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The General Welfare Clause Discussion/Debate

Tell me, Wist... when exactly did this "cabal" take over the country? Give me a time frame here. Was it before or after the Panic of 1907, when the Federal Government was essentially powerless to right the economy, but private financiers like J. P. Morgan had the power to essentially walk into the NYSE and turn everything around single-handed?

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My interest in what you are referencing is piqued.

However, should we discuss this somewhere else.

If it has ties to the General Welfare Clause, please help me connect the dots.
 
As James Madison said, if "general welfare" were an actual grant of power, then the FedGov would possess unlimited power, because anything, literally anything, could be argued to be in the "general wefare".

And that is why America is collapsing, i.e., because the government does do anything those who control it to do.
It is the scope of the power. Our defense clause cannot be any more general than our welfare clause.
 
They're operating in the red now. But that's not the point.

And there are trust funds that hold a fair percentage of our gross debt. But that's not the point either.

And Social Security and Medicare did just about go broke in the early 80's - their assets were just about down to nothing. But Reagan reformed it and put it on a track where it could accumulate substantial reserves for 30 years... but with the retirement of the Baby Boomers and other factors, those reserves have been drawn upon since the Bush (43) Administration. We need another 1983-style reform of the system, and I imagine that will be one of the main issues of the 2024 campaign. But, again, not the point.

All I asked is if they constitute a legitimate tax on income in line with the 16th Amendment... and from your answer, I'll infer that you are in agreement that they are. Would I be correct in that assumption?
Time to remove the cap on earnings and replace it with a floor. No FICA taxes on first $X amount of earnings, then FICA on all the rest. Additionally, time to place FICA taxes on those that derive their wealth from investments also.
 
My interest in what you are referencing is piqued.

However, should we discuss this somewhere else.

If it has ties to the General Welfare Clause, please help me connect the dots.

Not really any connection - I'm just calling out Wist for his conspiracy theories.
 
Time to remove the cap on earnings and replace it with a floor. No FICA taxes on first $X amount of earnings, then FICA on all the rest. Additionally, time to place FICA taxes on those that derive their wealth from investments also.

I'd agree with you on eliminating the ceiling, but not on the floor. I think it's important that everyone contributes the same percentage of their salary, regardless of income.
 
I'd agree with you on eliminating the ceiling, but not on the floor. I think it's important that everyone contributes the same percentage of their salary, regardless of income.
All people pay taxes (sales, gas, etc). I see no benefit in taking taxes from people that can't afford basic living expenses while some use their funds for personal space flight. Remember, the poorest among us are unlikely to be able to benefit from the tax advantages of those that are more wealthy (mortgage interest deductions and IRA deductions for example).
 
All people pay taxes (sales, gas, etc). I see no benefit in taking taxes from people that can't afford basic living expenses while some use their funds for personal space flight. Remember, the poorest among us are unlikely to be able to benefit from the tax advantages of those that are more wealthy (mortgage interest deductions and IRA deductions for example).

I look at this way, Mrjurrs - the wealthy are getting a sweetheart deal in this country.... but so are the poor. I've got no problem whatsoever with pumping whatever resources it takes to expand job training and education and labor services. Healthcare, subsidized child care so parents can get into the workforce, disability assistance. Whatever it takes. Throw the whole kitchen sink at the problem of poverty.

But you know as well as I do that even if we do that full-court press on poverty, there are still going to be a significant portion of the population that are still going to be lazy sacks of ****. Nothing you can do about that. Doesn't mean we have to reward'em though. If you spend your whole working life on the couch and not getting out there and being productive - despite all of the incentives we put out there to help get you work - well, then you shouldn't have any expectation of anything extra once you "retire".
 
I look at this way, Mrjurrs - the wealthy are getting a sweetheart deal in this country.... but so are the poor. I've got no problem whatsoever with pumping whatever resources it takes to expand job training and education and labor services. Healthcare, subsidized child care so parents can get into the workforce, disability assistance. Whatever it takes. Throw the whole kitchen sink at the problem of poverty.

But you know as well as I do that even if we do that full-court press on poverty, there are still going to be a significant portion of the population that are still going to be lazy sacks of ****. Nothing you can do about that. Doesn't mean we have to reward'em though. If you spend your whole working life on the couch and not getting out there and being productive - despite all of the incentives we put out there to help get you work - well, then you shouldn't have any expectation of anything extra once you "retire".
I reject the proposition that a few outliers override the benefit to the whole. Do you feel the same way about people born to rich families that do nothing but spend their inherited wealth?
 
I reject the proposition that a few outliers override the benefit to the whole. Do you feel the same way about people born to rich families that do nothing but spend their inherited wealth?

Absolutely. I think estate taxes need to be much higher, as do income taxes on the higher end. And capital gains should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income.

I just don't the poor a "pass". I do think if we're going to go down this road on investing in people at the lower-end of the income spectrum, then we have to be ready to provide "tough love" policies as well. I don't mind giving people every hand up they ever need... what I object to are the hand-outs - and that holds true whether they go to the wealthy or the poor.
 
And both of them - along with payment of the debt - encompass spending areas not specifically enumerated in the clauses that follow the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Why do right-wingers have a problem doing this with our tax monies:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
There are basically two views of the general welfare clause, one is the Madisonian view--that the phrase "provide for the common defense and general welfare", means that Congress can levy taxes only to perform its specific enumerated powers.

The other is the view of Justice Joseph Story who in 1833 espoused a Hamiltonian view that while the clause is not an unlimited grant, it is a qualification on the power to tax only in that it means the Congress can levy taxes to spend as revenue on "matters of general interest to the Federal government."

