The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare [W:71]

[Ockham]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

A person is not legally bound to meet the ACA minimum required standards for a health care policy. If a person elects NOT to subscribe...then surtax will be added to a person's income tax liabilities.

The IRS can only enforce TAX LAWS. If a person fails to pay the bottom line on their Federal Tax Return...which involves a host of different taxes (income, FICA, medicare, etc.).

As a taxpayer, if you choose not to pay FICA or Medicare...go for it. If you choose not to pay income tax...go for it. Will there be consequences? I'm guessing - YES.

So what does the IRS have to do with enforcing the Act itself? The auspice agency over ACA is the Department of health.

Cite the section in the ACA.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Cite the section in the ACA.

You've made the claim that the IRS is charged with enforcing the ACA...and they simply don't. If anybody needs to cite anything its you.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

You've made the claim that the IRS is charged with enforcing the ACA...and they simply don't. If anybody needs to cite anything its you.

Just because they don't catch everyone who doesn't have healthcare doesn't mean they are in charge of enforcing it. Your argument is like saying the police aren't in charge of enforcing the law because so many get away with breaking it.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Just because they don't catch everyone who doesn't have healthcare doesn't mean they are in charge of enforcing it. Your argument is like saying the police aren't in charge of enforcing the law because so many get away with breaking it.

The Affordable Health Care Act mandates that if persons CHOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE a tax penalty will be imposed. The IRS is only charged with applying a tax as mandated by the ACA. It will be carried out through the standard means of annual tax returns.

The IRS does NOT force any person to adhere to the health care requirements.

If a person refused to pay capital gains taxes, ordinary income tax, FICA, Medicare, etc...there's is no misconceptions that the IRS has the authority to impose consequences for not paying taxes.

But the IRS doesn't have a direct role of enforcing the requirements, conditions, or provisions of the the ACA.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

The Affordable Health Care Act mandates that if persons CHOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE a tax penalty will be imposed. The IRS is only charged with applying a tax as mandated by the ACA. It will be carried out through the standard means of annual tax returns.

No the Act requires people to have health insurance and if they don't then they face the penalty. Kind of like how the government puts up a speed limit on a road and if you choose to ignore it then you might get a ticket.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

No the Act requires people to have health insurance and if they don't then they face the penalty. Kind of like how the government puts up a speed limit on a road and if you choose to ignore it then you might get a ticket.

If people don't have insurance the penalty is?

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

If people don't have insurance the penalty is?

An attachment on your tax refund.

If people go over the speed limit the penalty is?

 

[Samhain]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

If people don't have insurance the penalty is?

The penalty is to restructure your withholdings so you owe at the end of the year. Not so much as a penalty as it is an annoyance.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

An attachment on your tax refund.

If people go over the speed limit the penalty is?

A person is not legally bound to meet the ACA minimum required standards for a health care policy. If a person elects NOT to subscribe...then surtax will be added to a person's income tax liabilities.

The IRS can only enforce TAX LAWS. If a person fails to pay the bottom line on their Federal Tax Return...which involves a host of different taxes (income, FICA, medicare, etc.).

As a taxpayer, if you choose not to pay FICA or Medicare...go for it. If you choose not to pay income tax...go for it. Will there be consequences? I'm guessing - YES.

So what does the IRS have to do with enforcing the Act itself? The auspice agency over ACA is the Department of health.

Let's see here. I can choose to get health insurance..or I can choose to pay a tax penalty?

I can choose, with sound mind, to speed with the full knowledge that if I do, then I'll be fined according to the law within a respective jurisdiction.

I can go to a gas station and asked the owner to remove any state and federal taxes from the gasoline, that I'm simply not paying them. The outcome of that will be?

I can go to the grocery store and tell the checkout clerk that I will not pay the sales tax on the groceries that I just purchased. The outcome of that will be?

The Affordable Health Care Act designates the various parties who are responsible for ensuring that the policies and procedures are carried out by those who the Act applies.

