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The Dark Side of WW2's "Greatest Generation."

Germans have been trying to shake off the Nazi stigma since June of 1945.

I don't have the time to reiterate the complex story of how Germany has been dealing with the crimes of the nazi era since 1945 now. To keep it short, your initial statement about Germans jumping onto anything anyone else did to say it was as bad as the holocaust is completely baseless at least since the late 1960s. I understand that your characterization was helpful as a part of an "Americans are good and others are bad" message, but please inform yourself and stick to the facts.

I haven't sanitized anything.

I meant saying that war crimes committed by US troops were never part of an official policy. And this is certainly sanitization of history:

I don't need to Google Rheinwiesenlager. What I will say, is that they were all Nazis and if a few of them starved to death, then they earned it.

And that was an official policy, which refutes your former claim that war crimes were only committed by "bad apples". It was an official American policy to put fences around patches of farmland or meadows, put thousands of POWs in, provide no tents or other shelters for 5 months, take away their tarpaulins and warm coats, provide far too little food while forbidding people from nearby villages to give food to the prisoners, and not allowing the red cross to see those conditions which the American forces had deliberately created and aggravated.

For your information, any male person of suitable age was drafted into the German military in WW2, and deserters and conscientious objectors were killed. The only thing the soldiers all had in common was that they were German men. There were nazis, non-nazis, good people, bad people, it was everyone. Now I understand that you have the wish to sanitize your country's history by saying that the people who were deliberately starved to death by the American forces in Germany were all nazis, criminals and evil scum that deserved to die. That level of patriotism is truly disgusting.

"War is horrible. The more horrible it is, the shorter it will be" --General William T. Sherman

Please read the quote by Anderson again. You have apparently not understood it.
 
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I wouldn't segregate US behaviour to any of the other powers behaviour in the war.

The Germans committed mass genocide,The Japanese committed mass genocide,The Russians committed rapes as vengeance against Germans in Berlin.

War is evil, Occupation is evil, Imperialism is evil, it's what such policies create.

I completely disagree. Failing to partition the crimes of the Third Reich or Imperial Japan means that you dilute their significance. All crimes are not the same, this is an established precedent in the law and more importantly of history.
 
Nothing new there. Allied soldiers committed many war crimes during WW2 and were in many ways no better than the Axis powers. It was war after all.

There has been rumors for decades that certain American wealthy families that became wealthy after WW2, did so because a family member looted his way across Europe during WW2.

A classic movie on the subject is Kelly's Heros with Clint Eastwood and Telly Savalas.. not based on real events, but based on the reality of war.

This is the kind of relativistic lunacy that gives right wing fanatics ammunition with the public.
 
This is the kind of relativistic lunacy that gives right wing fanatics ammunition with the public.

Yea the truth hurts.

But the fact is the allies executed German POWs during at random times during the whole war. There are many hush hush reports about mass executions during the D-Day landings.

Sure the allies did not starve their POWs or have concentration camps, but carpet bombing civilians with fire bombs and so on aint exactly nice either..
 
Yea the truth hurts.

But the fact is the allies executed German POWs during at random times during the whole war. There are many hush hush reports about mass executions during the D-Day landings.

Sure the allies did not starve their POWs or have concentration camps, but carpet bombing civilians with fire bombs and so on aint exactly nice either..

The execution of German POW's was rare and on an incidental rather than systematic basis, the condition of German POW's was a direct result of the inability to simultaneously care for 2,000,000+ demobilized German soldiers and millions of European civilians, and the strategic bombing campaign was both seen as a legitimate tactic for the time period and had utility in Allied efforts to accelerate the end of the war.

No one is denying that excesses, transgressions, and outright crimes were committed by the Allies during the war. What is unacceptable is to make broad comparisons between the Dachau camp massacre or the bombing of Hamburg and Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Which is precisely what you are doing if you claim the Allies were in many ways no better than the Axis.

In point of fact in every conceivable way and by nearly every metric the Western powers were infinitely better than their Axis counterparts.
 
