- Joined
- Feb 12, 2013
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 2,853
- Location
- Colorado mountains
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Progressive
I am saying that the concept of a militia is antiquated and the National guard does the job the framers intended. At the time the constitution was written some governments forbid the ownership of guns so that the citizenry could not form a militia and fight off a repressive government.That is one way of looking at it. The founders were also very logical. So...
People have to have guns to form a militia [ at least in colonial times forward ]... so, while they may have put this right of the people last, it must, logically, come first.
So that we are clear, you are also saying we should have more militias? That is the Constitutional imperative of this right?
I am saying that the concept of a militia is antiquated and the National guard does the job the framers intended. At the time the constitution was written some governments forbid the ownership of guns so that the citizenry could not form a militia and fight off a repressive government.
In practical terms those times are over. No militia is going to " fight off" the US government if they believe they are being represed. all the AK47s in the world in private hands will not change the course of the United States of America. It is a paranoid pipe dream to think they will.
The second amendment was written by revolutionaries at the time of their revolution and was never updated to reflect the current times.
The time for American revolutions at the point of a gun are long since over. Grow up.
I am saying that the concept of a militia is antiquated and the National guard does the job the framers intended. At the time the constitution was written some governments forbid the ownership of guns so that the citizenry could not form a militia and fight off a repressive government.
In practical terms those times are over. No militia is going to " fight off" the US government if they believe they are being represed. all the AK47s in the world in private hands will not change the course of the United States of America. It is a paranoid pipe dream to think they will.
The second amendment was written by revolutionaries at the time of their revolution and was never updated to reflect the current times.
The time for American revolutions at the point of a gun are long since over. Grow up.
You condone assassination?... Got it.LOL one 25 dollar rifle wielded by a second rate shooter managed to change the USA in 1963. and some clown with two same names and a 65 dollar handgun managed to change our history again right before the 1968 presidential elections.
You condone assassination?... Got it.
Those examples you just gave are a great argument for gun control and regulation, not an argument for your misreading of the second amendment
When you are holed up in a cabin on the woods having a shoot out with the FBI and the ATF because you don't like some law or regulation, Jefferson will not be with you in spirit or word.
The American founders were revolutionaries who had just won their revolution against a repressive colonial government 3000 miles away who still had colonial control and governmental influence over at least half the world.what do you think the Second Amendment is about if its not using violence to rid Americans of an evil government or despotic overlords?
How about the third?You aren't going to get much traction arguing that the Second Amendment is "obsolete."
That is going to happen in any event, the criminal is not worried about any gun laws, hence the label of a criminal. I would rather have a chance, or have some good Samaritan walking by that may have a gun be able to act for the good. What if you had your daughter with you and the perp wanted to take her as well... you would not want at least some sort of "equalizer" on your side to try to stop him?
Asking "pretty please" is probably not gonna do it in most instances.
:lol: :doh OK, Skippy, why does one need a 2A rights rental agreement to stop an insane moron from committing mass murder? :roll:
I am advocating a system of universal BG checks but not using point of sale checks via FFL dealers to do so. When your state issued, photo ID is initially granted, updated or renewed then a BG check is done as part of that process; if you pass the NICS BG check, and are an adult U.S. citizen, then your ID is stamped "GUN OK" and that allows you to buy guns, ammo and to carry a gun. If you are later convicted of a felony, adjudged to be mentally incompetent or placed under a judicial protective order then you must surrender your "GUN OK" ID and the NICS database is updated.
[snip...]
My state updates licenses every three years. Some states update their licenses every seven years. I would be okay with your background check idea if we then changed the renewal of our drivers licenses to every year. A lot can happen in a year and being okay to purchase a gun in the beginning of the year doesn't mean you haven't done something illegal six months later.
That is all one sentence. One complete thought. If it were written as two sentences the meaning would be entirely different and more like what the OP is trying to say. But it isn't ...it's one sentence
The right of the people to "keep and bear arms" is for the purpose of keeping a well regulated militia.
That made sense when it was written as we had just won a populist guerrilla war against a colonial oppressor. That "well regulated militia" is now called the National Guard and they supply the weapons.
Fail. You need to learn what "militia" meant when it was written. Clue...it wasn't a "national guard."
I understand and comprehend fully the meaning of the word "militia" both then and now;Fail. You need to learn what "militia" meant when it was written. Clue...it wasn't a "national guard."
