The Coronavirus Is the Worst Intelligence Failure in U.S. History (1 Viewer)

[Thoreau72]

COVID-19 study deals blow to conspiracy theorists

A new study on the origins of COVID-19 has concluded that the pandemic-causing strain developed naturally, and not in a laboratory.

Those behind the scenes are in full disinformation mode, because the facts from around the world are all pointing to high likelihood of the origin being US of A.

Even as Russia and China and Cuba send aid to Italy and others hit hard, the US, NATO and Poland denied travel through Polish airspace to deliver humanitarian aid to Italy.

The mask is falling from the faces of the cruel humans.

 

[Jack Hays]

Those behind the scenes are in full disinformation mode, because the facts from around the world are all pointing to high likelihood of the origin being US of A.

Even as Russia and China and Cuba send aid to Italy and others hit hard, the US, NATO and Poland denied travel through Polish airspace to deliver humanitarian aid to Italy.

The mask is falling from the faces of the cruel humans.

Tin foil hat nonsense.

 

[Thoreau72]

Tin foil hat nonsense.

That term most likely describes the official narratives of bat soup and all that BS.

That term certainly describes the official narrative of 19 arab hijackers with box cutters. :mrgreen:

 

[Atomic Kid]

I don't believe the origen of that flu is an issue here.

Then why did you bring it up?

 

[jmotivator]

Right, you saying no changes everything. Why did you not say it sooner?

When measuring against all other countries, our response is on par, and so far our outcomes are good, in relative terms to those other countries. The US is 20th in the world in COVID-19 deaths per capita, and 36th in the world in COVID-19 cases per capita (Source). So tell me where that shows the US response has been poor? Your argument would have us ignore the outcomes and focus on the opinion of talking heads in the media. No thanks.

As I said in another thread, there is evidence that our response not only has slowed the spread of COVID-19, but is also ending the flu season early. The latter will save thousands of lives. Also, the doom folks can either believe it is far more wide spread than we know due to what they see as a failed response OR that COVID-19 has a much higher than normal mortality rate ... but you can't have both. If the first is true then the second is false, and vise versa, because the one thing we do know is how many people have died from COVID-19. Higher than observed infections means a lower mortality rate, and for the observed mortality rate to be accurate then we must assume that we know the current cases is a fair estimate of total infections.

The flu kills 20,000 to 60,000 Americans every year. If US response to COVID-19 ends the flu season early then the US response resulted in net lives saved.

I know this is very hard on you. I'm sorry I can't give you worse news. :roll:

 

[prometeus]

When measuring against all other countries, our response is on par, and so far our outcomes are good, in relative terms to those other countries. The US is 20th in the world in COVID-19 deaths per capita, and 36th in the world in COVID-19 cases per capita (Source). So tell me where that shows the US response has been poor? Your argument would have us ignore the outcomes and focus on the opinion of talking heads in the media. No thanks.

As I said in another thread, there is evidence that our response not only has slowed the spread of COVID-19, but is also ending the flu season early. The latter will save thousands of lives. Also, the doom folks can either believe it is far more wide spread than we know due to what they see as a failed response OR that COVID-19 has a much higher than normal mortality rate ... but you can't have both. If the first is true then the second is false, and vise versa, because the one thing we do know is how many people have died from COVID-19. Higher than observed infections means a lower mortality rate, and for the observed mortality rate to be accurate then we must assume that we know the current cases is a fair estimate of total infections.

The flu kills 20,000 to 60,000 Americans every year. If US response to COVID-19 ends the flu season early then the US response resulted in net lives saved.

I know this is very hard on you. I'm sorry I can't give you worse news. :roll:

All you are doing is making a apathetic attempt to excuse the poor actions by Trump and his administration. YES, we have better situations, at least currently, than some other countries, but that was and is not in contention. How much better could it be if Trump and his administration would have acted more responsibly and competently on countless levels?

 

[humbolt]

Then why did you bring it up?

If you don't understand the significance of that event, I'm not going to explain it to you. The name of it is unimportant. It could be called the Especially Nasty and Deadly Flu.

 

[Atomic Kid]

If you don't understand the significance of that event, I'm not going to explain it to you. The name of it is unimportant. It could be called the Especially Nasty and Deadly Flu.