As is unfortunate many people assume the constitution is written in black and white with unambiguous factual answers for every line of text. The truth is the clause's meaning was disputed in 1788, disputed 50 years after that, and still disputed into the 1930s. The constitution is not like source code to a computer program that only functions in pre-defined ways, much of it is broad statements open to interpretation and with conflicting views by the Founding Fathers. Generally speaking, we do have a veto over congressional interpretations we disagree with--we can remove them from office in elections. That and the Presidential veto were intended to be the two primary checks on Congressional actions that were seen as out of sync with the constitution. Using the courts for it was not clearly intended from the beginning, and only developed over time (judicial review emerged slowly and was not used commonly for some 60 years.)
 
The point is, our welfare clause is General not Common or limited, and must be able to promote or provide for any given contingency.
 
The point is, our welfare clause is General not Common or limited, and must be able to promote or provide for any given contingency.

You keep saying it.

That does not make you any less wrong.
 
I can't be wrong because that is what our Constitution says. Right-wing fantasy cannot make it mean general warfare and common offense.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution, the “general Welfare clause,” is often referred to as the “Taxing and Spending Clause” because of its expansive use today. Many people claim it gives the feds the authority to do anything imaginable as long as it “promotes the general welfare” – however one might define it. But this creates a dilemma. Either James Madison and other supporters of the Constitution were lying when they said the powers of the federal government would be “few and defined,” or people have misconstrued the legal meaning of this clause. The existence of enumerated powers resolves this dilemma. As Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist #83: “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.”


The few and defined term can be found in Federalist #45 where Madison (the guy who used the term General Welfare) is very clear that the Federal government has a specific scope and does not have authority to go fix (or break as the case may be) anything it wants.

Sorry to spoil your fantasy.
 
I can't be wrong because that is what our Constitution says. Right-wing fantasy cannot make it mean general warfare and common offense.

Here is someone else who pretty much buzz-kills your joyride.

According to James Madison, “the most important and fundamental question” he ever addressed was the meaning of and relation between the general welfare clause and the enumeration of particular powers. This question is the most “fundamental” because the answer determines the very “idea” or “nature” of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means. The thesis of this essay, however, is that, contrary to the commentators' claims, Madison argued that the clause was a substantive grant of power for the generally stated end and that the primary purpose of the ensuing enumeration was to define more particularly the ends alluded to by the phrase “general welfare.” Hence, the meaning of the general constitutional government in the American federal system is a government oriented to a limited number of limited ends.


Let's see those terrific counter arguments.
 
Here is someone else who pretty much buzz-kills your joyride.

According to James Madison, “the most important and fundamental question” he ever addressed was the meaning of and relation between the general welfare clause and the enumeration of particular powers. This question is the most “fundamental” because the answer determines the very “idea” or “nature” of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means. The thesis of this essay, however, is that, contrary to the commentators' claims, Madison argued that the clause was a substantive grant of power for the generally stated end and that the primary purpose of the ensuing enumeration was to define more particularly the ends alluded to by the phrase “general welfare.” Hence, the meaning of the general constitutional government in the American federal system is a government oriented to a limited number of limited ends.


Let's see those terrific counter arguments.
The general welfare clause is the scope of the authority for powers that are necessary and proper to achieve that End.
 
Here is someone else who pretty much buzz-kills your joyride.

According to James Madison, “the most important and fundamental question” he ever addressed was the meaning of and relation between the general welfare clause and the enumeration of particular powers. This question is the most “fundamental” because the answer determines the very “idea” or “nature” of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means. The thesis of this essay, however, is that, contrary to the commentators' claims, Madison argued that the clause was a substantive grant of power for the generally stated end and that the primary purpose of the ensuing enumeration was to define more particularly the ends alluded to by the phrase “general welfare.” Hence, the meaning of the general constitutional government in the American federal system is a government oriented to a limited number of limited ends.


Let's see those terrific counter arguments.

The thing of it is that we've never applied the Madisonian formula.... right from the get-go, it has always been Hamilton's formulation that has prevailed. I'd suggest that after 200+ years of precedent and legal rulings, it would make zero sense to not regard the matter as settled law now. If you're looking for a limitation on Federal spending power, I'd suggest it is to be found on the taxation side. The Federal Government's power to spend is at least as broad as it's power to tax.
 
The thing of it is that we've never applied the Madisonian formula.... right from the get-go, it has always been Hamilton's formulation that has prevailed. I'd suggest that after 200+ years of precedent and legal rulings, it would make zero sense to not regard the matter as settled law now. If you're looking for a limitation on Federal spending power, I'd suggest it is to be found on the taxation side. The Federal Government's power to spend is at least as broad as it's power to tax.
Right, this goes back to--there were two interpretations of the clause almost from the moment it was written. This points heavily to it simply not being a clear-cut black letter piece of law, like much of the constitution it is subjective. Congress through its legislation power has some discretion where the Constitution is unclear, and the people have discretion to punish a Congress who interpret subjective portions of the Constitution contrary to the popular will. We also additionally developed judicial review so that the courts could exercise oversight here as well.

Someone can certainly make an argument the Constitution is very strictly one of limited government, and that this and the arguably much more important Commerce Clause were written to intend far more limited Federal government. But that also just isn't how our laws and jurisprudence have developed. No country on earth just "rolls back" its society 200 years in time because someone decides interpretation of subjective text from 1788 was handled improperly for two centuries. We did not magically become a fairly decentralized country with a weak Federal government in 1788 to what we are today by one or two acts, but by hundreds of them spread over two centuries. The people, the courts, have had many opportunities to say "no" and to send things back the other way, they largely never have. The direction we've gone is hard to argue as being against the will of the people, the ultimate arbiters.
 
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