That means that individuals, medical providers and insurance companies, and government agencies will be assigned their respective obligations as defined by the law.

Now if you want to equate the IRS as being the police agency that enforces all of the provisions defined within the the ACA. Be my guest. But legally they can't do that. The tax penalty is a very small part of the overall Act. There is very limited statutory capabilities by the IRS with regard to the ACA.

When there are improprieties by insurance companies, medical providers, or possibly individuals...I strongly suspect that some element of the Justice Department and/or Individual State Regulatory Agencies will be knocking on doors.

The penalty is to restructure your withholdings so you owe at the end of the year. Not so much as a penalty as it is an annoyance.

I agree...it's an added financial burden, no doubt about it.

 

[Samhain]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

I agree...it's an added financial burden, no doubt about it.

If you structure your taxes so you don't get a refund at the end of the year( i.e. actually pay what you are supposed to ), there is no penalty, hence, no added financial tax burden.

And that's just good advice anyway. You shouldn't be giving the government an interest free loan throughout the year.

 

[sangha]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

If you structure your taxes so you don't get a refund at the end of the year( i.e. actually pay what you are supposed to ), there is no penalty, hence, no added financial tax burden.

And that's just good advice anyway. You shouldn't be giving the government an interest free loan throughout the year.

Wrong. The IRS computes your tax liability, and if your withholding is less than that, they will come after you (if your return is audited, and underpaying your tax liability increases the odds of that happening dramatically)

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

If you structure your taxes so you don't get a refund at the end of the year( i.e. actually pay what you are supposed to ), there is no penalty, hence, no added financial tax burden.

And that's just good advice anyway. You shouldn't be giving the government an interest free loan throughout the year.

Well, I always owe on my returns as a rule. It's never unexpected. But you're pretty much right.

 

[Samhain]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Wrong. The IRS computes your tax liability, and if your withholding is less than that, they will come after you (if your return is audited, and underpaying your tax liability increases the odds of that happening dramatically)

Yeah, no they don't. So long as you don't under-pay by a significant %, there are no additional penalties. When you file, you just pay the difference of the underpayment.

I keep mine around 300-500 every year, adjusting my w4 to control the amount of taxes withheld on each check.

 

[sangha]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Yeah, no they don't. So long as you don't under-pay by a significant %, there are no additional penalties. When you file, you just pay the difference of the underpayment.

That is true. If it's not much of an underpayment, you're probably safe.

However, the penalty increases (as a percent of income) each year and if you consistently underpay, odds are you're going to get flagged. And then you'll have to pay.

It's just not true that one can avoid taxes by simply lowering one's withholding. You might get away with it (just as a burglar might get away with his crimes), but it's not good advice and doing so might get you bitten in the ass.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Wrong. The IRS computes your tax liability, and if your withholding is less than that, they will come after you (if your return is audited, and underpaying your tax liability increases the odds of that happening dramatically)

Tax rates are published. There are guidelines for how much tax liability one might have, foregoing wind fall income or unexpected capital gains. Individuals are free to manage their deductions as they deem appropriate to meet their personal income situations. Are they not?

It appeared to me that Samhain was simply saying that individuals should be prudent in how they manage their tax liability payments whether they be through payroll deductions or estimated taxes, whether they are paid quarterly payments...or whatever.

I've underpaid off and on for years. When I file...I pay the difference. I don't engage in unlawful methods of reporting my taxes...thus I've not had any problems. Now, I've made errors, which have resulted in penalties and interest. Thus far, I don't have my picture in the Most Wanted list in every post office. I'm certain that I'm NOT on the IRS's "THIS PERSON IS A TAX CHEATER" list. I simply follow the law and I don't cheat.

If a person underpays...and doesn't remit the difference then they get a bill. If they refuse to pay...welp...mmmmmm....mmmmm on them.

If a person files a return that is flagged because of obvious irregularities or perhaps a blatant attempt at slide of hand...then such a person might soon become a member of the IRS WANTS YOU CLUB.

