The Death of Nuance

[NWRatCon]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader. My professional life was lived in the milieu of nuance. In each of my fields of endeavor - journalism, medicine, education, military, and law (yeah, a busy life) - understanding complexity and navigating nuance has been essential to success.

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

To give examples from each of those fields, just to get a discussion started, I provide the following:

1) The reduction of two-paper towns results in a dearth of local reporting, and the loss of contrary voices, where nuance lived. Cable coverage tends to the black or white, rather than discussion of the intracacies of a situation.

2) The ability to understand the issues regarding vaccination has been subsumed with a political dimension that is simply nonsensical. Vaccines are neither a panacea nor irrelevant (or dangerous), yet people seem not to want to know how they work.

3) So many discussions of history, for example, are derailed by forces that want a particularized and, again, political, answer, rather than an exploration of the intricacies of how different threads interplay in the course of events that have already happened. And in other education-related subjects, any injection of nuance is shut down by zealots of one stripe or another.

4) Surprisingly, even when the equities of a situation are obvious - such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or Hamas's attack on Israel - forces of extremism and denial will try to disrupt any nuanced discussion of the issue.

5) And, try to have any discussion about the various Trump travails or cases involving 1/6...

 

[mrjurrs]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader. My professional life was lived in the milieu of nuance. In each of my fields of endeavor - journalism, medicine, education, military, and law (yeah, a busy life) - understanding complexity and navigating nuance has been essential to success.

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

To give examples from each of those fields, just to get a discussion started, I provide the following:

1) The reduction of two-paper towns results in a dearth of local reporting, and the loss of contrary voices, where nuance lived. Cable coverage tends to the black or white, rather than discussion of the intracacies of a situation.

2) The ability to understand the issues regarding vaccination has been subsumed with a political dimension that is simply nonsensical. Vaccines are neither a panacea nor irrelevant (or dangerous), yet people seem not to want to know how they work.

3) So many discussions of history, for example, are derailed by forces that want a particularized and, again, political, answer, rather than an exploration of the intricacies of how different threads interplay in the course of events that have already happened. And in other education-related subjects, any injection of nuance is shut down by zealots of one stripe or another.

4) Surprisingly, even when the equities of a situation are obvious - such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or Hamas's attack on Israel - forces of extremism and denial will try to disrupt any nuanced discussion of the issue.

5) And, try to have any discussion about the various Trump travails or cases involving 1/6...

I think the recent 'Trump lovers believe him but don't take his words literally, while P01135809 haters are sure he's lying but do take his words literally.'

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

As someone who was born after the internet became widespread, I do think it carries most of the blame.

As hard as it is to believe, forums like this are basically as good as it gets for nuanced discussions about politics, religion, or science held in the public sphere. Sure, in academic, journalistic, professional political or friend/family/interpersonal circles you will get a much quality discussion. But as far as open, public discussion?

Twitter - horrific cesspit
Facebook - hahahaha
YouTube - maybe the your best bet. Decently ok culture of long format videos, but the algorithm rewards lower effort videos.
Cable News - has mostly fallen into ragebait content, with the exception of PBS

And those sources where most people will get their medical/political/philosophical/historical opinions from, as well as current events.

Scroll twitter, throw on some cable news, and check your Youtube frontpage and it becomes pretty obvious how nuance died.

 

[bongsaway]

I think the recent 'Trump lovers believe him but don't take his words literally, while P01135809 haters are sure he's lying but do take his words literally.'

Trump is a blowhard but if you don't take his words seriously, you are foolish.

 

[Lutherf]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader. My professional life was lived in the milieu of nuance. In each of my fields of endeavor - journalism, medicine, education, military, and law (yeah, a busy life) - understanding complexity and navigating nuance has been essential to success.

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

To give examples from each of those fields, just to get a discussion started, I provide the following:

1) The reduction of two-paper towns results in a dearth of local reporting, and the loss of contrary voices, where nuance lived. Cable coverage tends to the black or white, rather than discussion of the intracacies of a situation.

2) The ability to understand the issues regarding vaccination has been subsumed with a political dimension that is simply nonsensical. Vaccines are neither a panacea nor irrelevant (or dangerous), yet people seem not to want to know how they work.

3) So many discussions of history, for example, are derailed by forces that want a particularized and, again, political, answer, rather than an exploration of the intricacies of how different threads interplay in the course of events that have already happened. And in other education-related subjects, any injection of nuance is shut down by zealots of one stripe or another.

4) Surprisingly, even when the equities of a situation are obvious - such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or Hamas's attack on Israel - forces of extremism and denial will try to disrupt any nuanced discussion of the issue.

