment, competence, or any other such word. You can be committed involuntarily if and only if you are considered a danger to yourself or others.
 
No "hyperpole" was what Ten did when she had fast music playing at the strip club she worked at.;)

Good one, Felicity, OK I made a mistake.




You said "SUICIDAL" depression. One can be committed against one's will due to suicidal threats. The reason one can be committed against one's will is because one does not have the capacity for rational judgement as evidenced by threats of suicide.

PBA for any reason is rare. Suicidal depression is rare. PBA for suicidal depression is even more rare. Should a pregnant woman with suicidal depression have to be handcuffed to the bed for 3 or 4 months, or could we allow a doctor to determine if abortion would be the best course of action?
 
Basically, a women has gotten to this point of D & X not exercising the right to choose an abortion by 3 or 4 months into the pregnency and thus, this must be considered a tacit choice to have the baby. In other words, the deadline to make a decision is not the day of birth, but is actually somewhere around the date of viability, which I will call, for the sake of a clear definition, week 20.


Due to this, D & X is NOT a "woman's right-to-choose" debate. It's only a right-to-life debate. And it comes down to who has a greater "right to life", the mother or the fetus?

Since we must determine that neither entity has a right to decide for the other, we need to get very specific in our definitions here.

I would propose that in every case, the doctor must look at the risks to the mother for actually delivering the baby earlier in the term, and weigh this against the risks that teh motehr will face.

Since we are working with TWO viable lives, we need to consider the best interests of both.

In cases where the mother's life is severely and immediately threatened by continuing the pregnancy AND delivering the baby, a D & X should be considered a valid option.

In ALL OTHER CASES the best plan of approach is the one that give BOTH entities the best chance for survival.


This is not a case of a woman just "forgetting" to have an early abortion. Women don't CHOOSE to have late-term abortions. They have "bonded" with the fetus by then. Late-term abortions are done for medical reasons.

D&X procedure (a.k.a.Partial Birth Abortion) - All sides
"3rd Trimester: They are also very rarely performed in late pregnancy. The most common justifications at that time are: The fetus is dead.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus."



I'm personally in favor of the right to choose.

I agree.
 
or could we allow a doctor to determine if abortion would be the best course of action?
An "abortion doctor?" No. Referral to a psychiatrist/psychologist for evaluation is the only thing in order for a person threatening suicide for ANY reason. A doctor making a determination of competency and ability to give informed consent of a person actively threatening suicide is opening himself up to be liable for WHATEVER the woman later does or claims.
 
Obviously you aren't aware of Ten's former occupation which she readily discusses on these forums and so thought you had a swell opportunity to continue your asinine jabs at me.:roll:
No, my remarks were, what turns out to be, a futile attempt to point out your philistine behavior in debating. Whenever you make a mistake or a simply wrong, you resort to name calling. What you disagree with , instead of refuting, you dismiss and label it wrong. Such crass attitudes may bring you momentary satisfaction, but clearly are not conducive to civil discourse.
But to answer you post, no I was not aware of her past occupation, nor do I care, nor is it relevant to the discussion, unless you are trying to claim victory by belittling those who do not agree with you.
I also wonder why you take exception to the notion of: 'Do onto others...'
 
An "abortion doctor?" No. Referral to a psychiatrist/psychologist for evaluation is the only thing in order for a person threatening suicide for ANY reason. A doctor making a determination of competency and ability to give informed consent of a person actively threatening suicide is opening himself up to be liable for WHATEVER the woman later does or claims.

I believe her post said "doctor", not "abortion doctor". Aren't psychiatrists doctors? :confused:
 
I have question:

Whats the difference between a well-developed fetus(9+weeks) and a born-breathing baby(which, we all know has a life?).
 
Obviously you aren't aware of Ten's former occupation which she readily discusses on these forums and so thought you had a swell opportunity to continue your asinine jabs at me.:roll:

What "former occupation"?
I wasn't a prostitute. That was Rivrrat.
I was for display only.
 
I have question:

Whats the difference between a well-developed fetus(9+weeks) and a born-breathing baby(which, we all know has a life?).

consciousness, awareness, self-movement, ability to feel

Or maybe even: a complete cerebral cortex
 
I have question:

Whats the difference between a well-developed fetus(9+weeks) and a born-breathing baby(which, we all know has a life?).

1. 30 weeks, more or less.
2. Physical dependence vs. social dependence
3. citizenship
4. a functioning brain

What do you think the difference is?
 
consciousness, awareness, self-movement, ability to feel

Or maybe even: a complete cerebral cortex

Ok, is that it? No really, lets just put all cards on the table, what are all the fundamental differences?
 