 

[Samhain]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

That is true. If it's not much of an underpayment, you're probably safe.

However, the penalty increases (as a percent of income) each year and if you consistently underpay, odds are you're going to get flagged. And then you'll have to pay.

It's just not true that one can avoid taxes by simply lowering one's withholding. You might get away with it (just as a burglar might get away with his crimes), but it's not good advice and doing so might get you bitten in the ass.

They would need to change how the ACA penalty is enforced, as it is currently only applicable to those that are due a refund. I don't know of any other tax provision enforced this way, although there are some credits that phase out based on taxes due(total computed liability).

I also don't think they would be allowed to coerce individuals to structure their yearly withholdings to result in a refund.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

They would need to change how the ACA penalty is enforced, as it is currently only applicable to those that are due a refund. I don't know of any other tax provision enforced this way, although there are some credits that phase out based on taxes due(total computed liability).

I also don't think they would be allowed to coerce individuals to structure their yearly withholdings to result in a refund.

The following must be what you're talking about...

Consumers don’t have to report on whether they have coverage or are exempt from the mandate until they file their 2014 income tax return, which are due April 15, 2015. (Insurers will be required to provide everyone they cover with information that will help them demonstrate they had coverage.)

As it stands now, the individuals who don’t obtain health coverage in a given year (and are not exempt from the mandate) are subject to a fine of $95 for an individual or 1% of family income, whichever is greater. In 2015, the penalty increases to $325 per adult, or 2% of family income, whichever is greater.

How exactly will the penalty be assessed? If you don’t have sufficient health coverage by the deadline, the “IRS will hold back the amount of the fee from any future tax refunds,” according to HealthCare.gov, the government’s marketplace website.

But what if you don’t get a tax refund? Conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh picked up on this subject on his show this week, telling listeners: “The only way that they can collect the penalty or the fine is by taking money from your refund. If you are not owed a refund, they cannot get money from you.”

We asked Mark Luscombe, principal analyst at CCH Tax & Accounting North America, about that. Turns out Limbaugh is essentially right. If you don't get a refund next year, the “IRS could carry over the sum due and apply it against any refunds in future years. On a joint return, the penalty of one joint filer could be applied against the refund due to the other joint filer,” Luscombe says.

“If you don’t pay it, all they can do is wait until they owe you some money and take that. Or probably just send you a letter every now and then reminding you that you owe money to the IRS,” says Timothy Jost, a professor at the Washington and Lee University School of Law and coauthor of the casebook “Health Law.”

And by the way, once the IRS assesses the penalty, they’ve got 10 years to collect, says Bryan Camp, law professor at Texas Tech University.

The law also prohibits the IRS from using liens or levies to collect any “payment you owe related to the law, if you, your spouse or a dependent included on your tax return does not have minimum essential coverage,” according to the IRS. That means the IRS cannot go into someone’s “checking accounts anyway and just take the money,” as one of Limbaugh’s callers suggested the Obama administration might just do.

One other possible way for the government to recover the penalty owed is by suing you, says Camp. “It’s a difficult process because it’s the Department of Justice that has to file the suit, and they’ll only do that if the IRS asks and begs them to do it… The IRS can’t sue anyone for failure to pay taxes,” says Camp. If the government sues you for other tax debts, they can add this penalty to the amount. But “if it’s such a small amount, it’s unlikely the government would sue for the same very practical reasons you wouldn’t sue someone for $25,” he says.

That would be a hard game to play...attempting to not get a refund for 10 years...and remain not having health insurance. The wheels of government just keep on turning.

In other words - You can run...but ya can't hide!

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

I can choose, with sound mind, to speed with the full knowledge that if I do, then I'll be fined according to the law within a respective jurisdiction.

