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The EU and new parties on the rise in Europe[W:67]

Sez you, and only you (on this forum).
No, say 70% of French people (French poll available on demand).

France needs migrants who become workers, and the Muslims (just like their forbears who left Algeria) will learn to contribute and live peacefully in this country.
France has a 10% unemployment and certainly does not need any Muslim.

Even if France had a 0% unemployment, it would still not need Muslims. After all it would mean our economy is already great, so why islamize our country? To support stock markets?

France has a healthy fertility rate and does not need Muslims to take care of our elders. Our population would very slowly decrease, which is not a problem and certainly does not justify islamization.

Half of jobs could be destroyed within 10 or 20 years only.. No one needs Muslims, they mutilate our countries with their Islam and they will ruin them by dividing us.

You are showing a prejudice against Muslims that is neither flattering nor sensible
You are showing a prejudice in favor of Muslims that is neither flattering nor sensible.

The available data clearly show that Paris, London and Berlin will become Muslim, yet you purposely refuse to see it because of your indoctrination. Unless you want to convince yourself that a Muslim Paris would still be Paris.

You live in Paris and work with the youth, do not you? All around you are the proofs of the ongoing colonization. Yet you refuse to see it because of your pro-minority indoctrination. Or maybe because as an American you are used to living in a mixed country with its many flaws (violence, interracial disputes, self-segregation, ...), but do not understand that in France this occurred in just a few decades and it accelerates.

The only excuse you have is that you barely know them and convince yourself based on your superficial observations of a narrow sample in a biased context that they are like anyone else. But even with this hypothesis, it remains absurd to conclude that having a few tens of millions of them will change nothing.
 
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The available data clearly show that Paris, London and Berlin will become Muslim, yet you purposely refuse to see it because of your indoctrination.

You are correct that the available data shows an increase in the number of Muslims in Europe. According to that data, at the current rate of increase Muslims will form a majority in Europe in around 441 years. Of course, if you look at the UK alone, well before that 441-year horizon we'll see that non-belief or atheism will have totally outstripped the growth of any religion.

So, remind us, what data are you using to claim that Paris, London and Berlin will become Muslim much within, say half a millennium?
 
You are correct that the available data shows an increase in the number of Muslims in Europe. According to that data, at the current rate of increase Muslims will form a majority in Europe in around 441 years.
I did not say our countries would become Muslim, I said Paris, London and Berlin would.

But your personal 441 years projection, not mentioned in the article, is probably based on flawed logic and a linear growth while demographic growth is, by nature, exponential (increase is proportional to current pop), and immigration has accelerated in the recent years.

Paris: 30% of the youth around Paris (idf) is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years.
London: 18% of the youth in London is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years (x5 rate in the past thirty years).

Stop looking at national figures without taking into account age structure, urban concentration and the high growth rates. California, a state as big as France or the UK, became Latino (10% to 45%) in just forty years.
 
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I did not say our countries would become Muslim, I said Paris, London and Berlin would.

But your personal 441 years projection, not mentioned in the article, is probably based on flawed logic and a linear growth while demographic growth is, by nature, exponential (increase is proportional to current pop), and immigration has accelerated in the recent years.

Paris: 30% of the youth around Paris (idf) is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years.
London: 18% of the youth in London is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years (x5 rate in the past thirty years).

Stop looking at national figures without taking into account age structure, urban concentration and the high growth rates. California, a state as big as France or the UK, became Latino (10% to 45%) in just forty years.


"It's far easier to act as if critics of Islam have a problem with Muslims as people than it is to accept the uncomfortable truth that Islam is different."
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Strong denial, weak arguments.
 
I did not say our countries would become Muslim, I said Paris, London and Berlin would.

But your personal 441 years projection, not mentioned in the article, is probably based on flawed logic and a linear growth while demographic growth is, by nature, exponential (increase is proportional to current pop), and immigration has accelerated in the recent years.

Paris: 30% of the youth around Paris (idf) is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years.
London: 18% of the youth in London is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years (x5 rate in the past thirty years).

Stop looking at national figures without taking into account age structure, urban concentration and the high growth rates. California, a state as big as France or the UK, became Latino (10% to 45%) in just forty years.

As usual you have it right Auvergnat. It is good that both the likely participants in the French presidential run-off vote, Fillon and Le Pen, understand the dangers of Islamisation - and that it is happening fast.
 
