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The Constitution grants you nothing

and whether you like it or not-with firepower to enforce them

You're on the right track.

Rights are best conceived not so much as the capacity to do something but as the capacity to overcome an obstacle to doing it. If, for instance, someone says you cannot occupy a piece of land, you can overcome that obstacle by proving ownership and, thus, a property right, which includes the power to command its use.

I know that's not the "firepower" you had in mind but it's conceptually similar.
 
The pen is mightier than the sword, my friend. History is recorded in ink. God gave man dominion over the animals and while man recorded that fact in ink, it remains true whether inked or not. God made man in his image and breathed life and with it, free will. God gave man this command, “You are free…” Genesis 2:16. Man records these events in ink, but God's covenants require no ink. They are true with or without ink.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So those are the rights which you believe are inherent to humanity: Freedom to eat from any tree. In fact technically, only every tree in the garden of Eden, except of course the one for which the sentence is death - for oneself, and one's children, and one's children's children until kingdom come.
 
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So those are the rights which you believe are inherent to humanity: Freedom to eat from any tree. In fact technically, only every tree in the garden of Eden, except of course the one for which the sentence is death - for oneself, and one's children, and one's children's children until kingdom come.

Nevertheless, God's grant of free will, including the right to choose to oppose his will are evident from the parable. If man were not free, he couldn't have violated God's command and eaten from the tree of knowledge. And while I don't recommend going against God's commands, His grant of free will is evident for all to see.
 
Nevertheless, God's grant of free will, including the right to choose to oppose his will are evident from the parable. If man were not free, he couldn't have violated God's command and eaten from the tree of knowledge. And while I don't recommend going against God's commands, His grant of free will is evident for all to see.

I don't think anyone was disputing that we are capable of doing whatever we want, were they? That was rather the point, as I read it at least: That in the absence of rules and the ability to enforce them, people and animals will do whatever they damn well please!

'In his Thoughts, which I have always considered fare badly in translation, Bouffant says that intervening in order to prevent a murder is to curtail the freedom of the murderer and yet that freedom, by definition, is natural and universal, without condition,’ said Vetinari. ‘You may recall his famous dictum: “If any man is not free, then I too am a small pie made of chicken”, which has led to a considerable amount of debate. Thus we might consider, for example, that taking a bottle from a man killing himself with drink is a charitable, nay, praiseworthy act, and yet freedom is curtailed once more. Mr Gilt has studied his Bouffant but, I fear, failed to understand him. Freedom may be mankind’s natural state, but so is sitting in a tree eating your dinner while it is still wriggling.'
~ Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
 
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God had rules and he enforced them. Did God not know man would eat from the tree?

Man has dominion over animals. Is this your argument? That animals are equal to man? Man may rightly eat animal, animal may not rightly eat man. The Gospel of Thomas records the sayings of Jesus. The seventh says: "Blessed is the lion which man eats so that the lion becomes man. But cursed is the man whom lion eats so the man becomes lion." This applies both literally and figuratively.

Regarding the natural state of man, look at two men raised by wolves hundreds of miles apart. They are each completely free. They are each superior to animals. Their liberty is unobstructed, their actions boundless. God's grant of free will is limitless as far as each is concerned. Until the day one meets the other. On that day, one man's right to act freely becomes slightly limited by the other's presence. Previously, one could swing his fists anywhere he pleased, but today, neither may (rightly) hit the other. This is the limit on God's grant of freedom and the limit(s) presupposed by the founders. That each man be as free as possible, without infringing on other's equal rights to be free. The goal of government is therefore, to protect each man's individual equal rights to the maximum extent possible.

That does not include taking from one to give to the other. It does not include Obamacare, seat-belts, motorcycle helmets, forced socialized retirements, etc.. It does not include majoritarianism, where the group strips the individual of his rights. Rights are not communal, they are not additive. Two men's rights do not outweigh another individual man's rights. The individual reigns supreme above organizations of men. These are the lessons of our founders, derived from God's grant of free-will.
 
I always hear people saying "the *insert amendment* gives me *insert right*" No, it does not. The Constitution is there in order to limit the government from taking those rights from you. You were given those right by God/nature/whatever you believe. The Constitution is supposed to act as protection from government.

I'm sick of conservatives and liberals alike using it to limit the People.

What's your take on how the Constitution is supposed to be used? By government to show and tell the people what they can/can't do? Or by the People to stop the government from doing things they shouldn't do?

But, I have to admit, the government ignores the Constitution sometimes anyways.

Practicing the art of understatement there?