5) And, try to have any discussion about the various Trump travails or cases involving 1/6...

There is, this day in age, a propensity for commenters on any given topic to treat such commentary as ONLY a binary function. A proffered opinion is treated as either "right" or "wrong" and quite often the ONLY factor given consideration as to which is which is the political benefit the commenter is seeking. I used to think that was just a function of this being a political focused discussion forum and, as such, the political aspects of any discussion were naturally going to have a more significant play than any other factor but, over the past 15 years or so, have seen the politics bleed out into main stream media more and more.

 

[BirdinHand]

I remember having the luxury of sitting down at dinner and having dinner with at least one of my parents nightly and watching the news together, discussing it, etc…and having my parents challenge perspectives, opinions, etc. not only of each other, but opinions held by my brother and I.

My high school and college classrooms were filled with lively debate - from all sides - with teachers and professors often acting as mediators and even instigators of debate and discussions.

And I had pen pals. International as well as within the US from places I’d never see. I remember laboriously pouring over my Spanish-English dictionary to write to my Spanish pen pal, in 6th grade.

In all those scenarios - you learned how to debate face to face, discuss face to face….or at minimum with your name attached. To choose your words, to “read” the room…and importantly, you delivered your words TO a person - or at minimum with your name attached. And you learn that there’s a LOT more grey within any topic than there is black/white.

Those face to face, back and forth conversations, in my opinion, led to more nuance. More in depth discussions. More appreciation for different points of view and experience.

I remember at University, many of us would go to the pub, etc to sit and talk and debate. People from all over the world. It was what we did for FUN. (What nerds we were …but what do you expect of history, politics, international studies, etc majors)

24/7 “news” programs, where broadcasting is paid for via advertising dollars…is a problem. It has diluted the quality of information available to inform individuals.

Education that is graded on standardized test scores and geared towards job markets…also has diluted nuance. Standardized testing looks for exact answers - not nuance.

I think the internet and the anonymity that comes with the internet has changed debate - and has led to the death of nuance.

Entire generations have grown up delivering opinions on screens vs. in person. After being taught to take standardized tests and view “education” as a means to an end (job) vs. education for the sake of knowledge.

And the internet has glamorized “likes” and “things” and “wealth” or “beauty” instead of intelligence, thoughtfulness, varied perspectives.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I’ve actually been thinking about this topic somewhat today and I have come to the conclusion that our current society focuses on trauma and grievance to the point where much of our population is reacting defensively to political situations instead of thinking about the greater good.

People reacting out of emotional pain doesn’t fully explain today’s politics, but it explains a lot of it, especially the extremes of either party in many cases.


Per the comment by @Lutherf, I think the typical response of “what benefits me” is born of that and the type of scarcity mentality it breeds. Ultimately this leaves people vulnerable to influencer/politician types and being deceived by constant lies.

I am not sure if I am fully articulating my thoughts well here and am still, admittedly, working out whether this is a genuine insight or if I am off the deep end, but it just seems so many people are hurt and want to hurt others right now.

Nuance gets lost in that mentality.

I guess for me, I feel lead by the Holy Spirit to see all of the pain that is being played out in the political arenas. Whether that is US politics, how many churches have begun to behave, how people drive even.

The question is how we begin healing and growing again.

 

[Lutherf]

I remember having the luxury of sitting down at dinner and having dinner with at least one of my parents nightly and watching the news together, discussing it, etc…and having my parents challenge perspectives, opinions, etc. not only of each other, but opinions held by my brother and I.

My high school and college classrooms were filled with lively debate - from all sides - with teachers and professors often acting as mediators and even instigators of debate and discussions.

And I had pen pals. International as well as within the US from places I’d never see. I remember laboriously pouring over my Spanish-English dictionary to write to my Spanish pen pal, in 6th grade.

In all those scenarios - you learned how to debate face to face, discuss face to face….or at minimum with your name attached. To choose your words, to “read” the room…and importantly, you delivered your words TO a person - or at minimum with your name attached. And you learn that there’s a LOT more grey within any topic than there is black/white.

Those face to face, back and forth conversations, in my opinion, led to more nuance. More in depth discussions. More appreciation for different points of view and experience.

I remember at University, many of us would go to the pub, etc to sit and talk and debate. People from all over the world. It was what we did for FUN. (What nerds we were …but what do you expect of history, politics, international studies, etc majors)

24/7 “news” programs, where broadcasting is paid for via advertising dollars…is a problem. It has diluted the quality of information available to inform individuals.

Education that is graded on standardized test scores and geared towards job markets…also has diluted nuance. Standardized testing looks for exact answers - not nuance.