Muzzling Critics of Islamism: France in the 21st Century

A section of the French population, born in France to parents themselves born in France, feel that they do not belong here. While many are second-generation French, some teenagers in junior-high school and high school, as well as some adults, have no hesitation in asserting that France is not their country and add that their country is Algeria, or Tunisia and so on…

People seek to hide, minimize or deny this fact. In the long history of French immigration, this failure of a third generation is unprecedented. Some historians of immigration rightly observe that there have always been problems of integration, even for immigrants from Europe.

But for the first time in our history we are seeing a process of de-integration, even de-assimilation. That is why it is not just the Republic that is being called into question, but the French nation itself.”

If Bensoussan is convicted of hate-speech on January 25, it will be a case of France shooting the messenger bearing the news of its self-destruction.
Muzzling Critics of Islamism: France in the 21st Century
Auvergnat, you are not alone, but it is clear your government is not with you.
 
It is good that both the likely participants in the French presidential run-off vote, Fillon and Le Pen, understand the dangers of Islamisation - and that it is happening fast.
Regrettably I am quite skeptical about their personal determination and, in the case of Fillon, his party's determination to fight Islam and halt immigration. For the start Islam now weighs enough on our French politics to be the decisive factor in an election and they dominate enough circumscriptions to make it difficult to seize a legislative majority against them.

Also both Fillon and Le Pen have very moderate stances and their programs do not really propose to end immigration. The closest is Fillon who proposes an unconstitutional referendum to instigate immigration quotas, quotas that would contravene the European treaties.

Even if they wanted to change anything, they would stumble on the European version of human rights that imposes familial immigration, and this text is entrenched in the French constitution and European treaties. As for deporting illegals, this has been made extremely difficult by the European return directive, and it would also take a constitutional change to bypass it (judges put European texts above the French ones).

Personally I do not expect changes from Fillon or Le Pen. Violence looks like the only solution. Or maybe direct democracy; Le Pen proposes such a direct democracy, that may be the only peaceful solution, provided it would have a direct constitutional value.
 
But your personal 441 years projection, not mentioned in the article, is probably based on flawed logic and a linear growth while demographic growth is, by nature, exponential (increase is proportional to current pop), and immigration has accelerated in the recent years.
Wrong. Population tends to follow a logistic curve, not an exponential curve i.e. an S-curve, not a J-curve.

Paris: 30% of the youth around Paris (idf) is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years.
London: 18% of the youth in London is Muslim, current doubling period of thirty years (x5 rate in the past thirty years).

Stop looking at national figures without taking into account age structure, urban concentration and the high growth rates.[/QUOTE]

You keep throwing out 'stats' while never linking to actual bona fide evidence. Where are you getting your figures? If they were genuine I'm sure you'd have presented them already.

California, a state as big as France or the UK, became Latino (10% to 45%) in just forty years.
And yet still not majoritarian Latino.
 
Wrong. Population tends to follow a logistic curve, not an exponential curve i.e. an S-curve, not a J-curve.
I did not say it was an exponential curve, I said it is an exponential growth since the increase is proportional to the population size (dN/dt = kN). But of course k(t) varies slowly with time.

Now even if Muslims were on a logistic curve they would be at the very start, when growth still accelerates, not yet where it decreases.

You keep throwing out 'stats' while never linking to actual bona fide evidence. Where are you getting your figures? If they were genuine I'm sure you'd have presented them already.
See here for the UK (and there for longer historical data). Note that you will have to compute the share of youth that is Muslim from the data provided for the two groups.

For France the sources are in French and I got warned against posting French links, but I can provide them in PM (not the 30% for Paris because it is on paper but an official report stating the 28% for Marseilles's region - Bouches-du-Rhône, our second city).

And yet still not majoritarian Latino.
Stop playing around, you very well know that it is a matter of a few years. Are you here waste our time with cheap rhetoric or to investigate political issues?
 
Now even if Muslims were on a logistic curve
They are.

they would be at the very start, when growth still accelerates, not yet where it decreases.
Where your evidence for that claim?

Note that you will have to compute the share of youth that is Muslim from the data provided for the two groups.
In other words, your stats don't show what you claim they show.

For France the sources are in French and I got warned against posting French links, but I can provide them in PM (not the 30% for Paris because it is on paper but an official report stating the 28% for Marseilles's region - Bouches-du-Rhône, our second city).
Quote the source, don't link to it. You will not get infracted for that, I can assure you. I'm not interested in Marseille, as you reminded me, the claims you made were related to London, Paris and Berlin. So far you've provided statistical evidence for none of those three cities.


