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The Class System in the USA

No legal inequality exists.

But we weren't talking about the legal system.

We were talking about differences in monetary and social status.


And for that matter, you know as well as I do that in some cases, monetary and/or social status CAN affect the legal system. This is not considered a positive, but it DOES happen.
Thats why I originaly said there are no classes in the US, because the only real classes are legal and OP wasn't talking about the law.

The only classes which exist in the US are the 3 legal classes as stated. There are no social classes since non have more authority than anyother, and there are no economic classes as your income doesn't give you more authority over all other people of lesser incomes. Even when you hold authority over employees thats indivigual and with their consent; you still do not have authority over everyone with smaller incomes than yours.

There are groups and demographics, but no classes. Its all perception, its not real.
 
Historically, Americans have tended to recoil from the notion of class, but in fact today socio-economic class is becoming more of an issue than it is in other similar countries.


"....Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths....."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...ise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
Historically, Americans have tended to recoil from the notion of class, but in fact today socio-economic class is becoming more of an issue than it is in other similar countries.


"....Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths....."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...ise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
11% stay in the top 40%.....that's an extremely weak argument for the existance of classes given the income range that represents.

Also how well people do in life doesn't evidence the existance of a hierarchy. It just means they learned how to manage their money/buisness/career better than other Americans. Anyone can do that so that's not a "class".
 
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Sure there are different classes, but that might not be necessarily decided by one's level of wealth. I've hung out with some of the poorest people in America, and I've hung out with some of the famous and/or richest. But do I get invited to the country club? And do they respect my politics? I don't dislike wealthy people, nor do I think they think they dislike me, per se. However, nobody can deny the growing gap between the rich and the poor here in the good ole USA. I'm a capitalist, and I fear that we are moving beyond capitalism into fascism. Corporatism is a nice word for it, and even some wealthy people are worried about it. Someone try to prove me wrong.
 
Thats why I originaly said there are no classes in the US, because the only real classes are legal and OP wasn't talking about the law.

The only classes which exist in the US are the 3 legal classes as stated. There are no social classes since non have more authority than anyother, and there are no economic classes as your income doesn't give you more authority over all other people of lesser incomes. Even when you hold authority over employees thats indivigual and with their consent; you still do not have authority over everyone with smaller incomes than yours.

There are groups and demographics, but no classes. Its all perception, its not real.

I despise that word and its meanings. It says essentially somebody is better than me because of some arbitrary notion made up by some twit trying divide and conquer in the political arena. **** em. I don't play that stupid silly ass game. I don't know why more than a few of my fellow Americans get sucked into it but they do. Power comes from within, from knowledge, from ability, from resource, from people. In this country what a lot of people don't know is that most people get into the upper 10% of income at some point in their lives, and then most of them drift back out. Its an unusual statistic for country that few people here are aware of. We are a very transitional country in terms of economics. That's why its foolish in this country to put oneself into a class because in all likelihood you wont be in it for long anyhow. People here are generally not static and never have been. Why put a static label on yourself, why label yourself at all?

I understand where you are coming from, the term "class" carries a lot of historical and ideological undertones.

Like when I say "class" here in Germany, way too many people have the Marxist use of this term in mind. That confuses more than it helps explaining. However, "class" doesn't necessarily denote legal discrimination, but may very well point at the borders of socio-economic classes that are almost impossible to cross despite a lack of legal discrimination.

For from being an expert on sociology, but from what I gathered, many sociologists today rather use the term "social layer". Because, as you say, classes as defined above (static groups of people in a society with rather strict borders) don't exist anymore to the extent they once did (like in 19th century industrialization, which is the situation Marx was looking at). It's much easier now to cross from one layer into another.

But that doesn't mean that hurdles don't exist anymore between the different layers. And it doesn't mean everybody is "equal". The hurdles that still exist open the door for a lot of justified social criticism beyond ideologies such as Marxism.

An example often cited in Germany is the very high correlation between economic status of parents and education level and then economic status of their children later in life -- although most schools and universities are virtually free. Short: Children of rich parents are much more likely to get the best possible education, which in turn results in them getting the best paid jobs and become rich themselves. It is much more difficult for children of poor parents to economically ascend. It seems that the social layers are somehow reproducing themselves and other factors are more crucial than just effort, virtues and talents for social ascend -- or at least more than we wish they were. That's especially problematic because many immigrants are of a poor background, and their lack of economic ascend creates more problems.

Another example would be South Africa. Although legal discrimination of the black majority was abolished, there are still rather static social layers (or classes?) strongly connected to skin color. Whites still are "running the show" on many fields, despite them being a minority, and blacks have a hard time getting a foot into the doors, because these social layers are most likely reproducing themselves to some extent.

You don't need to be a Marxist to point at such phenomena, and to feel they're normatively not a good thing but deserve to be addressed.
 
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Since when is the UK a western country?

Since all of Europe was generally classified as "the West"? You can either get lumped in with us, or Saudi Arabia.
 
I understand where you are coming from, the term "class" carries a lot of historical and ideological undertones.

Like when I say "class" here in Germany, way too many people have the Marxist use of this term in mind. That confuses more than it helps explaining. However, "class" doesn't necessarily denote legal discrimination, but may very well point at the borders of socio-economic classes that are almost impossible to cross despite a lack of legal discrimination.

For from being an expert on sociology, but from what I gathered, many sociologists today rather use the term "social layer". Because, as you say, classes as defined above (static groups of people in a society with rather strict borders) don't exist anymore to the extent they once did (like in 19th century industrialization, which is the situation Marx was looking at). It's much easier now to cross from one layer into another.

But that doesn't mean that hurdles don't exist anymore between the different layers. And it doesn't mean everybody is "equal". The hurdles that still exist open the door for a lot of justified social criticism beyond ideologies such as Marxism.