The "Minute men" were militia members made up of ordinary citizens who owned their own muskets and pistols and were at ready in a minute to do battle and make war. They were not professional soldiers. Much of the fighting in the revolutionary war was carried out by these ordinary citizens USING THEIR OWN WEAPONS. This is exactly what Jefferson was referring to when the 2nd amendment was written.mi·li·tia [mi-lish-uh]
noun
1.
a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.
2.
a body of citizen soldiers as distinguished from professional soldiers.
A bit of research into the legal background of the National Guard can be revealing.
There is of course the modern 10 US Code §311, which defines the unorganized militia of the U.S. as essentially all males 18-45 and certain women, and the organized militia as essentially the National Guard. There are also various State statutes (Arizona's defines the state militia to include women as well as men).
10 U.S.C. §311 dates from the Dick Act of 1903, which repealed the Militia Law of 1792, and first wrote the term "National Guard" into law. The Guard as we now know it (dual enlistment: members of State National Guard units required to enlist in the U.S. Reserves) dates from the Army Act of 1940. (Why dual enlistment? In 1912 the Attorney General ruled that NG units could not be sent outside the US, because they were part of (note "part of") the militia, and the Constitution allows the militia to be called up only for domestic purposes -- to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, and execute the laws of the Union. As a result in WWI Guard units were broken up and members drafted into regular Army units as individuals, an inefficient operation and one displeasing to the Guard).
Yep. I'd certainly feel safer if the babbling moron, with a pant load of poop, sitiing just outside the convenince store, asking for my money, had a fully automatic AK-47 at the ready.
1- Tyranny from our government.
2- Invasion from foreign governments.
3- Crime.
This one has become obsolete. When our constitution was created your gun put you pretty equal with the standard individual military opponent. You had a chance. You could make a pretty good run at being alive and defending yourself as an individual. That is all but gone in today's world. even a well armed group of civilians working against military force would not last very long at all, or be much of a seterrent. With our police heavy society the idea of an underground resistance becomes harder also. The tools that allow for finding hidden people and things have vastly improved. In this aspect your gun no longer provides you that same protection. Now if you were to have access to heavy weapons, jets, submarines, missiles, tanks, explosives, and advanced detection and tracking equipment I would think you had a fighting chance. Since the government restricts these things and never gives you access to most of them you are pretty much SOL with your little plinker.
It depends on who is invading. If it were a power that could do something like overcome the US military I would say it would need to also have the power to disarm and lock down the local populace. Yes, in the initial stages you might be an obstacle, but if they are putting down US soldiers and going over better defenses your little gun is not going to be much of a concern to them. I would argue that perhaps such a force that is capable of overpowering the present US military presence does not exist. The reality is that the weapons which would now tear down our defenses would not be fought off by you and your gun. The best you could hope for would be to mount some sort of guerrilla resistance with your guns, which would involve you getting ammo stores before lockdown and confiscation occurred. This might be applicable in the case of massive warfare where they cannot remove your guns.
this is a better argument. Unfortunately it is still not a great one. There are other things which would be cheaper and more effective to implement before a gun. Those things would also be more reliable. For instance an alarm and security system including hard to break into locks and some safes would be an active system that would defend from all attack points, have better perception than you do, and be active more than you are. I am not saying a gun would not have a place, but that there are things which would be more effective to avoid theft or attack that you could do first. A gun does have the necessity of being aimed and fired to work against a determined attacker which is not something you are constantly at the ready to do, nor is it something you can maintain on every attack vector. Also, a gun can be used against you if you are disarmed or it is taken before you can get to where it is. Reliance on it is fail.
Still, being who I am and open to people enjoying recreation I would say recreation is a good reason for us to allow gun ownership. Though I do support restrictions and safety measures I see no reason to deny a law abiding level headed, trained individual to keep and shoot guns for the pure fun of it. All I would ask is we keep them out of the hands of the crazy, criminals, unsupervised children, and intoxicated people. I also think there should be some rules about safety and storage of the gun. But along those lines I do not see a need for any restrictions on what types you can own. If you stay as a law abiding citizen, go to appropriate target ranges or hunting areas, and are not wacked out of your head by either nature or substance I say have at it.
I understand and comprehend fully the meaning of the word "militia" both then and now;
The "Minute men" were militia members made up of ordinary citizens who owned their own muskets and pistols and were at ready in a minute to do battle and make war. They were not professional soldiers. Much of the fighting in the revolutionary war was carried out by these ordinary citizens USING THEIR OWN WEAPONS. This is exactly what Jefferson was referring to when the 2nd amendment was written.
The National Guard grew directly out of the minutemen and to this day show a minute man with musket in hand as their insignia.