What we see today and a lot of the attitude some, like liberals, have of the constitution and "rights" results from the simple human nature that something given has no value, only something earned has any true value. Some have simply taken for granted that these "rights", and others, exist without understanding that all of them must be fought for for them to actually exist in society. Too few earn these rights through their own efforts. They have been given by others and now so many show how much they really value them.
 
I always hear people saying "the *insert amendment* gives me *insert right*" No, it does not. The Constitution is there in order to limit the government from taking those rights from you. You were given those right by God/nature/whatever you believe. The Constitution is supposed to act as protection from government.

I'm sick of conservatives and liberals alike using it to limit the People.

What's your take on how the Constitution is supposed to be used? By government to show and tell the people what they can/can't do? Or by the People to stop the government from doing things they shouldn't do?

But, I have to admit, the government ignores the Constitution sometimes anyways.

I would say that the Constitution "gives" certain procedural rights, with frequent reference to Common Law traditions. These procedural rights are found mostly in Amendments 5, 6, 7 & 9
 
The discussion centered around the written word and the written word appeared approximately 6,000 years ago. Misrepresenting arguments is a deplorable debating tactic.

I wasn't aware that wall paintings depiciting human life don't count as recorded human history despite being recorded by humans of their history.

I said history recorded by the written word, is approximately 6,000 years old. That's "recorded history." Are there older cave drawings? Yes. But, it's the written word that truly records history, not buffalo drawings. I was refuting your ardent opposition to the power of the written word, not commenting on the age of the universe. I think you know it, but wish to deflect from an indefensible position.

Actually my point of ink on paper is that merely writing it down does not make it true. You don't seem to understand that. It's hilarious how you attack me for misrepresenting an argument and then you go about doing that yourself. You entirely lifted my quote out of the context and replaced it with a false argument.

Your whole argument is "They wrote it down, therefore it's true" and "Goddidit."
 
Practicing the art of understatement there?

What we see today and a lot of the attitude some, like liberals, have of the constitution and "rights" results from the simple human nature that something given has no value, only something earned has any true value. Some have simply taken for granted that these "rights", and others, exist without understanding that all of them must be fought for for them to actually exist in society. Too few earn these rights through their own efforts. They have been given by others and now so many show how much they really value them.

I find it hilarious how Respecttheelect thanked a post that refutes his argument. He probably only read "Liberals" and thanked it.

Your argument serves as reinforcement that such rights only exist in society for everyone because they are fought for on their behalf. If rights were inherently just given by some super natural being, then we would not value them or have to fight for them as they'd simply just exist with no requirement of the right holder to secure them. Again, rights only exist upon the basis of a mechanism of enforcement. Therefore, there is no such thing as inherent rights as not everyone has the inherent capacity to provide their own mechanism to generate such rights.
 
I listed six or more reasons, from which you've selected two for childish derision.

A billion people believe in the God you insult. Every single signer of the Declaration believed, as did every signer of the Constitution and every member of both Continental Congresses. Those patriots pledged their "Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor." They spilled blood for the principles you so glibly dismiss as, "They wrote it down, therefore it's true." You spit on their graves and on their sacrifice. You certainly must've intimidated conservatives with your immature disregard for those who sacrificed before you, because none seem to speak up when you spit on America's patriots?

The words in the Declaration and the Constitution carry the weight of those patriots and all who've followed since. Those who've served contribute to the freedoms and strength of the words. Words of iron and steel.

Progressives who would burn the founding documents, dismiss them as irrelevant or treat them as "living and breathing," would do well to study where their heroes led. Where Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Mao took their nations. Or any of the hundreds of other masterminds who attempted socialist "perfection."

America's foundation is the strongest possible. It's based on maximizing happiness, through human nature and the only principles ever proven to work. Individual liberty and freedom.
 
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I always hear people saying "the *insert amendment* gives me *insert right*" No, it does not. The Constitution is there in order to limit the government from taking those rights from you. You were given those right by God/nature/whatever you believe. The Constitution is supposed to act as protection from government.

I'm sick of conservatives and liberals alike using it to limit the People.

What's your take on how the Constitution is supposed to be used? By government to show and tell the people what they can/can't do? Or by the People to stop the government from doing things they shouldn't do?

But, I have to admit, the government ignores the Constitution sometimes anyways.


i invite you to read the preamble to the bill of rights..........it verifies your position;)
 
Many of those ideals have become real. You should know that by now.

Not when those beliefs revolve around the supernatural. Turning a belief into reality backed by force does not equate to it existing without that force.