I think the internet and the anonymity that comes with the internet has changed debate - and has led to the death of nuance.

Entire generations have grown up delivering opinions on screens vs. in person. After being taught to take standardized tests and view “education” as a means to an end (job) vs. education for the sake of knowledge.

And the internet has glamorized “likes” and “things” and “wealth” or “beauty” instead of intelligence, thoughtfulness, varied perspectives.

There was a book that came out in the 80s by a guy called Allen Bloom that addressed a lot of what you mentioned. "The Closing of the American Mind" was the title and, while social media and 24/7 news were not major factors back then, Bloom kind of nailed the direction we were heading.

People generally want to get the answer "right" instead of to know WHY it's right. The result becomes the benefit rather than the pursuit being the benefit.

 

[lwf]

I’ve actually been thinking about this topic somewhat today and I have come to the conclusion that our current society focuses on trauma and grievance to the point where much of our population is reacting defensively to political situations instead of thinking about the greater good.

People reacting out of emotional pain doesn’t fully explain today’s politics, but it explains a lot of it, especially the extremes of either party in many cases.


Per the comment by @Lutherf, I think the typical response of “what benefits me” is born of that and the type of scarcity mentality it breeds. Ultimately this leaves people vulnerable to influencer/politician types and being deceived by constant lies.

I am not sure if I am fully articulating my thoughts well here and am still, admittedly, working out whether this is a genuine insight or if I am off the deep end, but it just seems so many people are hurt and want to hurt others right now.

Nuance gets lost in that mentality.

It doesn't help that for-profit news profits from trauma and grievance. Therefore, that is what is covered, and the collection together and repetition of painful and enraging stories of trauma and grievance can easily cause them to be taken badly out of context and take on an enormous degree of importance in the mind of the viewer.

I often use the analogy of fly paper. If all you focus on all day long is the number of flies collecting on the fly paper, it becomes easier and easier to believe that your house is covered in flies. And some people are willing to profit off that belief at the expense of those who believe it, and therefore participate in propagating it.

 

[samiam5211]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader. My professional life was lived in the milieu of nuance. In each of my fields of endeavor - journalism, medicine, education, military, and law (yeah, a busy life) - understanding complexity and navigating nuance has been essential to success.

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

To give examples from each of those fields, just to get a discussion started, I provide the following:

1) The reduction of two-paper towns results in a dearth of local reporting, and the loss of contrary voices, where nuance lived. Cable coverage tends to the black or white, rather than discussion of the intracacies of a situation.

2) The ability to understand the issues regarding vaccination has been subsumed with a political dimension that is simply nonsensical. Vaccines are neither a panacea nor irrelevant (or dangerous), yet people seem not to want to know how they work.

3) So many discussions of history, for example, are derailed by forces that want a particularized and, again, political, answer, rather than an exploration of the intricacies of how different threads interplay in the course of events that have already happened. And in other education-related subjects, any injection of nuance is shut down by zealots of one stripe or another.

4) Surprisingly, even when the equities of a situation are obvious - such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or Hamas's attack on Israel - forces of extremism and denial will try to disrupt any nuanced discussion of the issue.

5) And, try to have any discussion about the various Trump travails or cases involving 1/6...

Being against Israels killing of civilians in Gaza has made me feel like an antivaxxer in 2021. I'm sorry to you guys, i think you're crazy, but i shouldn't have treated you like the devil.

The situiation in Gaza isn't the Hamas attack. it is Israel's response. Pretty much everyone is against the Hamas attack on civilians. The people who cheer Hamas in the west aren't enough to even deserve attention.

I am against the Hamas attack, and against Israel's 2 week bombing and blockade of Gaza.

 

[BirdinHand]

There was a book that came out in the 80s by a guy called Allen Bloom that addressed a lot of what you mentioned. "The Closing of the American Mind" was the title and, while social media and 24/7 news were not major factors back then, Bloom kind of nailed the direction we were heading.

People generally want to get the answer "right" instead of to knew WHY it's right. The result becomes the benefit rather than the pursuit being the benefit.

I will check out that book. Don’t know as I’ve read it.

As I think about it - I wonder if the pace of American life contributes.

Nuance isn’t “fast”. It’s complex. It takes time. It’s almost a luxury to look at things from different perspectives and listen to differing points of view.

 

[BirdinHand]

Being against Israels killing of civilians in Gaza has made me feel like an antivaxxer in 2021. I'm sorry to you guys, i think you're crazy, but i shouldn't have treated you like the devil.

The situiation in Gaza isn't the Hamas attack. it is Israel's response. Pretty much everyone is against the Hamas attack on civilians. The people who cheer Hamas in the west aren't enough to even deserve attention.