The execution of German POW's was rare and on an incidental rather than systematic basis,

As was the German execution of POWs... just saying. In fact the best known execution of POWs that the German's was accused off, was actually done by the Allies.

the condition of German POW's was a direct result of the inability to simultaneously care for 2,000,000+ demobilized German soldiers and millions of European civilians,

Same argument could be made for the treatment of allied POWs by the Germans. But saying that, the Russians got their payback on the Germans by killing off most of their German POWs over time..

and the strategic bombing campaign was both seen as a legitimate tactic for the time period and had utility in Allied efforts to accelerate the end of the war.

It was still mass murder of civilians. When 40k+ people die in one night of fire bombing of civilian areas, then you go from "tactics" to mass murder... there was no excuse for this .. non, especially when we come after the fact and try to act all holy and righteous because of the whole holocaust thing.

No one is denying that excesses, transgressions, and outright crimes were committed by the Allies during the war.

Err you are by trying to explain them away by saying that they were not as bad as the Germans.. yes they were. One executed POW is one too many. One civilian killed in retribution is one too many... especially if you are trying to be the good guy in a war.

What is unacceptable is to make broad comparisons between the Dachau camp massacre or the bombing of Hamburg and Babi Yar and the Holocaust.

Where the hell have I done that? Have I even mentioned the holocaust?

Which is precisely what you are doing if you claim the Allies were in many ways no better than the Axis.

The hell I am. I am pointing out that the Allies did many (not all, but many) of the things we accuse the Axis off. We accuse the Axis of mass executions of allied troops and civilians.. well the Allies did the same thing. We accuse the Axis of stealing cultural artifacts across Europe, and yet we know that the allies did exactly the same thing across Europe while they were "liberating" it.

In point of fact in every conceivable way and by nearly every metric the Western powers were infinitely better than their Axis counterparts.

Most maybe, but far from all. Quite a few tend to be a "draw", and that is especially when talking about looting and raping across Europe.
 
As was the German execution of POWs... just saying. In fact the best known execution of POWs that the German's was accused off, was actually done by the Allies.

The German execution of POW's was systematic and widespread, it involved the organized massacred of millions of Polish, Soviet, Italian, American, British, French, Norwegian, etc POW's. That most of the victims were Slavs, Poles, and Italians does not diminish their atrocities. Moreover it should be clear that when referring to the Allies and war crimes few include the Soviet Union which beyond Katyn was obviously a purveyor of atrocities.


It was still mass murder of civilians. When 40k+ people die in one night of fire bombing of civilian areas, then you go from "tactics" to mass murder... there was no excuse for this .. non, especially when we come after the fact and try to act all holy and righteous because of the whole holocaust thing.

There is a fantastic and fundamental difference between the bombardment of a city for the purposes of a war aim, even if that aim is the strategic reduction of the city, and carting those people off into the woods with the deliberate intent of killing every single last one of them. The Holocaust, the butchery in Russia, the annihilation of Polish, Czech, Greek, Hungarian communities, and so much more is incomparable to the Allied strategic bombing campaign.

You also have a peculiar inability to distinguish between the objectives of the Axis and the Allied powers. The entire reason people give the US and the UK a lenient pass on the German strategic bombing campaign is because the Allies were battling to roll back totalitarian and genocidal fascism from the continent. Every day the regime existed was a crime against the millions suffering under their yolk.

Err you are by trying to explain them away by saying that they were not as bad as the Germans.. yes they were. One executed POW is one too many. One civilian killed in retribution is one too many... especially if you are trying to be the good guy in a war.

You must be trolling. The shooting of a POW at Dachau by America troops, does not equate to the mountain of atrocities committed by the Third Reich.

The hell I am. I am pointing out that the Allies did many (not all, but many) of the things we accuse the Axis off. We accuse the Axis of mass executions of allied troops and civilians.. well the Allies did the same thing. We accuse the Axis of stealing cultural artifacts across Europe, and yet we know that the allies did exactly the same thing across Europe while they were "liberating" it.

No the Allies did not. This is factually untrue. The Allies (the Western Powers) did not engage in the mass execution of Nazi, Italian, or Japanese POW's. The Allies did not engage in the mass looting of art and cultural artifacts. The Allies did not engage in the mass slaughter of entire communities with the purpose of extinguishing entire peoples from the continent. These things did not happen.

This is relativism gone wild and it is why liberalism has been so unfortunately but savagely maligned. This is lunacy.

Most maybe, but far from all. Quite a few tend to be a "draw", and that is especially when talking about looting and raping across Europe.