I believe her post said "doctor", not "abortion doctor". Aren't psychiatrists doctors? :confused:

Yes...I was making a clarification. Grannie was claiming that late term abortions were done for suicidal.....you know...just read it in context of the posts--it makes sense to clarify with the KIND of doctor... Psychiatrists don't perform abortions:doh
 
What "former occupation"?
I wasn't a prostitute. That was Rivrrat.
I was for display only.

I referred to your dancing only--prometeus made the snide prostitution link and referenced it to me.;)
 
Ok, is that it? No really, lets just put all cards on the table, what are all the fundamental differences?

I just told you.


Yes...I was making a clarification. Grannie was claiming that late term abortions were done for suicidal.....you know...just read it in context of the posts--it makes sense to clarify with the KIND of doctor... Psychiatrists don't perform abortions:doh

Because ONLY a doctor who performs abortions him/herself would EVER recommend one to someone, right?
 
Because ONLY a doctor who performs abortions him/herself would EVER recommend one to someone, right?

What are you talking about? A psychiatrist RECOMMENDING an abortion? :confused:
 
What are you talking about? A psychiatrist RECOMMENDING an abortion? :confused:

ANY doctor. A doctor recommending abortion most certainly does NOT have to be a doctor that performs abortions. Your immediate leap to such a conclusion is more telling than you think.
 
ANY doctor. A doctor recommending abortion most certainly does NOT have to be a doctor that performs abortions. Your immediate leap to such a conclusion is more telling than you think.

I don't think you are following what the discussion was and why Grannie and I were discussing the doctors. If you were, I'm really not understanding your point. Can you explain in context of late term abortion being performed for the reason of suicidal threats made by the pregnant woman and how an abortion doctor can consider her able to give informed consent, or how a psychiatrist or any doctor could "recommend" a late term abortion as treatment for suicidal depression? I'm confused by your comments in the context of the discussion.
 
I believe the real question is should the government decide this based on religious beliefs or not. Personally, I do not believe the government should be deciding anything purely because of what any religion believes. It is a dangerous precedent to set.

Let's roll the clock forward - 2030 - our population is over 50% catholic (which it likely will be given the number of catholics already in the county plus the projected increase in the overwhelmingly catholic Hispanic population) - obtaining birth control pills could be outlawed. How would you feel about that?

Hi Frolicking Dinosaurs.

I think you made a great post but I think you've made the mistake of assuming that people's views on abortion are entirely down to their religious beliefs. I have friends who are atheists and yet opposed to abortion; my husband is an agnostic and his angle is that it should be up to the woman to decide; my own point of view is Christian (Protestant) but I feel as I do out of moral issues, not out of religious ones. (That probably sounds really weird!)

Let's try to run it by you this way. If you believe in the right to life of every human being, that has to include the rights of the unborn to their lives.

Genetically there's NO difference between the DNA of a fetus and a baby.

We have laws against infanticide and that's not based on religious beliefs.

The only difference between abortion and infanticide is timing.

Every other way they're the same thing.
 
Hi Frolicking Dinosaurs.

I think you made a great post but I think you've made the mistake of assuming that people's views on abortion are entirely down to their religious beliefs. I have friends who are atheists and yet opposed to abortion; my husband is an agnostic and his angle is that it should be up to the woman to decide; my own point of view is Christian (Protestant) but I feel as I do out of moral issues, not out of religious ones. (That probably sounds really weird!)

Religious upbringing and anti-abortion views are correlated, but it is not necessarily true that there is a causal relationship. Religious influnce throughout life (not necessarily religious views) and views on abortion are definitely related though.

Let's try to run it by you this way. If you believe in the right to life of every human being, that has to include the rights of the unborn to their lives.

Genetically there's NO difference between the DNA of a fetus and a baby.

The flaw in that logic is that its only true if you define "human being" as a sequence of purines. Most people agree that we are greater than complex sequences of adenine, thymine, guanine, and cytocine.

Being human is far, far more than having a sequence of DNA. This can be proven by the fact that a corpse has identical DNA to a living human being, yet one is alive, and one is meat.

The corpse does NOT have the same right to life as the living human being. Therefore, this definition CANNOt be used in conjunction with the argument that all human beings have an equal right to life.



But if seems clear that to be a "human being" is greater than having a specific sequence to the double-helix.

