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The Government our American Founders Warned Us About

Wehrwolfen

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By Chris Shugart
June 20, 2013

In one sense, Republicans and Democrats are nearly the same. While they may have different philosophies that motivate their actions, the results are usually identical: An impenetrable bureaucracy that’s expensive to run and difficult to control. Sadly, it’s a trend that neither side seems interested in changing. Maybe they think we won’t notice. And maybe they’re right.

I think it might be time to revise the traditional left/right political spectrum we use to describe American politics. We may need a new way to define the current political landscape, perhaps focusing less on ideology and more on the existing scene we’re now facing. It might even be time to view the nature of government with the same perspective as the American Founders.

The framers of the U.S Constitution were well aware of the historic trend of government. They knew that ruling entities that endured over time evolved towards greater power, gradually increasing control over their nation’s citizens. The Constitution was designed in part to remedy this.

The Founder’s vision of a limited government was a remarkable innovation for its time that was meant to maintain the rights of the individual citizen, and preserve the power of the individual states. Their concept had little to do with left versus right, or liberal versus conservative. Rather, they were largely motivated by the creation of a republic that would not descend into a state of tyranny—a fate that history seemed to show was in the end, inevitable.

I’m proposing a new method of evaluating politics that will measure our government according to the power they have over their citizens. I’m hoping that it will be an effective way to get a simple representation of our politicians and the policies they support. I think it can also serve as a gauge to judge legislative proposals in a way that frames every argument into its basic essentials: size and complexity—the two things that make our government expensive to run and difficult to control.

The left end of the spectrum represents 100 percent government—the domain of dictators, despots, and totalitarian regimes. The right end represents a 100 percent stateless society where you find anarchists*, sovereign citizens, and anti-government groups. The midpoint represents a theoretical equilibrium where the state and the citizen are equally balanced. You’ll find that Americans lean towards one end or the other, depending on their views on the role of government in society.


[Excerpt]

Read more:
The Government our American Founders Warned Us About - Uncommon Sense

We can only hope that the seeds of Liberty planted in America will grow stronger than those of Progressive Marxism.
 

TheDemSocialist

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By Chris Shugart
June 20, 2013

In one sense, Republicans and Democrats are nearly the same. While they may have different philosophies that motivate their actions, the results are usually identical: An impenetrable bureaucracy that’s expensive to run and difficult to control. Sadly, it’s a trend that neither side seems interested in changing. Maybe they think we won’t notice. And maybe they’re right.

I think it might be time to revise the traditional left/right political spectrum we use to describe American politics. We may need a new way to define the current political landscape, perhaps focusing less on ideology and more on the existing scene we’re now facing. It might even be time to view the nature of government with the same perspective as the American Founders.

The framers of the U.S Constitution were well aware of the historic trend of government. They knew that ruling entities that endured over time evolved towards greater power, gradually increasing control over their nation’s citizens. The Constitution was designed in part to remedy this.

The Founder’s vision of a limited government was a remarkable innovation for its time that was meant to maintain the rights of the individual citizen, and preserve the power of the individual states. Their concept had little to do with left versus right, or liberal versus conservative. Rather, they were largely motivated by the creation of a republic that would not descend into a state of tyranny—a fate that history seemed to show was in the end, inevitable.

I’m proposing a new method of evaluating politics that will measure our government according to the power they have over their citizens. I’m hoping that it will be an effective way to get a simple representation of our politicians and the policies they support. I think it can also serve as a gauge to judge legislative proposals in a way that frames every argument into its basic essentials: size and complexity—the two things that make our government expensive to run and difficult to control.

The left end of the spectrum represents 100 percent government—the domain of dictators, despots, and totalitarian regimes. The right end represents a 100 percent stateless society where you find anarchists*, sovereign citizens, and anti-government groups. The midpoint represents a theoretical equilibrium where the state and the citizen are equally balanced. You’ll find that Americans lean towards one end or the other, depending on their views on the role of government in society.


[Excerpt]

Read more:
The Government our American Founders Warned Us About - Uncommon Sense

We can only hope that the seeds of Liberty planted in America will grow stronger than those of Progressive Marxism.

Same **** different day :yawn:
 

JC Callender

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I think it's all about will. When the citizens have the will to take back the power from the politicians, we'll do it. Unfortunately, our politicians have an incredible amount of ambition and will power, so it'll probably take an enormous disaster for us to have the will to challenge them and cut government significantly.
 

polgara

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I think it's all about will. When the citizens have the will to take back the power from the politicians, we'll do it. Unfortunately, our politicians have an incredible amount of ambition and will power, so it'll probably take an enormous disaster for us to have the will to challenge them and cut government significantly.

:agree: Although I'd hate to see an enormous disaster as the precipitator!

Good evening, JC. :2wave:
 

Visbek

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The left end of the spectrum represents 100 percent government—the domain of dictators, despots, and totalitarian regimes. The right end represents a 100 percent stateless society where you find anarchists*, sovereign citizens, and anti-government groups.
Or not

To start with, there are plenty on the left who are anti-government. Anarchism has a long tradition of anti-capitalist, anti-government, pro-collective action. Many less extreme leftists stand against autocracy, promote democracy. The Occupy movement, for example, was entirely typical of leftists; many were just too young to realize there was actually a history there.

The number of dictators on the right is long and deep. Shah Reza, Idi Amin, Pinochet, Peron, Diem, Franco, Suharto, Hussein, Mubarak, Noriega, Duvalier.... Lots of brutality in that list. And, of course, support from a variety of American administrations.

Your attempt to characterize leftism as autocratic has no basis.