If man had inherent rights, we should be able to point to any era in any point in time and find evidence for them.
 
I listed six or more reasons, from which you've selected two for childish derision.

When the arguments all use the same logic, they are the same argument.

A billion people believe in the God you insult. Every single signer of the Declaration believed, as did every signer of the Constitution and every member of both Continental Congresses. Those patriots pledged their "Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor." They spilled blood for the principles you so glibly dismiss as, "They wrote it down, therefore it's true." You spit on their graves and on their sacrifice. You certainly must've intimidated conservatives with your immature disregard for those who sacrificed before you, because none seem to speak up when you spit on America's patriots?

If a billion people believed we should put you to death, does that make it right? All you did was use the fallacy of the popularity. Whatever alot of people believe is automatically true. And an emotional appeal to history doesn't provide any argument about inherent rights that you alleged exist but cannot find any evidence at all for outside of "someone wrote it down" and "Goddidit,"

The words in the Declaration and the Constitution carry the weight of those patriots and all who've followed since. Those who've served contribute to the freedoms and strength of the words. Words of iron and steel.

So you still don't have an argument other than "someone wrote it down."

Progressives who would burn the founding documents, dismiss them as irrelevant or treat them as "living and breathing," would do well to study where their heroes led. Where Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Mao took their nations. Or any of the hundreds of other masterminds who attempted socialist "perfection."

So rather than provide an argument, you just insult me and attempt to label me. FYI, I voted Libertarian two presidential elections in a row. A picture of my ballot is on the forum.

America's foundation is the strongest possible. It's based on maximizing happiness, through human nature and the only principles ever proven to work. Individual liberty and freedom.

And you present nothing. As expected.

If you actually believe that humans have inherent, inalienable rights, find me evidence in the period from 1400 to 1500 AD. Shouldn't be hard if you actually think your belief is so obviously true.
 
Nevertheless, God's grant of free will, including the right to choose to oppose his will are evident from the parable. If man were not free, he couldn't have violated God's command and eaten from the tree of knowledge. And while I don't recommend going against God's commands, His grant of free will is evident for all to see.

Might of even used a bit of "reverse psychology". If he really didn't want them to eat of it, then why create it? Probably just a ruse to draw Satan into the open and to get Adam and Eve to do what he wanted without interfering with their free will.
 
Not when those beliefs revolve around the supernatural. Turning a belief into reality backed by force does not equate to it existing without that force.

If man had inherent rights, we should be able to point to any era in any point in time and find evidence for them.

I suggest you write your own much smarter Constitution, and see if it gains traction. Base it on your own belief system.
 
I find it hilarious how Respecttheelect thanked a post that refutes his argument. He probably only read "Liberals" and thanked it.

Your argument serves as reinforcement that such rights only exist in society for everyone because they are fought for on their behalf. If rights were inherently just given by some super natural being, then we would not value them or have to fight for them as they'd simply just exist with no requirement of the right holder to secure them. Again, rights only exist upon the basis of a mechanism of enforcement. Therefore, there is no such thing as inherent rights as not everyone has the inherent capacity to provide their own mechanism to generate such rights.

I didn't directly contradict him. God also gave us the fruits of the trees and the animals of the forest as food, but he doesn't go out and pick them for us and deliver them. If something is a "right" and truly exists, then it did indeed originate with God, but just like the fruit and the animals, it is up to people to use their free will to get them.

If you cannot learn to use your two hands, two feet and the brain God provided for you to harvest the fruit and animals, then you starve unless someone gives it to you. Same with rights. I, for one, am tired of giving, it's time for all to earn/do for themselves or do without.
 
I suggest you write your own much smarter Constitution, and see if it gains traction. Base it on your own belief system.

You do realize you're coping out of defending your beliefs right? It doesn't matter what I believe, your side has COMPLETELY failed to do anything other than cite "We Believe," "Goddidit" and "Someone Wrote It Down."

None of you are capable of citing any period or any actual evidence to support inherent rights. What is amusing is you cite the COTUS, which is the foundation for the mechanism of enforcement to grant rights as if it somehow refutes my argument. COTUS alone is proof that inherent rights do not exist as we would not need much of it to create a mechanism to enforce such rights if they were inherent.

If you actually believe what you claim, you should be able to find evidence for inherent rights in any period of time. None of you are even appearing to try. I however, can point to very recent instance of total anarchy where such rights disappeared for those who did not have sufficient force to create their own rights. Without a mechanism for enforcement, those rights did not exist. A boy in war torn Somalia has no right to life if he cannot gain a method to enforce it. A man with an AK who has the force to kill those who try to kill him has created his right to life. Without a mechanism of force, rights do not exist. Prove me wrong.