You just said it wasn't significant. Now you're saying that is significant. Make up your damn mind, will you?

 

[jmotivator]

All you are doing is making a apathetic attempt to excuse the poor actions by Trump and his administration.

No, I gave you the facts from neutral sources and argued my conclusion from them.

YES, we have better situations, at least currently, than some other countries, but that was and is not in contention. How much better could it be if Trump and his administration would have acted more responsibly and competently on countless levels?

If your argument is that there is some Utopian best-response to a global pandemic that the Trump administration has failed to meet then save that for your anti-trump quilting circle, I have no time for that imaginary nonsense.

 

[humbolt]

You just said it wasn't significant. Now you're saying that is significant. Make up your damn mind, will you?

I've not departed from my point. You don't seem to have one.

 

[Atomic Kid]

I've not departed from my point. You don't seem to have one.

You haven't made any relevant points as you hardly even know what it is you are talking about. First the US entered WWI without any coordinated intelligence effort. President Wilson was a champion of open diplomacy. He disdained the use of spies and was generally suspicious of intelligence. Although his views on that appeared to change later on. What's more is that in 1918 doctors didn't know that influenza viruses existed. Most experts thought it was being caused by a bacterium known as "Pfeiffer’s bacillus".

 

[humbolt]

You haven't made any relevant points as you hardly even know what it is you are talking about. First the US entered WWI without any coordinated intelligence effort. President Wilson was a champion of open diplomacy. He disdained the use of spies and was generally suspicious of intelligence. Although his views on that appeared to change later on. What's more is that in 1918 doctors didn't know that influenza viruses existed. Most experts thought it was being caused by a bacterium known as "Pfeiffer’s bacillus".

I don't think you'd know a relevant point if you fell over it. Intelligence efforts have existed since humans were hunters. The notion that this disease represents an intelligence failure is very nearly ridiculous. Intelligence may guide policy, but it's equally likely it will not, that it'll be misinterpreted, or only accepted in part. If you have a beef, and it doesn't look like you can articulate it if you do, it's with policy. The notion that a pandemic could be catastrophic to human beings has been around for a very, very long time, by example, if nothing else.

 

[iguanaman]

Nope. Clearly Wison's failure to prevent the Spanish Flu outbreak was magnitudes worse.

Except 100 years ago medical technology and knowledge were in the stone age. We have the best people in the world now and our failure stands out like a sore thumb when comparing it to other less prosperous nations. It is a failure of leadership.

The East Asian countries went into action. Many had experienced the 2003 SARS outbreak and had public health teams on alert for new epidemics. More than two months later, the number of confirmed cases has skyrocketed in the US, with more than 250 cases per million people, far higher than China, which has approximately 57 cases per million; Hong Kong, 60; Taiwan, 11; Singapore, 117; Japan, 11; and Korea, 180.

Covid-19: Why America has the world's most confirmed cases (opinion) - CNN

 

[humbolt]

Except 100 years ago medical technology and knowledge were in the stone age. We have the best people in the world now and our failure stands out like a sore thumb when comparing it to other less prosperous nations. It is a failure of leadership.
.


Covid-19: Why America has the world's most confirmed cases (opinion) - CNN

Perhaps policy.missteps at the outset , but not a failure of intelligence. Even the most informed intelligence assessment of something like this disease would likely not provide enough certainty to inform policy, and certainly not the politics behind it.

 

[iguanaman]

Perhaps policy.missteps at the outset , but not a failure of intelligence. Even the most informed intelligence assessment of something like this disease would likely not provide enough certainty to inform policy, and certainly not the politics behind it.

Perhaps if Trump had not cut our epidemic control teams in China and 38 other countries we might have had a chance for a better outcome. It seems that in disease control as well as in our diplomatic corp Trump has left us weak and vulnerable. Could it have been intentional or is it just criminally stupid?

Trump bears direct responsibility for America's unpreparedness and failed response to the epidemic. Since Trump came into office, he has systematically taken apart our protective public health system. The pandemic unit at the National Security Council was dismantled in 2018 under his watch. Trump slashed the CDC's epidemic control teams in 39 countries, including China. And when the epidemic hit, Trump ignored it, downplayed it, and made repeated false claims. Even now, he spouts vulgar nonsense about restarting the economy by Easter when public health experts say the threat is going to persist for far longer.