An example often cited in Germany is the very high correlation between economic status of parents and education level and then economic status of their children later in life -- although most schools and universities are virtually free. Short: Children of rich parents are much more likely to get the best possible education, which in turn results in them getting the best paid jobs and become rich themselves. It is much more difficult for children of poor parents to economically ascend. It seems that the social layers are somehow reproducing themselves and other factors are more crucial than just effort, virtues and talents for social ascend -- or at least more than we wish they were. That's especially problematic because many immigrants are of a poor background, and their lack of economic ascend creates more problems.

Another example would be South Africa. Although legal discrimination of the black majority was abolished, there are still rather static social layers (or classes?) strongly connected to skin color. Whites still are "running the show" on many fields, despite them being a minority, and blacks have a hard time getting a foot into the doors, because these social layers are most likely reproducing themselves to some extent.

You don't need to be a Marxist to point at such phenomena, and to feel they're normatively not a good thing but deserve to be addressed.

A-****ing-men.
 
Sure there are different classes, but that might not be necessarily decided by one's level of wealth. I've hung out with some of the poorest people in America, and I've hung out with some of the famous and/or richest. But do I get invited to the country club? And do they respect my politics? I don't dislike wealthy people, nor do I think they think they dislike me, per se. However, nobody can deny the growing gap between the rich and the poor here in the good ole USA. I'm a capitalist, and I fear that we are moving beyond capitalism into fascism. Corporatism is a nice word for it, and even some wealthy people are worried about it. Someone try to prove me wrong.

Prove yourself right. Even though I tend to agree with you.
 
Prove yourself right. Even though I tend to agree with you.

I like you, Kobie. I believe I issued the challenge first, but since I am not above things, I will respond. The gap between the rich and poor in the USA is widening, can we agree on that? Look it up on teh internets if you disagree. I don't think you can look at our political situation here in the US without realizing that our politics have been overcome by the lobbying efforts of well-to-do corporations. Would you agree? And who runs those corporations, and who gambits and makes their earnings on said corporations on Wall Street? Now, have you been to the resorts where only the wealthy are permitted and have you bypassed their security, or are you one of the uber wealthy? Someone still want to try and prove me wrong?
 
I like you, Kobie. I believe I issued the challenge first, but since I am not above things, I will respond. The gap between the rich and poor in the USA is widening, can we agree on that? Look it up on teh internets if you disagree. I don't think you can look at our political situation here in the US without realizing that our politics have been overcome by the lobbying efforts of well-to-do corporations. Would you agree? And who runs those corporations, and who gambits and makes their earnings on said corporations on Wall Street? Now, have you been to the resorts where only the wealthy are permitted and have you bypassed their security, or are you one of the uber wealthy? Someone still want to try and prove me wrong?

Again, you're not wrong. All I was saying is "prove me wrong" is generally a fallacious argument. Carry on. :)
 
I understand where you are coming from, the term "class" carries a lot of historical and ideological undertones.

Like when I say "class" here in Germany, way too many people have the Marxist use of this term in mind. That confuses more than it helps explaining. However, "class" doesn't necessarily denote legal discrimination, but may very well point at the borders of socio-economic classes that are almost impossible to cross despite a lack of legal discrimination.
You're describing generalized subsets of a population, not a hierarchy, and the word for that is "demographic". Yes, the term "class" essentially means "marxism" and so social/economic "class" do not exist in America...or at least they are illegal where found and subject to lawsuit.
 
So since never.

Really? You've never heard of the term "Western Civilization"? It basically classifies everything from the Roman ****ing Empire onward.
 
Again, you're not wrong. All I was saying is "prove me wrong" is generally a fallacious argument. Carry on. :)

Yes, it is generally fallacious. Do you think I'm being fallacious, or don't you think I've left the door open for debate? It is, after all, why we are here, as Jerry previously alluded to.
 
Yes, it is generally fallacious. Do you think I'm being fallacious, or don't you think I've left the door open for debate? It is, after all, why we are here, as Jerry previously alluded to.

Oh, I think there's plenty of debate to be had on the subject, despite the attempts to nail that door shut by others earlier in the thread. Don't get me wrong.
 
Really? You've never heard of the term "Western Civilization"?
Of course I have, stop being stupid. Time zones are not based on Mesopotamia, and so your Christian use of the term does not apply in the literal real world. Time zones are based in England, which makes all of Europe central and you have to literally cross the ocean before you touch your first western country.
 
You're describing generalized subsets of a population, not a hierarchy, and the word for that is "demographic". Yes, the term "class" essentially means "marxism" and so social/economic "class" do not exist in America...or at least they are illegal where found and subject to lawsuit.

You don't know what Western Civilization is, and now you are going to lecture a German on socioeconomic classes? Do you know anything about Germany, and do you realize that there is socioeconomic strata here in the good ole USA? Have you been under a rock, or did you just graduate from the Princeton Croquet Club?
 
Of course I have, stop being stupid. Time zones are not based on Mesopotamia, and so your Christian use of the term does not apply in the literal real world. Time zones are based in England, which makes all of Europe central and you have to literally cross the ocean before you touch your first western country.

I'm not talking about time zones, I'm talking about how things have been referred to for, oh, a long friggin time.
 
Class is a system for disciminating against people who look llike you. "entitlement class"

 
You don't know what Western Civilization is, and now you are going to lecture a German on socioeconomic classes? Do you know anything about Germany, and do you realize that there is socioeconomic strata here in the good ole USA? Have you been under a rock, or did you just graduate from the Princeton Croquet Club?
You should have told me up front that English is not your first language: Yes there is socioeconomic strata, but not socioeconomic classes. Note the different letters used to compose the words? That's a fair indication that they don't mean the same thing, strata and class.
 
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