You're a gun advocate right? Why do you need a gun to protect you from others if your rights are inherent?
 
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I didn't directly contradict him.

Yes you did. You argued that it was the act of fighting for a right that values and creates it, as opposed to it merely just existing on its own. Respect argues that rights are inherent and God Given. If that was true, then people in Africa wouldn't get eaten by lions because they have some inherent right to life. Obviously that's wrong. Someone with a rifle who kills a lion who tries to eat him has a mechanism for a right to life. That right was fought for and earned. It did not just exist inherently.

God also gave us the fruits of the trees and the animals of the forest as food, but he doesn't go out and pick them for us and deliver them. If something is a "right" and truly exists, then it did indeed originate with God, but just like the fruit and the animals, it is up to people to use their free will to get them.

Intangible fluff does not constitute reality. How does going to fight for something mean it truly exists and originates with God? The Nazis used their free will to murder Jews, are you saying that right exists and originated with God? That's beyond frightening.

If you cannot learn to use your two hands, two feet and the brain God provided for you to harvest the fruit and animals, then you starve unless someone gives it to you. Same with rights. I, for one, am tired of giving, it's time for all to earn/do for themselves or do without.

None of this supports the notion that rights are inherent. It just states what you believe, rather than presenting evidence that rights are in fact inherent. We can believe all we want. It does not make it true,.
 
None of you are capable of citing any period or any actual evidence to support inherent rights.

If you claim fundamental rights cannot be divined without God, the founder's would agree with you. Don't you think the founder's wanted a source document without referring and relying on God? It was a major point of debate. In the end, they determined what most of the rest of us found - God is required to grant man his rights. Without God, man is nothing.

Whether you believe in God or not is irrelevant. If you believe there's no IRS, try not paying taxes? If you stand in the road, but believe there's no truck bearing down on you, it won't prevent disaster. Your opinion doesn't matter to the truck. Belief will no longer be an issue on judgement day. Enforcement will be settled that day, as well.

You appear to be without God? Good luck with that.
 
If you claim fundamental rights cannot be divined without God, the founder's would agree with you. Don't you think the founder's wanted a source document without referring and relying on God? It was a major point of debate. In the end, they determined what most of the rest of us found - God is required to grant man his rights. Without God, man is nothing.

Whether you believe in God or not is irrelevant. If you believe there's no IRS, try not paying taxes? If you stand in the road, but believe there's no truck bearing down on you, it won't prevent disaster. Your opinion doesn't matter to the truck. Belief will no longer be an issue on judgement day. Enforcement will be settled that day, as well.

You appear to be without God? Good luck with that.

By that rationale, theocracies should be the freest places on earth.
 
Yes you did. You argued that it was the act of fighting for a right that values and creates it, as opposed to it merely just existing on its own. Respect argues that rights are inherent and God Given. If that was true, then people in Africa wouldn't get eaten by lions because they have some inherent right to life. Obviously that's wrong. Someone with a rifle who kills a lion who tries to eat him has a mechanism for a right to life. That right was fought for and earned. It did not just exist inherently.



Intangible fluff does not constitute reality. How does going to fight for something mean it truly exists and originates with God? The Nazis used their free will to murder Jews, are you saying that right exists and originated with God? That's beyond frightening.



None of this supports the notion that rights are inherent. It just states what you believe, rather than presenting evidence that rights are in fact inherent. We can believe all we want. It does not make it true,.

Again, no I didn't. I haven't read any of his arguments along the lines we are discussing nor have I responded to any of them.

How is the fact that someone dies is proof that "right to life" does not exist? Everyone dies. Apparently your erstwhile African didn't use his hands, feet and brain that was given him. Maybe he thought God would come down and save him. God expected him to use the tools given him. It's not that fashioning a spear and using it is exactly tool intensive advanced technology.

I never said fighting for something makes it exist. I said it gives it value to humans. Something earned is more valuable than something given. Further, fighting for it does not show it originates from God, I said that if it exists it comes from God as God created all things. Even Evil originates with God, as he created Satan also.

In order for free will to exist, so must choices. If good exists, so must evil. Everything has an opposite and everyone has choices. The primary reason for Evil to exist would be that without it, there would be no free will as good would be the only available option. Further, the Nazi's also murdered gypsies, homosexuals and killed communists.

Where did I say a right was "inherent"?
 