No. No one thinks that except for Nazi sympathizers and simpletons. You spit on the graves of untold millions when you make that comparison. It is despicable.
 
I completely disagree. Failing to partition the crimes of the Third Reich or Imperial Japan means that you dilute their significance. All crimes are not the same, this is an established precedent in the law and more importantly of history.

This is the problem when you jump into a debate between two other people and take a comment out of its original intended context.
 
This is the problem when you jump into a debate between two other people and take a comment out of its original intended context.

Feel free to explain if I took something out of context, it didn't look like it to me.
 
The German execution of POW's was systematic and widespread, it involved the organized massacred of millions of Polish, Soviet, Italian, American, British, French, Norwegian, etc POW's.

Err and you base this on what exactly?

That most of the victims were Slavs, Poles, and Italians does not diminish their atrocities.

Now wait a minute...First you say they killed millions of Polish, Soviet, Italian, American, British, French and so on... and then you say most were Slavs, Poles and Italians? Serious lack of consistency there.

Fact is many of the mass executions of Poles was in fact the Russians, and many of the executions of the slavs was in fact the KGB shooting retreating troops.

Now I am not saying that the Germans did not execute POWs because they did that everywhere, but you forget how the allied POWs, especially the Russians were used. ... as slave labour. So mass executions was in direct conflict with how they were in reality used in many cases. But again that is not saying that there was no mass executions.

Point is, the Germans were bad and since we won the war, then we might as well push a few of our dirty deeds on them since people will believe that because the Germans were bad.

Moreover it should be clear that when referring to the Allies and war crimes few include the Soviet Union which beyond Katyn was obviously a purveyor of atrocities.

Oh I have never denied (nor commented) on which allies committed the mass killing of POWs..Fact is the Russians were bastards when it came to that, but the western Allies also did it and even trying to deny it is pathetic. The Russians had many death marches of German troops and out of the 200k German troops that surrendered at Stalingrad something like under 10k made it back to Germany after the war..

There is a fantastic and fundamental difference between the bombardment of a city for the purposes of a war aim, even if that aim is the strategic reduction of the city, and carting those people off into the woods with the deliberate intent of killing every single last one of them. The Holocaust, the butchery in Russia, the annihilation of Polish, Czech, Greek, Hungarian communities, and so much more is incomparable to the Allied strategic bombing campaign.

Why on earth are you deliberately trying to mix the fire bombing of cities and civilian together with the holocaust? Trying to play the "guilt" card or something? Every time I point out an allied war crime you throw the guilt card... yea but the Germans had death camps... so what? Does that some how excuse our war crimes? Does that excuse that we killed 40+k civilians in one night of firebombing a city with no military value in it?

You also have a peculiar inability to distinguish between the objectives of the Axis and the Allied powers.

LOL they had the exact same objective.. to win the war by any means possible.

The entire reason people give the US and the UK a lenient pass on the German strategic bombing campaign is because the Allies were battling to roll back totalitarian and genocidal fascism from the continent. Every day the regime existed was a crime against the millions suffering under their yolk.

err no. Most people including many in government did not know of the "genocidal" aspect of Nazi Germany until the last months of the war. Using that as an excuse for why we hated the Germans and went to war.. is pathetic.

Now the Allies were battling the Germans because they were threatening the dominance of the allies on the global scale... pure and simple. That it was packaged in as being democracy against fascism is often a smoke screen on the fact that quite a number of the policies of Nazi Germany actually came from the US and UK, and that there was great sympathy with Nazi Germany in the US and parts of the UK in the 1930s.

Germany and eugenics are often linked because of Nazi Germany, and yet many forget that the whole idea and principles actually came from the US and UK and were actively practiced there also even after the freaking war.

You must be trolling. The shooting of a POW at Dachau by America troops, does not equate to the mountain of atrocities committed by the Third Reich.

Who ever said that it was? I am saying that the shooting of a POW on the beaches of Normany or at Dachau is a war crime, just as if the Germans did it. The scale does not matter.

No the Allies did not. This is factually untrue. The Allies (the Western Powers) did not engage in the mass execution of Nazi, Italian, or Japanese POW's.

Depends on the definition of "mass". Shooting 10 POWs is that mass or do you need to go over 20? How about 3 or 4 at a time every 30 minutes across a battlefield for 8 hours or more? Is that mass?