I am against the Hamas attack, and against Israel's 2 week bombing and blockade of Gaza.

But even that particular situation is SO much more complex and nuanced than just October 2023.

You’ve got well over 100 years of history and geopolitical players contributing….just in modern history.

It is not nearly as simple and neat as Hamas and Israel’s response to attacks in October.

 

[BirdinHand]

I saw an “influencer” yesterday on TikTok.

A woman that usually is in the “lane” of cosmetics and fashion.

And while doing her makeup, was giving HER perspective on Israel’s response to Hamas attacks.

The comments amazed me.

Here were people, gobbling up every word this perhaps 20 year old said…because they followed her for makeup/fashion.

Most of what she was saying was obviously gleaned from what she likely heard from OTHER influencers.

That’s another thing that amazes me when it comes to this day and age. People that have very little (if any) knowledge on subjects are able to have MASSIVE platforms simply because of social media.

And this woman, in responding to comments, was getting agitated by anyone that challenged her POV.

“It’s MY page…move along if you don’t like what I say” type mentality. No ability to be challenged. No giving thought to what others were saying - a “this is my sandbox, don’t question me” stance.

It’s definitely something I’ve been discussing with my son as he’s getting better at reading and utilizing some social media/online activities.

 

[EdwinWillers]

I remember having the luxury of sitting down at dinner and having dinner with at least one of my parents nightly and watching the news together, discussing it, etc…and having my parents challenge perspectives, opinions, etc. not only of each other, but opinions held by my brother and I.

My high school and college classrooms were filled with lively debate - from all sides - with teachers and professors often acting as mediators and even instigators of debate and discussions.

And I had pen pals. International as well as within the US from places I’d never see. I remember laboriously pouring over my Spanish-English dictionary to write to my Spanish pen pal, in 6th grade.

In all those scenarios - you learned how to debate face to face, discuss face to face….or at minimum with your name attached. To choose your words, to “read” the room…and importantly, you delivered your words TO a person - or at minimum with your name attached. And you learn that there’s a LOT more grey within any topic than there is black/white.

Those face to face, back and forth conversations, in my opinion, led to more nuance. More in depth discussions. More appreciation for different points of view and experience.

I remember at University, many of us would go to the pub, etc to sit and talk and debate. People from all over the world. It was what we did for FUN. (What nerds we were …but what do you expect of history, politics, international studies, etc majors)

24/7 “news” programs, where broadcasting is paid for via advertising dollars…is a problem. It has diluted the quality of information available to inform individuals.

Education that is graded on standardized test scores and geared towards job markets…also has diluted nuance. Standardized testing looks for exact answers - not nuance.

I think the internet and the anonymity that comes with the internet has changed debate - and has led to the death of nuance.

Entire generations have grown up delivering opinions on screens vs. in person. After being taught to take standardized tests and view “education” as a means to an end (job) vs. education for the sake of knowledge.

And the internet has glamorized “likes” and “things” and “wealth” or “beauty” instead of intelligence, thoughtfulness, varied perspectives.

Excellent post. Thank you.

 

[justabubba]

alan dershowitz offers a current take on this topic:
https://www.newsweek.com/wheres-all-nuance-gone-political-discourse-everything-else-opinion-1778313

We are experiencing the death of nuanced discourse in many parts of the world today. Instead, we see black or white debate between two sides, each insisting that they are right and the other wrong in every respect. Neither side is willing to give intellectual quarter to the other or even to listen to their counterarguments. Unconditional surrender is demanded. Compromise is unthinkable in this war of ideologies.

Gone are days when friends could disagree and yet respect each other's views. Today, long-term friendships end over an unwillingness to acknowledge that there may be two sides to a divisive issue. Counterarguments are not answered by facts or logic but by ad hominem insults.

... The great American jurist Learned Hand correctly observed that the spirit of liberty is "the spirit which is not too sure that it is right." Certainty and intolerance of opposing views are the hallmarks of intellectual tyranny that easily morph into political tyranny. If one is certain of the absolute correctness of his views, he often sees no need for the right to dissent or the need for due process.

... The road to political hell is indeed paved with certainty that one's intentions are good. Or as the great Justice Louis Brandeis taught us a century ago, "the greatest dangers to Liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal but without understanding." ...