You do realize you're coping out of defending your beliefs right? It doesn't matter what I believe, your side has COMPLETELY failed to do anything other than cite "We Believe," "Goddidit" and "Someone Wrote It Down."

None of you are capable of citing any period or any actual evidence to support inherent rights. What is amusing is you cite the COTUS, which is the foundation for the mechanism of enforcement to grant rights as if it somehow refutes my argument. COTUS alone is proof that inherent rights do not exist as we would not need much of it to create a mechanism to enforce such rights if they were inherent.

If you actually believe what you claim, you should be able to find evidence for inherent rights in any period of time. None of you are even appearing to try. I however, can point to very recent instance of total anarchy where such rights disappeared for those who did not have sufficient force to create their own rights. Without a mechanism for enforcement, those rights did not exist. A boy in war torn Somalia has no right to life if he cannot gain a method to enforce it. A man with an AK who has the force to kill those who try to kill him has created his right to life. Without a mechanism of force, rights do not exist. Prove me wrong.

You're a gun advocate right? Why do you need a gun to protect you from others if your rights are inherent?

Right granted by government are no more certain than privileges granted by government.
 
God had rules and he enforced them. Did God not know man would eat from the tree?

Man has dominion over animals. Is this your argument? That animals are equal to man? Man may rightly eat animal, animal may not rightly eat man. The Gospel of Thomas records the sayings of Jesus. The seventh says: "Blessed is the lion which man eats so that the lion becomes man. But cursed is the man whom lion eats so the man becomes lion." This applies both literally and figuratively.

Regarding the natural state of man, look at two men raised by wolves hundreds of miles apart. They are each completely free. They are each superior to animals. Their liberty is unobstructed, their actions boundless. God's grant of free will is limitless as far as each is concerned. Until the day one meets the other. On that day, one man's right to act freely becomes slightly limited by the other's presence. Previously, one could swing his fists anywhere he pleased, but today, neither may (rightly) hit the other. This is the limit on God's grant of freedom and the limit(s) presupposed by the founders. That each man be as free as possible, without infringing on other's equal rights to be free. The goal of government is therefore, to protect each man's individual equal rights to the maximum extent possible.

That does not include taking from one to give to the other. It does not include Obamacare, seat-belts, motorcycle helmets, forced socialized retirements, etc.. It does not include majoritarianism, where the group strips the individual of his rights. Rights are not communal, they are not additive. Two men's rights do not outweigh another individual man's rights. The individual reigns supreme above organizations of men. These are the lessons of our founders, derived from God's grant of free-will.

No individual can show that they have any right to impose their will on any other individual.

That's the only indisputable, objective fact which can serve as a foundation for political philosophies. (Frankly even that's potentially dubious in some cases; to what extent do parents have a 'right' to impose their will on their children?) Appeals to divine right historically and still presently serve as the justification for monarchies, theocracies and all kinds of oppression and prejudice. I'd stay away from them on principle. But more importantly, as OC has been highlighting for you, no-one can show that their 'divine right' is real or true - so no-one else has any particular reason to accept it.

If no individual has any right to impose their will on other adults, then an objective political philosophy must acknowledge that as a general rule, all people have equal rights - both under the laws and regulations of a society (whatever they may be), and to a say in the formation of those laws and regulations.

I agree with you that freedom is our natural state, but that's not the same thing as a 'right' (let alone an inalienable one!), anymore than wandering around naked, or the patriarch or alpha male's role is a 'right.' Rights are entitlements, which means there has to be other/s with regard to whom one is entitled. Freedom becomes a right because (in many/most developed democracies) we have collectively agreed to make it a right, a default entitlement which holds true unless some collectively agreed-upon law or regulation restricts it.

For example, we (in many/most developed democracies) have collectively agreed for example that driving a car, building a skyscraper or opening a food service business are not universal freedoms. We require people intending to do those things to seek permission, in the form of licensing, to do so because we deem their possible impacts on others sufficient to warrant it. An alternative society is readily imaginable, one in which the people have collectively agreed that members must seek approval even for their choice of education, job, home or partnership. There are undoubtedly circumstances in which a more restricted society is even beneficial. For example, since you're a biblical fellow, the Israelites' enforced homogeneity and intra-marriage promoted unity and a cultural identity which has survived for thousands of years.

As long as everyone has their right to a say in the structuring of that society, and the freedom to leave if they don't like it, what rational objection could there be against such a decision?

Much as you or I prefer a more open, freer society, what gives either of us the right to dictate what another group of people should or should not collectively decide?
 
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