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the expulsion of Germans in Central and East Europe

It's common knowledge even if rarely discussed.

Generally ethnic cleansing is frowned upon.

But in the wake of World War II and the Holocaust, I think eastern Europe REALLY wanted rid of Germans and frankly I could hardly blame them.

Perhaps wrong, but absolutely inevitable.
 
Safiel said:
It's common knowledge even if rarely discussed.

Generally ethnic cleansing is frowned upon.

But in the wake of World War II and the Holocaust, I think eastern Europe REALLY wanted rid of Germans and frankly I could hardly blame them.

Perhaps wrong, but absolutely inevitable.
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do you know the details?
 
Rumpelstil said:
the topic is hardly talked about, not even in Germany.

what do you know about it?
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Yeah, after multiple years of genocide the Poles and Czechoslovaks were in a rather brutal mood.

Quite frankly it may have saved a fair number of lives down the road.
 
That Europe was even able to survive is epic. The monumental efforts of the allies to house, feed, and etc. all displaced persons during a period of chaos, confusion, retribution was heroic. Add to that the scenario of this thread and it is mind boggling.
I got to Germany 22 years later and we used to laugh when the Germans you met would all say,”Hitler was crazy”. But during the war many of them didn’t see it that way. They suddenly found Jesus when all of the horrors Hitler inflicted on others were inflicted on them.
That the survived WWII is amazing but we won’t be as lucky if the nukes start flying.
Sorry for the ramble.
 
gman said:
That Europe was even able to survive is epic. The monumental efforts of the allies to house, feed, and etc. all displaced persons during a period of chaos, confusion, retribution was heroic. Add to that the scenario of this thread and it is mind boggling.
I got to Germany 22 years later and we used to laugh when the Germans you met would all say,”Hitler was crazy”. But during the war many of them didn’t see it that way. They suddenly found Jesus when all of the horrors Hitler inflicted on others were inflicted on them.
That the survived WWII is amazing but we won’t be as lucky if the nukes start flying.
Sorry for the ramble.
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The generation that lived through that war is slowly passing away- and with them is going all the hard lessons that were learned. It seems every generation wants to learn those lessons the hard way themselves.

For example, the ideas of the United Nations and human rights were born from the horrors and injustices that led to the war. But now those ideas and institutions are all under siege again. Fascism, racism, triabalism, nationalism, hawkishness, etc… are once again rising in the early 21st century in a way dangerously reminiscent of what they looked like in the early 20th century.
 
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The victors also allowed quite a few Germans to starve, and as Saf wrote, no one complains about it (except AfD goons) because **** those guys.

It's sort of like the mulligan the world gave Finland after the same conflict, because **** those Russians.
 
Safiel said:
Perhaps so.

But considering the magnitude of what proceeded it, it was inevitable.

People were pretty ****ing pissed at the Germans by that time.
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it was not inevitable on this scale.
after the defeat of Napoleon, France could even keep some of the conquered land
 
reinaert said:
The victors also allowed quite a few Germans to starve, and as Saf wrote, no one complains about it (except AfD goons) because **** those guys.

It's sort of like the mulligan the world gave Finland after the same conflict, because **** those Russians.
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I don’t know if as you claim that quite a few Germans were allowed to starve as much as it was that the victors were unprepared and overwhelmed by the catastrophe.
 
Rumpelstil said:
that does not make it right
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It's not right, but after Hitler used the protection of ethnic German enclaves as a pretext for annexation, it's not too hard to understand why they wanted the Germans out.
 
This is not as remote an issue as it appears. If Russia moves forward to an invasion of eastern NATO countries, thereby starting a sort of World War III, and if that somehow remains a purely conventional conflict, well, the NATO goal can't be the total defeat of Russia, since they would attack with nukes, but it could be to sand off all the Russian bits in Europe. So Abkhazia and Ossetia would go back to Georgia, and Transnistria to Moldova or Ukraine, and Donbass and Crimea of course, and Karelia to Finland... and Germany would get East Prussia back. Most likely the Russian population would be expelled with the same level of compensation as was given to the Germans...
 
Everyone in Eastern Europe just wanted the Germans gone after World War 2. There was no goodwill left after what the Nazis had done. There was really no alternative than to move the German population of Eastern Europe to Germany and Austria.
 
ataraxia said:
The generation that lived through that war is slowly passing away- and with them is going all the hard lessons that were learned. It seems every generation wants to learn those lessons the hard way themselves.