 

[btthegreat]

I don't know how many times I have used the words 'nuance' or' 'nuanced' in my posts in the last year. I keep telling posters I am capable of nuanced thinking to distinguish me or my content/beliefs from someone else's. Its not something to be remotely proud of, because we are all supposedly taught from the time we hit middle school to learn to think in terms of shades of gray as well as other colors. You simply cannot run a democracy, if its citizenry see every issue, every candidate in stark contrasting terms. We have to have doubts about what we believe, a sense that we do not already know everything, and that what we do not yet know - might yet turn our vision of truth a slightly different shade than it is right now. But if we t refuse to look for something more to learn that keeps our blacks pitch, and our white blindingly bright.... If we refuse to gain some depth and nuance, because we simply cannot handle the idea of self doubt, then we are doomed to stagnate.

End of pontification. This is a great thread.

 

[Cordelier]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader. My professional life was lived in the milieu of nuance. In each of my fields of endeavor - journalism, medicine, education, military, and law (yeah, a busy life) - understanding complexity and navigating nuance has been essential to success.

I have noted a significant deterioration in the ability to address nuance in all of these fields, and in just general discussions.

To give examples from each of those fields, just to get a discussion started, I provide the following:

1) The reduction of two-paper towns results in a dearth of local reporting, and the loss of contrary voices, where nuance lived. Cable coverage tends to the black or white, rather than discussion of the intracacies of a situation.

2) The ability to understand the issues regarding vaccination has been subsumed with a political dimension that is simply nonsensical. Vaccines are neither a panacea nor irrelevant (or dangerous), yet people seem not to want to know how they work.

3) So many discussions of history, for example, are derailed by forces that want a particularized and, again, political, answer, rather than an exploration of the intricacies of how different threads interplay in the course of events that have already happened. And in other education-related subjects, any injection of nuance is shut down by zealots of one stripe or another.

4) Surprisingly, even when the equities of a situation are obvious - such as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, or Hamas's attack on Israel - forces of extremism and denial will try to disrupt any nuanced discussion of the issue.

5) And, try to have any discussion about the various Trump travails or cases involving 1/6...

Nuance takes work - you have to go out and actively seek the required level of knowledge to perceive it. Most people would rather be spoon-fed.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Trump is a blowhard but if you don't take his words seriously, you are foolish.

Blowhard or not, you are a fool to take any politician's serious.

 

[bongsaway]

Blowhard or not, you are a fool to take any politician's serious.

The folks on the right take trump seriously.

 

[NWRatCon]

Nuance takes work - you have to go out and actively seek the required level of knowledge to perceive it. Most people would rather be spoon-fed.

As someone who was born after the internet became widespread, I do think it carries most of the blame.

I think education - or lack thereof - also has a hand. There are a couple of trends that you've both identified. People are inherently lazy, and it's not that ignorance is a new thing, or division, either, but social developments over the last century have exacerbated existing conditions.

I never know if my childhood was exceptional, but my parents encouraged us to find things out for ourselves. We kept encyclopedias at home, and regularly went to the library. My parents had strongly different views, but were respectful of each other's. We got both local papers and watched each of the newscasts.

At school, too, we were given tools to sort things out - and my schools were public and not particularly advanced. Debate was encouraged, as was skepticism.

Before there was "the big three", lots of independent local stations, and the "fairness doctrine". They vied for "the mainstream" audience, and followed journalism rules. Most major cities had competing papers, but they hewed to the center. Now cities are lucky to have one paper, and people choose their newscasts based upon predictable fare. Media behemoths like Sinclair and Fox dictate content to "affiliates".

But, things have definitely changed. Cable channels started the siloing process, I think - particularly the advent of Fox's unabashed slant - with an emphasis on sensationalism and shallow reporting (CNN's "Headline News"). The internet, I would agree, extended that trend, and so did media consolidation. At the same time, media became more fragmented, with sharper ideology. Major outlets disappeared.

The internet bred a whole generation of "independent" (read: untrained) "journalists" who don't follow any particular guidelines or code of ethics, each with their own channels. They have "followers" not an audience. And politics has also become more niche, especially with extreme gerrymandering,. Holding mainstream views and compromise is a liability. Biden seems to be the last of the Old Guard.

 

[Visbek]

Although there is a significant political dimension to this topic, I intend the discussion to be broader....

At the risk of being blunt... When was this Golden Age of nuanced political discussion?

 

[Lord of Planar]

The folks on the right take trump seriously.

Why do you think that? Is it because the media showcases it?

 

[bongsaway]

Why do you think that? Is it because the media showcases it?

Maybe because I watched the events of 1/6 unfold on television live? Trump and his supporters ooze hatred.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Maybe because I watched the events of 1/6 unfold on television live? Trump and his supporters ooze hatred.

Showcased by the media....

 

[bongsaway]

Showcased by the media....

You guys have an unbelievable ability to deny reality. That bad old media, having the audacity to point the cameras at the people 'enjoying' themselves smashing their way into the capitol.