We can only hope that the seeds of Liberty planted in America will grow stronger than those of Progressive Marxism.
Uh, dude? Marxism and Communism are pretty much done, over, finished in most of the West.
 

JC Callender

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Evening Polgara :2wave:

It would be nice to avoid that, but highly unlikely IMO. :damn

:agree: Although I'd hate to see an enormous disaster as the precipitator!

Good evening, JC. :2wave:
 

polgara

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Evening Polgara :2wave:

It would be nice to avoid that, but highly unlikely IMO. :damn

I had an interesting conversation with one of my daughter's friends the other day, and he said he was going to make the prediction that it won't be blacks or Mexicans that will eventually cause a revolution in this Country, but the whites! He felt that with all the **** going on, whites who have totally had it will eventually run out of patience with the status quo. Now understand that this was a native Texan talking, and they are stubborn and freedom loving, but who knows? :shock:
 

JC Callender

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Maybe, but I think it will take the will of all of us (or at least most) to take on our government and win. :boxer

I had an interesting conversation with one of my daughter's friends the other day, and he said he was going to make the prediction that it won't be blacks or Mexicans that will eventually cause a revolution in this Country, but the whites! He felt that with all the **** going on, whites who have totally had it will eventually run out of patience with the status quo. Now understand that this was a native Texan talking, and they are stubborn and freedom loving, but who knows? :shock:
 

Wehrwolfen

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Or not

To start with, there are plenty on the left who are anti-government. Anarchism has a long tradition of anti-capitalist, anti-government, pro-collective action. Many less extreme leftists stand against autocracy, promote democracy. The Occupy movement, for example, was entirely typical of leftists; many were just too young to realize there was actually a history there.

The number of dictators on the right is long and deep. Shah Reza, Idi Amin, Pinochet, Peron, Diem, Franco, Suharto, Hussein, Mubarak, Noriega, Duvalier.... Lots of brutality in that list. And, of course, support from a variety of American administrations.

Your attempt to characterize leftism as autocratic has no basis.



Uh, dude? Marxism and Communism are pretty much done, over, finished in most of the West.

Maybe you should send that note to Obama. I think he believes it still exists. Certainly Putin doesn't think so. I'm sure that Frank Marshal Davis is applauding Obama's achievements, Wherever he is.
 
Last edited:

specklebang

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It seems our founders let us down by writing such a minimalistic constitution. Instead of the warning, a few more pages might have cleared things up.
 

Paschendale

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Our elected officials only have power that we give them, and then we allow them to sell their allegiance to the highest bidder. It is the overreach of private money that has set us down a dangerous path. The situation is not "people against the government". The government is a tool, to accomplish the aims of those whom it serves. It used to serve us. Now it serves only the interests of the wealthiest among us. You want a government that is truly representative of the people? Stop letting private interests fund election campaigns, do away with this constant electioneering, lower the bar (legal and economic) for independent candidates to run with publicly financed elections, and stop trying to keep American citizens from voting. Take the power from the lobbies and corporations and put it back in the hands of the people. Get the money out of politics.
 

specklebang

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Unfortunately, the only people that can make these changes are the people who are already in a position to resist that change.

Will the revolution be televised?


Our elected officials only have power that we give them, and then we allow them to sell their allegiance to the highest bidder. It is the overreach of private money that has set us down a dangerous path. The situation is not "people against the government". The government is a tool, to accomplish the aims of those whom it serves. It used to serve us. Now it serves only the interests of the wealthiest among us. You want a government that is truly representative of the people? Stop letting private interests fund election campaigns, do away with this constant electioneering, lower the bar (legal and economic) for independent candidates to run with publicly financed elections, and stop trying to keep American citizens from voting. Take the power from the lobbies and corporations and put it back in the hands of the people. Get the money out of politics.
 

Paschendale

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Unfortunately, the only people that can make these changes are the people who are already in a position to resist that change.

Will the revolution be televised?

Well, stick with me, cuz I am working to change that.
 

What if...?

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Our elected officials only have power that we give them, and then we allow them to sell their allegiance to the highest bidder. It is the overreach of private money that has set us down a dangerous path. The situation is not "people against the government". The government is a tool, to accomplish the aims of those whom it serves. It used to serve us. Now it serves only the interests of the wealthiest among us. You want a government that is truly representative of the people? Stop letting private interests fund election campaigns, do away with this constant electioneering, lower the bar (legal and economic) for independent candidates to run with publicly financed elections, and stop trying to keep American citizens from voting. Take the power from the lobbies and corporations and put it back in the hands of the people. Get the money out of politics.

The trick is getting the foxes to vote away their henhouse.
 

fmw

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I think it's all about will. When the citizens have the will to take back the power from the politicians, we'll do it. Unfortunately, our politicians have an incredible amount of ambition and will power, so it'll probably take an enormous disaster for us to have the will to challenge them and cut government significantly.

It's all about money. Half the population pays for government and the other half benefits from it. The way to fix it is to have everybody pay for it.
 

Jetboogieman

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Seems a bit ironic looking to the founders for guidance against tyranny when they set up a system of governance that in the beginning only allowed rich white land owners to vote...

I really dont understand all this founding father worship.

It's really not healthy.
 

Fisher

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Seems a bit ironic looking to the founders for guidance against tyranny when they set up a system of governance that in the beginning only allowed rich white land owners to vote...

I really dont understand all this founding father worship.

It's really not healthy.

That is not actually exactly true. It was more modeled off ancient Athens law and intended to give a say to those who actually have a vested interest in the success of the nation. They were not all "rich" and the original set up was intended to give people as little control over their neighbors as possible through the government.
 
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