For example, the ideas of the United Nations and human rights were born from the horrors and injustices that led to the war. But now those ideas and institutions are all under siege again. Fascism, racism, triabalism, nationalism, hawkishness, etc… are once again rising in the early 21st century in a way dangerously reminiscent of what they looked like in the early 20th century.
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Yes, the successful resurrection of fascism as 21st Century Uniquely American Fascism means it takes root big time and in big ways. The technology and wealth of American fascists will solidify it and situate it for an indefinite period of time. Perhaps as the Thousand Years of Darkness.

This American fascism seeks autocratic, economic, financial and geopolitical partnerships with other authoritarian states such as Russia and China. Europe is wealthy, advanced and powerful but with authoritarianism surrounding it, and fascist movements rejuvenated in all areas of the continent, the future of Europe continentally does not belong to democracy, liberty, equality, fraternity.

I think one major reason for the successes this 21st century uniquely American fascism is enjoying is that, between the leftist progressives and the old time rightwingers lies the ignorant mass of the population who have no clue of what fascism is. This includes the mass of MAGA ignoramuses across the land. For one thing, public education and its History curriculum does not teach WW II -- which is presented at the very end of the school year -- except that it was a just war and that nobody actually wants a WW III so and with nuclear MAD everything's fine. Not to worry. Vietnam is our friend and that's all you have to know about that.

So all that these pathetic creatures think they know is that crime is being attacked, the barbarian hoards of ruthless immigrants are being ejected and turned away, the nation's cities are targeted for a makeover and that Russia and China approve and won't do anything lethal against it because Trump is their guy and his dictatorial makeover of the once upstart America is their wet dream come true.

Throughout all this the fast failing American middle class just keeps getting up, shaking their heads and going to work. They're trying to keep their heads above water as it were until prices finally come down -- prices never come down of course -- and things settle down into the remade America currently underway. This mass of course has no clue either of the hard times that are in the process of coming down on them and that will destroy their every expectation that in the end things will work themselves out for 'em. Trump's billionaires will need to sell themselves to China mostly, to Russia and around the Middle East. All American billionaires will have to realign and on the terms of Beijing, Moscow and the ME.

The End.

Coming soon to where you are in Amerika.
 
Tangmo said:
Yes, the successful resurrection of fascism as 21st Century Uniquely American Fascism means it takes root big time and in big ways. The technology and wealth of American fascists will solidify it and situate it for an indefinite period of time. Perhaps as the Thousand Years of Darkness.
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There's at least one hole in that idea: the world as it's going doesn't get a thousand years. Especially under the Trump plan.

There's a big mystery about the motivation of these rich people. In former times, the Gilded Age, when they had trounced the economy of the common people, they started to wonder about the point of life. Some of them went the Carnegie route and tried to leave "legacies". By contrast, accumulating wealth for their family to utterly dominate the ruins of a rapidly dying Earth is a mystifying plan. Nor is Mars going to work out for them - a synthetic ecology will never hold together long without aid, and even if it did it is too small for people of their ideology. They would just become slaves of a single master.

What happened to the "enlightened self-interest" the libertarians liked to believe in?
 
bythoughts said:
There's at least one hole in that idea: the world as it's going doesn't get a thousand years. Especially under the Trump plan.

What happened to the "enlightened self-interest" the libertarians liked to believe in?
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Yes of course but I left in the "Thousand Years of Darkness" as a matter of rhetoric. I wrote it then looking at it I reminded myself that it is folly to think the world could have a thousand years left to it. What with Trump and his barbarian MAGAs and their windmills and everything else about climate and the natural resource base of human economy and civilization. So yeah, I left it in as a matter of rhetoric -- the thousand years of whatever does catch the mind, however briefly, delusionally or frighteningly.


As to libertarians, they've lost their way completely. To libertarians libertarianism means so many individual things it is anarchy and eccentric egoism. This immoral anarchy is a good word among others such as nihilism too. Post Reagan so called libertarianism has consumed itself and morphed into authoritarianism for the sake of libertarianism which is insane too, the same as Their Guy Trump is insane.

And now with AI humans have finally outsmarted themselves. I'm 81 so I'm rather relaxed about it. I lived in the best place in the best time and best conditions and circumstances of human history. Of the more than 100 billion humans who have lived on this planet Earth, my generation in the America of post WW II has had the best of it -- ever and by far. The world left to the fascists as it is occurring unstoppably, our kind will never be able to pass this way again. American liberals -- hopelessly unable to sustain themselves -- have choked it completely and as it turns out, inevitably.
 
joluoto said:
Everyone in Eastern Europe just wanted the Germans gone after World War 2. There was no goodwill left after what the Nazis had done. There was really no alternative than to move the German population of Eastern Europe to Germany and Austria.
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there must have been an alternative
 
Germany sent a lot of Russians back to Russia and they did not want to go.
 
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