Stop playing around, you very well know that it is a matter of a few years. Are you here waste our time with cheap rhetoric or to investigate political issues?
You are here throwing out unsubstantiated claims that you have so far refused to back up with evidence. When are you going to start?
 
They are.
Assumption.

Where your evidence for that claim?
French source. Slowed down in the past, started to rise again in the past years. Return directive and such.

In other words, your stats don't show what you claim they show.
They allow you to compute it using basic arithmetic available to a 9 years old. If the only knowledge you accept is the one explicitly formulated in BBC headlines, you will end up ignorant.

Quote the source, don't link to it. You will not get infracted for that, I can assure you.
No, I would have to find the book, browse the book and then translate it, and in the end it would just be the basic figure I told you. The link for Marseilles is readily available and I can send it to you straight away. This is the second city and the figures are nearly the same, this is a reasonable compromise.
 
Assumption.
It's explained in the article I linked.

French source. Slowed down in the past, started to rise again in the past years. Return directive and such.
Where? Show it, because I'm really not inclined to take you at your word.

They allow you to compute it using basic arithmetic available to a 9 years old. If the only knowledge you accept is the one explicitly formulated in BBC headlines, you will end up ignorant.
Then why can't you do it? You're the one with the burden of proof here.

No, I would have to find the book, browse the book and then translate it, and in the end it would just be the basic figure I told you. The link for Marseilles is readily available and I can send it to you straight away. This is the second city and the figures are nearly the same, this is a reasonable compromise.

Well, there we have it DPers all. Auvergnat refuses to back up anything he's arguing with any prima facie evidence. He either doesn't have any such evidence, he cannot produce it, or he has distorted or misrepresented it. Those are really the only three possible conclusions.

Claims dismissed.
 
It's explained in the article I linked.
It is nevertheless an assumption. The logistic curve is what has usually been observed in the 20th century but it is not a law of nature. The 21th century will be as different from the 20th than the 20th was from the 19th. We did not reach the end of the History, and Muslim countries and communities are not fated to replicate the west.

Where? Show it, because I'm really not inclined to take you at your word.
Search for the French wikipedia page on statistical data "Données statistiques sur l'immigration en France". 28k Africans a year in 1995, 95k a year in 2005. Plus uncounted illegals. It accelerates.

Then why can't you do it? You're the one with the burden of proof here.
I did it: I gave you the result in the message where I provided the link. I simply mentioned that it was not written directly, that it was inferred from the data provided there.

Auvergnat refuses to back up anything he's arguing with any prima facie evidence.
I backed up everything but this, because I do not want to waste 30 mins for something that you will then dismiss in 3s for one pretense or another.
 
It is nevertheless an assumption. The logistic curve is what has usually been observed in the 20th century but it is not a law of nature. The 21th century will be as different from the 20th than the 20th was from the 19th. We did not reach the end of the History, and Muslim countries and communities are not fated to replicate the west.


Search for the French wikipedia page on statistical data "Données statistiques sur l'immigration en France". 28k Africans a year in 1995, 95k a year in 2005. Plus uncounted illegals. It accelerates.


I did it: I gave you the result in the message where I provided the link. I simply mentioned that it was not written directly, that it was inferred from the data provided there.


I backed up everything but this, because I do not want to waste 30 mins for something that you will then dismiss in 3s for one pretense or another.

I think he will have to be sharing his bathroom with a refugee family before he stops denying the serious problem.
 
Where your evidence for that claim? In other words, your stats don't show what you claim they show.

About the Muslims in France (and from WikiP):
Islam is the second-most widely professed religion in France behind Catholic Christianity by number of worshippers. With an estimated total of 5 to 10 percent of the national population, France has the largest number of Muslims in Western Europe.

The majority of Muslims in France belong to the Sunni denomination. The vast majority of French Muslims are of immigrant origin, while an estimated 100,000 are converts to Islam of indigenous ethnic French background.

Five to ten percent of the French population is anywhere from 3 to 6 million muslims in France, most having come over from Algeria where (as a colony) they had fought alongside the French a revolution for independence that ended in 1962. Of course, they were persona non grata upon arrival and many settled in encampments in the south of France, not far from where they landed.

Today, they are fairly well assimilated. Meaning the older generation is dying-off, and the younger ones assimilating themselves fully into the French way-of-life. They happen to have, however, a higher incidence of unemployment, which radicalizes some.