And do you have any examples where thousands of POWs were executed by any side... other than the Russian example that was blamed on the Nazies?

Ever heard of the Chenogne massacre? And the aftermath of the Malmedy massacre by US troops?

The Allies did not engage in the mass looting of art and cultural artifacts.

Actually... you need to be careful here. The Russians did engage in organized mass looting of art and cultural artifacts from Germany during and after the war. On the Western front there was no official policy to do this, but there were many rumors of allied troops looting their way across Western Europe. Artifacts have turned up in the US decades after the war... artifacts that were originally taken by the Nazis and disappeared after the war.

The Allies did not engage in the mass slaughter of entire communities with the purpose of extinguishing entire peoples from the continent.

The holocaust thing again... we get it, the Nazis were bad as they committed genocide.

This is relativism gone wild and it is why liberalism has been so unfortunately but savagely maligned. This is lunacy.

The only lunacy here is your attempt to justify war crimes by saying the other side did far worse, hence our sides war crimes were some how justified and have to be accepted.

No. No one thinks that except for Nazi sympathizers and simpletons. You spit on the graves of untold millions when you make that comparison. It is despicable.

Did you really go there? Loosing an argument and you go there to destroy the debate... congrats. Oh and yes you have been reported.
 
Err and you base this on what exactly?

Now wait a minute...First you say they killed millions of Polish, Soviet, Italian, American, British, French and so on... and then you say most were Slavs, Poles and Italians? Serious lack of consistency there.

What? I wrote that they murdered POW's from all of these nationalities, and I said rather clearly that simply because the majority in terms of body-count were Slavs, Poles, and Italians does not make the Nazi crimes any less real. In other words just because comparatively few Americans were shot and killed by the Nazi's does not obviate the gargantuan scale of their crimes regarding POW's.

More than 3.3 million Soviet POW's died in field executions or in Nazi death camps, hundreds of thousands of Polish POW's died in camps or in forest massacres other than Katyn, thousands of Italians were killed after 1944 after they were demobilized, etc etc etc. This is not really up for debate.

Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fact is many of the mass executions of Poles was in fact the Russians, and many of the executions of the slavs was in fact the KGB shooting retreating troops.

Katyn was the Soviets. The Germans had their fair share.

Now I am not saying that the Germans did not execute POWs because they did that everywhere, but you forget how the allied POWs, especially the Russians were used. ... as slave labour. So mass executions was in direct conflict with how they were in reality used in many cases. But again that is not saying that there was no mass executions.

The Soviets used forced labor from German POW's and committed numerous atrocities. The Soviet Union was a totalitarian dictatorship. We are talking about the Western Powers.

Point is, the Germans were bad and since we won the war, then we might as well push a few of our dirty deeds on them since people will believe that because the Germans were bad.

They were despicable. Our dirty deeds do not even register in comparison.

Oh I have never denied (nor commented) on which allies committed the mass killing of POWs..Fact is the Russians were bastards when it came to that, but the western Allies also did it and even trying to deny it is pathetic. The Russians had many death marches of German troops and out of the 200k German troops that surrendered at Stalingrad something like under 10k made it back to Germany after the war..

The Western Allies did not commit systematic massacres of Axis prisoners. Ever. This is factually untrue.

Why on earth are you deliberately trying to mix the fire bombing of cities and civilian together with the holocaust? Trying to play the "guilt" card or something? Every time I point out an allied war crime you throw the guilt card... yea but the Germans had death camps... so what? Does that some how excuse our war crimes? Does that excuse that we killed 40+k civilians in one night of firebombing a city with no military value in it?

Because it is essential. Saying "the Allies were just as bad" which is what you have been saying is meaningless if you do not include the Holocaust and the totality of Nazi crimes on the scales. It provides context both for the motivation in using extreme measures to topple the Nazi regime, and a comparative scale.

LOL they had the exact same objective.. to win the war by any means possible.

You completely missed my point. Which is that why they were fighting matters almost as much as how they fought.

err no. Most people including many in government did not know of the "genocidal" aspect of Nazi Germany until the last months of the war. Using that as an excuse for why we hated the Germans and went to war.. is pathetic.