Search CNN - Videos, Pictures, and News - CNN.com

 

[prometeus]

No, I gave you the facts from neutral sources and argued my conclusion from them.

WHat facts did you post and by what metric did you find them satisfactory?

If your argument is that there is some Utopian best-response

Nothing utopian about the simple fact that Trump, as usual, screwed the pooch and we could be in a much better situation, but until you set aside your partisanship and ignorance you will never see that.

 

[humbolt]

Perhaps if Trump had not cut our epidemic control teams in China and 38 other countries we might have had a chance for a better outcome. It seems that in disease control as well as in our diplomatic corp Trump has left us weak and vulnerable. Could it have been intentional or is it just criminally stupid?



Search CNN - Videos, Pictures, and News - CNN.com

Yeah, perhaps. The much ballyhooed dismantling of the pandemuc response team is in reality just a bureaucratic shuffling. Most of those people just do the same thing elsewhere within the hierarchy. You folks are overly impressed with titles, and under-appreciative of substance.

I can look at the deaths here from this disease and not panic. No sane person doesn't mourn the loss of these lives, but we're far from a national disaster. We lost over 12,000 lives to the swine flu in 2009. I don't remember such a panic then, and our lost now are not yet approaching those numbers. Get a grip, quit trying to make political hay over this, and behave in a rational manner. Trump is not the cause of this pandemic, and had he reacted a small number of days sooner, it would not have prevented it's spread here. Sorry. Isolation in a city like NYC is very nearly a practical impossibility. Once this disease is loose in such a densely populated area, it's spread is assured.

 

[iguanaman]

Yeah, perhaps. The much ballyhooed dismantling of the pandemuc response team is in reality just a bureaucratic shuffling. Most of those people just do the same thing elsewhere within the hierarchy. You folks are overly impressed with titles, and under-appreciative of substance.

I can look at the deaths here from this disease and not panic. No sane person doesn't mourn the loss of these lives, but we're far from a national disaster. We lost over 12,000 lives to the swine flu in 2009. I don't remember such a panic then, and our lost now are not yet approaching those numbers. Get a grip, quit trying to make political hay over this, and behave in a rational manner. Trump is not the cause of this pandemic, and had he reacted a small number of days sooner, it would not have prevented it's spread here. Sorry. Isolation in a city like NYC is very nearly a practical impossibility. Once this disease is loose in such a densely populated area, it's spread is assured.

Just because we can't know the damage that Trump's cuts did to our response does not mean it is not significant. We had those teams in 39 countries for good reason and Trump fired them.
We had a much better handle on Swine flu and we were not having our hospitals overwhelmed like now were we? Covid 19 spreads far more easily, has 20 times the hospitalization rate and 10 times the mortality rate of swine flu yet you think it is comparable? We could easily be losing 12,000 lives A DAY in a month.

 

[humbolt]

Just because we can't know the damage that Trump's cuts did to our response does not mean it is not significant. We had those teams in 39 countries for good reason and Trump fired them.
We had a much better handle on Swine flu and we were not having our hospitals overwhelmed like now were we? Covid 19 spreads far more easily, has 20 times the hospitalization rate and 10 times the mortality rate of swine flu yet you think it is comparable? We could easily be losing 12,000 lives A DAY in a month.

We had no handle on the swine flu. If we did, over 12,000 might still be alive. Obama waited six months to declare an emergency. I do agree that the swine flu was not as contagious as this virus, but you have to consider that given it's novel status, there is no significant immunity in the global population. I have noted an area of east Africa where the spread seems insignificant to date. I wonder why that is the case.

We could experience death on an unprecedented scale. We could be hit by a massive asteroid. As it stands, we have every reason to believe that we'll get a handle on the spread, develop effective treatments to speed recovery, develop herd immunity over time, and eventually have a vacine.

You can panick and predict gloom and doom if you like. I'm going to go continue to work on some drawings. My shop is virus free, too.

 

[upsideguy]

Pearl clutching at its finest right there ^. Trump did not design the system that made one lab in Atlanta ground zero for testing results. What they did do was try to come up with a better testing kit that could be used nationally. Unfortunately it did not work out. We have a highly fragmented health care model in the US without uniformity of equipment, training, and capabilities. That is not Trump's fault either. They continue to work on that test kit as well as test at home kits, but declaring we should already have them is a lot easier than actually inventing them.