Not really. First they have to catch you. Then they may give you a warning or a ticket. If you get a ticket out of State you may be able to ignore it completely. If you get a ticket on a speed camera all they can do is not renew your tags. If you are getting rid of the vehicle before the tag renewal you can ignore it. So apparently it is not much different than the penalty for not having healthcare insurance, what is different are those who are in charge of enforcing the penalty.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Wrong. The IRS computes your tax liability, and if your withholding is less than that, they will come after you (if your return is audited, and underpaying your tax liability increases the odds of that happening dramatically)

Not unless the amount to be refunded or paid is high. You don't have to be exact on your withholdings.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Not really. First they have to catch you. Then they may give you a warning or a ticket. If you get a ticket out of State you may be able to ignore it completely. If you get a ticket on a speed camera all they can do is not renew your tags. If you are getting rid of the vehicle before the tag renewal you can ignore it. So apparently it is not much different than the penalty for not having healthcare insurance, what is different are those who are in charge of enforcing the penalty.

If you insist on calling the IRS the ACA health insurance cops...go ahead. You'll still be wrong.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

If you insist on calling the IRS the ACA health insurance cops...go ahead. You'll still be wrong.

That would be you who calls them that not me. They are just like the cops on traffic patrol though, they are the ones who enforce the penalty.

 

[sangha]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

They would need to change how the ACA penalty is enforced, as it is currently only applicable to those that are due a refund. I don't know of any other tax provision enforced this way, although there are some credits that phase out based on taxes due(total computed liability).

I also don't think they would be allowed to coerce individuals to structure their yearly withholdings to result in a refund.

That is not my understanding. I believe the penalty is simply added to your taxes due. If you don't pay your taxes due, the IRS handles that the way it always does - if it catches you, it comes after you (freezing bank accts, etc)

And no, they can't stop you from declaring a million dependents for withholding purposes. But at the end of the year if your taxes due exceeds what you paid, they can come after you.

The following must be what you're talking about...



That would be a hard game to play...attempting to not get a refund for 10 years...and remain not having health insurance. The wheels of government just keep on turning.

In other words - You can run...but ya can't hide!

So it appears that I was wrong about the IRS coming after you and freezing accts, etc. However, you will have the added headache of making sure you have no refunds coming for years and years. Not the worst thing that can happen to, but doesn't seem worth it to me to take such a risk in order to take a risk of going bankrupt over medical bills.

Your mileage may vary

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

That would be you who calls them that not me. They are just like the cops on traffic patrol though, they are the ones who enforce the penalty.

Did you see the following in my post 392 in relationship to the IRS and the ACA...I think???

The law also prohibits the IRS from using liens or levies to collect any “payment you owe related to the law, if you, your spouse or a dependent included on your tax return does not have minimum essential coverage,” according to the IRS. That means the IRS cannot go into someone’s “checking accounts anyway and just take the money.”

One other possible way for the government to recover the penalty owed is by suing you, says Professor of Law, Camp. “It’s a difficult process because it’s the Department of Justice that has to file the suit, and they’ll only do that if the IRS asks and begs them to do it… The IRS can’t sue anyone for failure to pay taxes,” says Camp. If the government sues you for other tax debts, they can add this penalty to the amount. But “if it’s such a small amount, it’s unlikely the government would sue for the same very practical reasons you wouldn’t sue someone for $25,” he says.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Did you see the following in my post 392 in relationship to the IRS and the ACA...I think???

Yes the IRS is responsible for determining if fines are due just like a cop is responsible for giving you a ticket.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: The Fundamental Problem With ObamaCare

Yes the IRS is responsible for determining if fines are due just like a cop is responsible for giving you a ticket.

No, your wrong.

The Affordable Care Act sets the penalty rates. Individuals report their health care insurance status on their IRS forms as mandated by the Act. If individuals aren't in compliance with the ACA, then the IRS becomes a Collection Agency for the Department of Health, which is the Auspice for the ACA.

If push comes to shove, the Justice Department might be the agency that would have to file suit to collect the money if the IRS isn't able to collect.

Got it?