Now the differing opinions are not when potential humanity exists (even gametes are potential human beings). It is when true humanity exists.

This becomes a Faith-based argument in all cases because what makes us "human beings" is an unprovable argument. Just like the argument of when life begins. Even more important to the debate is when does human life begin.



We have laws against infanticide and that's not based on religious beliefs.

True. The bible actually supports infantacide in exodus.

The only difference between abortion and infanticide is timing.

Every other way they're the same thing.

Again that is only true if you have a different, literal defininition of Human being, but that definition does NOT allow for all human beings to have an equal right to life.










I only say this because if both side realized how their argumetns are totally faith-based, a greater understanding of the issue can be reached. The status quo of teh debate is that one side is "right" while the other is "wrong".

But it is definitely a subjective truth.

Logically, both sides can be argued, but neither can be argued perfectly. The subjective definition of what makes us human is the point of contention. When does HUMANITY begin. Not "life".

Life is constant throughout the process. A gamete is definitely alive. And it is definitely an integral part of the human life-cycle.

The argument that it doesn't become human until it's DNA is correct (chomosomes linked up) means that those afflicted with Downs Syndrome or Williams Syndrome or any other one of the disorders based on having drastically abnormal DNA (incorrect # of chromosomes) no longer QUALIFY as human and thus, lose their "right to life" by this argument.

At the same time, as described above, the "human DNA = human life" argument fails when corpses and other things that have the same exact DNA come into play.

The DNA-based definition of humanity fails as a logical exercise because it forces equivocation when it is applied into argument sabout right to life.

You can define humanity as a sequence of DNA, but you cannot use that definition as a logical argument in a right to life debate.

You need to redefine humanity as something related what is commonly called the "soul" for a right to life debate to exist.

The "person/self" of the being is the integral factor in the debate.

This is why the scientifically defined aspect of viabiltiy is a key factor in the logical debate.

"Self" can be scientifically deterimined to be when the fetus becomes CAPABLE of being autonomous for it's life-functions. It consumes it's own food, it regulates it's own transfer of oxygen/carbon dioxide etc.

It doesn not necessarily need to be efficient at these life functions (need a respirator/feeding tube etc) it just needs to be capable of the tranfers biologically.

This definition of "human being" does not suffer the same flaws as the DNA argument because equivocation is not necessary in order to exclude clear non-humans (such as corpses which are no longer capable of being autonomous for life functions).

But of course this logical argument is totally inneffective for abortions prior to viability.
 
I don't think you are following what the discussion was and why Grannie and I were discussing the doctors. If you were, I'm really not understanding your point. Can you explain in context of late term abortion being performed for the reason of suicidal threats made by the pregnant woman and how an abortion doctor can consider her able to give informed consent, or how a psychiatrist or any doctor could "recommend" a late term abortion as treatment for suicidal depression? I'm confused by your comments in the context of the discussion.

Ahh.. Here I thought it relevant to a discussion about women being mentally or physically damaged by their pregnancy that a late term abortion was necessary to her physical and mental health, to correct you in your implication that only "abortion doctors" would recommend an abortion in such a case, as opposed to a gyno, or therapist, or whomever.

After all, if a woman is suicidal about her pregnancy, why wouldn't a psychiatrist, or general practictioner, or whomevr, agree with her that abortion would be her best bet to cease her emotional, mental, and physical damage?

And, unlike you, I don't consider someone in so much pain they're suicidal to be "unfit to make decisions on their own".
 
And, unlike you, I don't consider someone in so much pain they're suicidal to be "unfit to make decisions on their own".
However, a doctor (other than a psychiatrist) would be liable unless he urged a second opinion from a psychiatric expert who could determine that.
 
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I really don't know what to think about abortion. The Bible goes both ways on the issue and I don't think any of us humans have the knowledge or right to say when life begins or ends. The Bible talks about how God knew us before we were born, but also if a murderer killed a pregnant woman he only got the crime of killing one person. This issue seems to always go in circles and I don't know what will or ever will get me to sway to one side of this issue. I do think sometimes that what if pro choice people are wrong. What a case of genocide we have on our hands. And what if the pro life people are wrong....well, so what. Nobody dies. There are a lot of unwanted children. But thats not as bad as mass genocide. I don't know. Sometimes i think it might be better to be safe rather than sorry.
 
Sometimes i think it might be better to be safe rather than sorry.


Abortion is SAFER than pregnancy/childbirth for a woman. Very few women who had abortions are sorry for their choice. Some say they are sorry the choice had to be made, but they do not regret their decisions.
 
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