Obfuscation. Did the Allies know the exact or complete details of the Holocaust? No. Did they and the public at large know that the Nazi's had committed mass atrocities and likely massacred hundreds of thousands? Yes. Did they and the public at large know that the Nazi's had created an aggressive totalitarian regime bent on continental domination and beyond? Yes. Did they and the public and lathe know that the Nazi's had gruesome plans for the lands it occupied and posed an existential threat to democracy? Yes.

Now the Allies were battling the Germans because they were threatening the dominance of the allies on the global scale... pure and simple. That it was packaged in as being democracy against fascism is often a smoke screen on the fact that quite a number of the policies of Nazi Germany actually came from the US and UK, and that there was great sympathy with Nazi Germany in the US and parts of the UK in the 1930s.

This sort of nonsense belongs in the conspiracy theory section, it could have been penned by Pat Buchanan. You connect things that are true (sympathy for Nazism in Western countries) with the notion that this was simply a war to preserve a balance of power. Power politics always plays a role in the calculus of great events. But it is not the only one. The character of the Third Reich, just as the character of the Soviet Union, plays as much if not a larger role.

The fear was not that a democratic Weimar Germany was becoming too powerful, it was that a totalitarian Nazi regime that threatened democracy, continental peace, and the lives of millions was aggrandizing power. It became a threat to the democratic and liberal order across the planet.


Who ever said that it was? I am saying that the shooting of a POW on the beaches of Normany or at Dachau is a war crime, just as if the Germans did it. The scale does not matter.

It is a paltry war crime in the comparative scale, an ant hill compared to Mount Everest. Especially for the Dachau killings.

Depends on the definition of "mass". Shooting 10 POWs is that mass or do you need to go over 20? How about 3 or 4 at a time every 30 minutes across a battlefield for 8 hours or more? Is that mass?

No US incident ever exceeded a few dozen and these were vanishingly rare. The Nazi's routinely executed thousands in a single day.

And do you have any examples where thousands of POWs were executed by any side... other than the Russian example that was blamed on the Nazies?

Yes. I already listed one salient example with the death camps for the Soviets, the massacres are too numerous to catologue---there were thousands.

For a non-Soviet one you could look at the Massacre of the Acqui Division where the Nazi's executed 5,000 Italian POW's in an afternoon.

Ever heard of the Chenogne massacre? And the aftermath of the Malmedy massacre by US troops?

Yes, they are minor affairs when making these comparisons.

Actually... you need to be careful here. The Russians did engage in organized mass looting of art and cultural artifacts from Germany during and after the war. On the Western front there was no official policy to do this, but there were many rumors of allied troops looting their way across Western Europe. Artifacts have turned up in the US decades after the war... artifacts that were originally taken by the Nazis and disappeared after the war.

The Soviets did to a limited degree. Allied instances were rare, and were exclusively individual not state or military policy.

The holocaust thing again... we get it, the Nazis were bad as they committed genocide.

You don't really seem to get it actually.

The only lunacy here is your attempt to justify war crimes by saying the other side did far worse, hence our sides war crimes were some how justified and have to be accepted.

The other side was evil and did far worse. Our crimes were minor and should not be compared because it dilutes the impact of the Nazi's and Imperial Japanese crimes. We were justified in doing whatever was necessary to topple the regime.
 
Feel free to explain if I took something out of context, it didn't look like it to me.

Fine the point I made was you can't segregate as an example of bad behaviour what the US did as the other powers did bad things such as genocide & mass rape. I'm not justifying or liquifying anyone.

The OP was arguing the Germans were better behaved than the US. Should you have read the opening comments about the US military and rape in France by the OP.

War is hell and leads to evil acts being committed.*

We could argue all day about the wrongs and rights of fire bombing Germany, Wall Street funding the Nazi regime, and Hiroshima. We could go the other way point to the fact that 'hey we didn't start it' and that some acts were in Someways for the greater good (not Wall Street). It doesn't change the fact that War is evil and enduces both sides to commit evil deeds.

How about this link for a difficult situation:
LiveLeak.com - WW2 - No Mercy For Ship Wrecked Japanese Vessel (Colour) 1943
 
It was still mass murder of civilians. When 40k+ people die in one night of fire bombing of civilian areas, then you go from "tactics" to mass murder... there was no excuse for this .. non, especially when we come after the fact and try to act all holy and righteous because of the whole holocaust thing.