View attachment 67153081
IT IS YOU CALGUN WHO FAILS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT A MILITIA IS AND YOU HAVE DEMONSTRATED YOUR IGNORANCE OF WHAT THE NATIONAL GUARD IS AND WHERE THE ORGANIZATION GREW FROM..
Here, ... read and learn;
Your FAILURE to comprehend the written word is breathtaking. The Minute Men made up about one fourth of the American Militia and I have demonstrated that the National Guard grew directly out of that organization.. The "Sons of Liberty" were another large Militia group (battle of Lexington Green and the Boston Tea party) who were instrumental as an adjunct to the Continental Army under General Washington in the Revolutionary war.Your presented arrogance does not make you right. I noticed you failed to produce any idea of what "militia" meant to the founding fathers and those who actually wrote it into the 2nd Amendment. Now I realize it doesn't matter to you because you want me to be dependent on government for my personal safety and security, you want me to void my rights to keep and bear arms so that you can better control me, but neither is going to happen. You really need to do your homework and learn about the word "militia" in 1776 and what it meant in that day and age, and I will repeat it meant or had nothing to do with the national guard or minute men. (all though the minute mean would have been included they were in fact only part of the militia of the 1770's era).
In the revolutionary war any able bodied white man between 18 and 45 were considered the militia and they joined local groups who were regulated and organized by local government to be an effective adjunct to General Washington's Continental Army Usually USING THEIR OWN WEAPONS.The delegates of the Constitutional Convention (the founding fathers/framers of the United States Constitution) under Article 1; section 8, clauses 15 and 16 of the federal constitution, granted Congress the power to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia," as well as, and in distinction to, the power to raise an army and a navy. The US Congress is granted the power to use the militia of the United States for three specific missions, as described in Article 1, section 8, clause 15: "To provide for the calling for of the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions." The Militia Act of 1792[17] clarified whom the militia consists of; " Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act."
One sentence talking directly about the militia and allowing those who are that U.S. Militia to arm themselves for that purpose. ( All white males between 18 and 45)A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
I have done my "homework" showing what was meant by "militia" in 1791 and that Militia is what the 2nd amendment is referring to.The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights and protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.[1]
In the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case.[2] In the twentieth century, the federal courts construed that the government could limit any weapon types not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.[3][4]
Your FAILURE to comprehend the written word is breathtaking. The Minute Men made up about one fourth of the American Militia and I have demonstrated that the National Guard grew directly out of that organization.. The "Sons of Liberty" were another large Militia group (battle of Lexington Green and the Boston Tea party) who were instrumental as an adjunct to the Continental Army under General Washington in the Revolutionary war.
In the revolutionary war any able bodied white man between 18 and 45 were considered the militia and they joined local groups who were regulated and organized by local government to be an effective adjunct to General Washington's Continental Army Usually USING THEIR OWN WEAPONS.
This is exactly what the 2nd amendment is referring to;
One sentence talking directly about the militia and allowing those who are that U.S. Militia to arm themselves for that purpose. ( All white males between 18 and 45)
The 2nd amendment was not always interpreted as broadly as it has been recently and may well be seen by the Federal courts differently in the future.
I have done my "homework" showing what was meant by "militia" in 1791 and that Militia is what the 2nd amendment is referring to.
What do you have CalGun?:2wave:
That is all one sentence. One complete thought. If it were written as two sentences the meaning would be entirely different and more like what the OP is trying to say. But it isn't ...it's one sentence
The right of the people to "keep and bear arms" is for the purpose of keeping a well regulated militia.
That made sense when it was written as we had just won a populist guerrilla war against a colonial oppressor. That "well regulated militia" is now called the National Guard and they supply the weapons.
There is a reason that those comma's are there. Study up on your grammar.
No there isn't. The modern rules regarding the usage of commas was not very well developed back then. In fact, there are two different versions of the second amendment, one with three commas and one with a single comma.
So you are wrong, nobody needs to study up on grammar. But you need to study up on history.
Fail. You need to learn what "militia" meant when it was written. Clue...it wasn't a "national guard."
You are correct CalGun, but so is he. "Militia" means National Guard today. Things change, including the meaning of the term militia and meaning of the second amendment itself. But you are right that the original meaning of the second amendment relates to what "militia" meant at the time.
The "militia" at the time the second amendment was written referred to a body of white Protestant males under the direct authority of the state government. Today the meaning of the second amendment has changed to such a significant degree that it has no bearing on what "militia" means. It is an individual right, entirely divorced of its historical meaning. That's for the best. But let's not delude ourselves about history.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?