The handful of militant Muslims that have made headlines (by killing both soldiers and French Jews) have all been killed themselves or captured.

Unless one has a bee-in-their-bonnet about Muslims, they are very much a practical people. Just trying to find a place to practice their religion, amidst all the majesty of French cathedrals across the land. They should be allowed their Sunni Mosques. The French Buddhists have their own temples, so why not the Muslim?

I have done business with many and find them very practical, in fact they are often far more friendly/amenable than the Christian French themselves. Never ever once has the subject of religion arisen ...
 
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Of course, they were persona non grata upon arrival and many settled in encampments in the south of France, not far from where they landed.
We didn't have tens to hundreds of thousands of free houses either, especially in the midst of the urbanization.

Today, they are fairly well assimilated.
AHAHAHAHAHAH.

They were on their way to assimilation in the 90's, now we are more and more divided every year and we are heading towards a century of conflicts, ethnic cleansings and self-segregation. This will probably end up with the extermination of one of us.

Meaning the older generation is dying-off, and the younger ones assimilating themselves fully into the French way-of-life. They happen to have, however, a higher incidence of unemployment, which radicalizes some.
Bull****, half of Muslims are islamists and the majority hate us, just like they hate Jews, gays, and everyone else, including other Muslims. They have been taught to hate us, they teach their children to hate us.

All Muslim countries are plagued by Islamism and jihadism, all around the world, everywhere on three continents. Stop finding excuses or blaming France.

The handful of militant Muslims that have made headlines (by killing both soldiers and French Jews) have all been killed themselves or captured.
The handful? Hundreds arrested, 90 Mosques closed, one or two terrorist action prevented every week, and we only hear about the top of the iceberg.

Beyond that, once or twice a week we have a "disturbed man" who kill some people. Always a Muslim of course, always targeting non-Muslims. But he is just "disturbed", not "terrorist". And there are the rapes, where Muslims are over-represented and frequently target non-Muslim women.

And all of that is the least of our problems with Islam. Paris will be Muslim before the end of this century, THAT is the true problem, the suicide of the French culture and of our stability and peace.

They should be allowed their Sunni Mosques.
There are 2500 Mosques already and a third of the corresponding money comes from illegal subsides by corrupted mayors. Our traitorous socialist government tried during the summer to instigate a tax to fund Mosques while during the month of December they organized a way to help Morocco, Algeria and Saudi arabia to teach imams in our universities!

And you pity those poor Muslims?! Screw that, the Koran is no better than mein Kampf, let's burn their mosques. France is not a Muslim country, there is no room for this retrograde religion. The more Islam we will have, the more violent the civil wars will be. We have doomed ourselves with Islam.

Lafayette, as always you know nothing about France. Stop encouraging us to turn Paris into a new Beyrouth/Detroit/Ramallah or whatever it will turn out to be.
 
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Lafayette, as always you know nothing about France. Stop encouraging us to turn Paris into a new Beyrouth/Detroit/Ramallah or whatever it will turn out to be.

Je la connais mieux que vous!

(I know it better than you!)
 
How long have you been here? One year? How many places have you lived at? One?

I've lived/worked in five different countries in Europe, and am retired in France ...
 
I've lived/worked in five different countries in Europe, and am retired in France ...

I'm hanging over here, and France is a mess from what I see. You have a serious problem only one of you sees, along with the rest of the world.
 
I'm hanging over here, and France is a mess from what I see. You have a serious problem only one of you sees, along with the rest of the world.

France is a mess, is it. How so?

The cost of healthcare is half what you pay in the US with a lifespan that is three years longer:
HC - Average costs versus Life Span.webp

The cost of a Tertiary Education in France is practically nothing (about $1K plus room-'n-board) compared to an average debt of around $30K for a postsecondary degree in the US:
Education - Average Tuition Fees 2011.webp

So, let's see your numbers!

Yes, France has high unemployment. But so does the rest of Europe and mostly due to Uncle Sam's "gift" of the Toxic Waste Mess ...
 
France is a mess, is it. How so?

The cost of healthcare is half what you pay in the US with a lifespan that is three years longer:
View attachment 67212099

The cost of a Tertiary Education in France is practically nothing (about $1K plus room-'n-board) compared to an average debt of around $30K for a postsecondary degree in the US:
View attachment 67212100

So, let's see your numbers!

Yes, France has high unemployment. But so does the rest of Europe and mostly due to Uncle Sam's "gift" of the Toxic Waste Mess ...

Where is your chart on terror victims?
 
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