Three years into his presidency, it is indeed his fault.

He would be held responsible if three years into his presidency and our military were ill-equipped to defend or respond to an attack. Why should he get a pass when he ignored the threat of a pandemic. It is the job of the President to ensure the defense of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic.... which would include keeping us safe from pandemic. It is his job to be prepared for such an event.

Not only did he ignore (repeatedly) the threat, he actually took actions that served to lower our defenses. The better argument would be whether that was a gross dereliction of duty or merely incompetence?

He did not keep us safe...

[video]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/02/15/trump_for_years_ive_heard_bush_kept_country_safe_a fter_911_what_does_that_mean_what_about_during.htm l[/video]

 

[jmotivator]

WHat facts did you post and by what metric did you find them satisfactory?

The clue is the blue hyperlinked text that says "Source". Click that and tell me if you have a problem with their accounting.

Nothing utopian about the simple fact that Trump, as usual, screwed the pooch and we could be in a much better situation, but until you set aside your partisanship and ignorance you will never see that.

Again, you spout nonsense. I have shown you that the US is actually doing pretty well compared to Europe and most of the rest of the world, and all you can do is post baseless claims that you can't defend.

 

[distraff]

The Coronavirus Is the Worst Intelligence Failure in U.S. History

It’s more glaring than Pearl Harbor and 9/11—and it’s all the fault of Donald Trump’s leadership.

...Suffice it to say, the Trump administration has cumulatively failed, both in taking seriously the specific, repeated intelligence community warnings about a coronavirus outbreak and in vigorously pursuing the nationwide response initiatives commensurate with the predicted threat. The federal government alone has the resources and authorities to lead the relevant public and private stakeholders to confront the foreseeable harms posed by the virus. Unfortunately, Trump officials made a series of judgments (minimizing the hazards of COVID-19) and decisions (refusing to act with the urgency required) that have needlessly made Americans far less safe.

...By now, there are three painfully obvious observations about Trump’s leadership style that explain the worsening coronavirus pandemic that Americans now face. First, there is the fact that once he believes absolutely anything—no matter how poorly thought-out, ill-informed, or inaccurate—he remains completely anchored to that initial impression or judgment. Leaders are unusually hubristic and overconfident; for many, the fact that they have risen to elevated levels of power is evidence of their inherent wisdom. But truly wise leaders authentically solicit feedback and criticism, are actively open thinkers, and are capable of changing their minds. By all accounts, Trump lacks these enabling competencies.

--

More continued at link:

The Coronavirus Is the Worst Intelligence Failure in U.S. History, and It's All Trump's Fault

It is true that Trump could have done more to limit the spread early on and he dropped the ball. But quarantine is not the solution and shutting down the economy just makes our problems worse.

 

[iguanaman]

We had no handle on the swine flu. If we did, over 12,000 might still be alive. Obama waited six months to declare an emergency. I do agree that the swine flu was not as contagious as this virus, but you have to consider that given it's novel status, there is no significant immunity in the global population. I have noted an area of east Africa where the spread seems insignificant to date. I wonder why that is the case.

We could experience death on an unprecedented scale. We could be hit by a massive asteroid. As it stands, we have every reason to believe that we'll get a handle on the spread, develop effective treatments to speed recovery, develop herd immunity over time, and eventually have a vacine.

You can panick and predict gloom and doom if you like. I'm going to go continue to work on some drawings. My shop is virus free, too.

Yes we will get thru this but we need to learn from it too. Trump was wrong to fire the pandemic teams around the world and you need to admit that. He was also wrong to discount and claim it was not a threat to us.

 

[prometeus]

The clue is the blue hyperlinked text that says "Source". Click that and tell me if you have a problem with their accounting.



Again, you spout nonsense. I have shown you that the US is actually doing pretty well compared to Europe and most of the rest of the world, and all you can do is post baseless claims that you can't defend.

Humor me, what metrics and how are you applying them in making the claim that we are doing OK or better than some.

 

[jmotivator]

Humor me, what metrics and how are you applying them in making the claim that we are doing OK or better than some.

Why should I humor you by re-posting something you are too lazy to scroll back to?