That is a complicated thing.

At first it was strategy. Bombers couldn't hit precision targets, partly because they had to fly at night because of strong air defense mowing them down. I'd say at some point during the war (1940 or so) it made sense to do area attacks on cities with industry militarily. There is a point to be made about the moral necessity to defeat nazi Germany, and I do think it is possible to say that until some point in the war which I can't really determine (possibly D-Day), bombing cities was the only or at least the most effective way to hit the enemy, and there is a case to be made in favor of area bombing, horrible as the effects were.

And that's where the slippery slope towards mass murder started. From area bombing on places with industry (and accepting collateral damage to civilians in large parts of the cities) the strategy evolved into deliberately targetting the morale of the civilian population. That intention, I believe, is one possible line between legitimate strategy and mass murder, especially considering that from the British Blitz experience, the Allies knew that demoralization through bombing civilians didn't work. And it clearly becomes mass murder when the city areas to target are delineated from fire risk maps and population density maps to ensure maximum civilian destruction, when models of German houses with German furniture and even German toys are used to estimate the needed amount of incendiary bombs to burn down cities.

Probably the last meaningful line between mass murder and strategy is crossed when you look at the intention described by the quote by Anderson I posted above. When bombing civilians is used as a means of "reeducation" and not even for military reasons. That happened too.

It is probably hard to put every single one of the allied bombings into the categories "pointless and revengeful mass murder" or "strategy", and there is a large gray zone, but I'm quite sure that by any sensible criteria, bombings in both of those categories occurred.

For me, the bottom line is, regardless of how we judge the people involved, we should see how quickly moral standards can be reduced to zero. And that is a lesson we really need to take on board when we fly around the world and bomb countries (or "take responsibility in the field of security policy" as some people prefer to put it), so that it never happens again. I hope there is a consensus on that between British, Germans, and Americans.

Recently I saw the memorial to bomber command in London (it was guarded by the police!!!), it showed pilots standing on the ground, looking sadly into the sky (from where 50000 of them didn't come back). It was a tribute that I can respect, regardless of any judgement of parts of the bombing campaign.
 
I wouldn't segregate US behaviour to any of the other powers behaviour in the war.

The Germans committed mass genocide,The Japanese committed mass genocide,The Russians committed rapes as vengeance against Germans in Berlin.

War is evil, Occupation is evil, Imperialism is evil, it's what such policies create. "color added

"War is evil."

Were this true, then capitulation to tyrants and genocide, slavery, and conquest would be virtues, would they not?
 
"War is evil."

Were this true, then capitulation to tyrants and genocide, slavery, and conquest would be virtues, would they not?

No.

War is evil and slavery and genocide is evil too.
 
Then, if a country is confronted with a tyrannical invasion by a genocidal power, is going to war with that power inherently evil?

War is evil.

The genocidal invader is evil.
 
"War is evil."

Were this true, then capitulation to tyrants and genocide, slavery, and conquest would be virtues, would they not?

Do you want me to list the US funding of such tyrants that have gone on to commit genocide,slavery, and conquest.

Those 'virtues' are the by-products of your neo-con type thinking. The act of War is evil, it's not romantic. Organised killing between groups of young men is not pretty, it's chaotic, brutal, and steals away basic moralities. The cause does not take away The nature of the very act.

It was only Pearl Harbour that changed the US public stance in any case. It was quite pro those Nazi virtues beforehand. Supported by the pro-nazi upper base of General Motors, Walt Disney, Brown Brothers Harriman, Union Banking Corporation,Consolidated Silesian Steel Company, Standard Oil, Chase Bank, Davis Oil Company, Skull & Bones etc etc
 
War is evil.

The genocidal invader is evil.

So then, as I asked, is surrender to the genocidal invader virtuous?

I'd go further. War is part of the nature of Humanity, obviously. Were it not it would not occur in every major culture. Is man therefore inherently evil?
 
So then, as I asked, is surrender to the genocidal invader virtuous?

I'd go further. War is part of the nature of Humanity, obviously. Were it not it would not occur in every major culture. Is man therefore inherently evil?

War is evil.

Yes humans collectively are evil. We are just animals and act as such.
 
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