The Christian Religion and Government

[tosca1]

This topic was inspired by a discussion between Christians concerning abortion.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abort...on-occurs-usa-person-usa-citizen-w191-19.html


To say that, "religion has no place in government," is contrary to the Scriptures. In fact, there is a very significant relationship between government and Christians.

We are expected to obey governmental authorities, and the government is expected to treat its peoples fairly and justly.
Christians are still expected to live up to theirs even if the government had failed to live up to its role.
However, if the government wants the people to do something that is in violation to the command of God, then Christians are expected to disobey that government, and instead place their trust and confidence in God's protection.

WE do not owe allegiance to any ungodly government. Do you think you should if your government is headed by someone like Hitler?

Deliberately murdering the defenseless is not only diabolical, but it is ungodly. Just because man had declared it legal to murder babies, does not make it righteous.
IT WILL NEVER BE RIGHTEOUS IN THE EYES OF GOD.
The diabolical act is further compounded when it is done for selfish reasons, and the pursuit of worldly comforts.



Go to this thread in Religion, "Abortion on Christian Ground".....it illustrates how it's diabolical.

Abortion is like a lasagna - made up of layers of violations against God.

It's not merely a simple act of murder!

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/165071-abortion-christian-grounds.html




When God's will and the government's will come into conflict, our allegiance is to God. This was demonstrated by Daniel, in the Book of Daniel.

Daniel was a faithful public servant in a pagan government, who rose to high level in that government. During his time at the royal court, three of his friends refused to obey the edict to bow before the pagan gods, and had chosen to face death instead.
After the Medes had conquered Babylon, Daniel (who still worked for the government) found himself in a similar dilemma.


Daniel 6
7 All the high officials of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the counselors and the governors are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance and enforce an injunction, that whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions.

8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing.

10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. 12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”

The king answered, “The decree stands—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

13 Then they said to the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, Your Majesty, or to the decree you put in writing. He still prays three times a day.” 14 When the king heard this, he was greatly distressed; he was determined to rescue Daniel and made every effort until sundown to save him.

15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.”

16 So the king gave the order, and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lions’ den. The king said to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, rescue you!”



All throughout his life as a public servant, Daniel was faithful to the government until that fateful moment when he'd had to make a choice between the word of man and the Word of God.


-------------------------------


How can we say our religion has no place in government?


Acts 5
27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!

 

[tosca1]

We are fortunate in this society that we can use our vote to put God-fearing people in power. It is a gift from God. To use that gift the way it was obviously meant to be used, is a Christian duty!

 

[Skeptic Bob]

"Religion belongs in government!"

"Says who?"

"Says my religion!"

 

[Dragonfly]

We are fortunate in this society that we can use our vote to put God-fearing people in power. It is a gift from God.

Prove it.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Tosca,

Please continue to post with the same attitude you have.

The utterly blind refusal to take on board any facts that you don't like. The utter dishonesty etc.

You make the case for Christianity being a bad thing extremely well. Far better than I ever could.

 

[iguanaman]

Tosca,

Please continue to post with the same attitude you have.

The utterly blind refusal to take on board any facts that you don't like. The utter dishonesty etc.

You make the case for Christianity being a bad thing extremely well. Far better than I ever could.

I couldn't agree more. The pro-illegal abortionists do for Christianity what the Taliban and ISIS do for Islam. Their God's are both full of HATE.

 

[Summerwind]

I couldn't agree more. The pro-illegal abortionists do for Christianity what the Taliban and ISIS do for Islam. Their God's are both full of HATE.

May I be so bold as to add... HATE and IGNORANCE.

 

[winston53660]

We are fortunate in this society that we can use our vote to put God-fearing people in power. It is a gift from God. To use that gift the way it was obviously meant to be used, is a Christian duty!

hmm great theocracy:roll:

 

[tosca1]

Gee....you sound like a choral comic relief, or sumthing! :mrgreen:

Okay caballeros, all your knee-jerks drive-by opinion - and awful mis-directed one-liners - are duly noted.
Oh, I forgot, the back-up singer(s) have also been noted.






<singing> we are birds of a feeeeeeeather........!<singing>




Now.....anyone among you enlightened folks actually read the first couple of sentences at all?
Let's see....

Who among you are Christians?

C'mon, raise those hands if you are Christians. C'mon.....don't be shy....

 

[jet57]

To say that, "religion has no place in government," is contrary to the Scriptures. In fact, there is a very significant relationship between government and Christians.

We are expected to obey governmental authorities, and the government is expected to treat its peoples fairly and justly.
Christians are still expected to live up to theirs even if the government had failed to live up to its role.
However, if the government wants the people to do something that is in violation to the command of God, then Christians are expected to disobey that government, and instead place their trust and confidence in God's protection.

WE do not owe allegiance to any ungodly government. Do you think you should if your government is headed by someone like Hitler?

Deliberately murdering the defenseless is not only diabolical, but it is ungodly. Just because man had declared it legal to murder babies, does not make it righteous.
IT WILL NEVER BE RIGHTEOUS IN THE EYES OF GOD.
The diabolical act is further compounded when it is done for selfish reasons, and the pursuit of worldly comforts.



Go to this thread in Religion, "Abortion on Christian Ground".....it illustrates how it's diabolical.

Abortion is like a lasagna - made up of layers of violations against God.

It's not merely a simple act of murder!

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/165071-abortion-christian-grounds.html




When God's will and the government's will come into conflict, our allegiance is to God. This was demonstrated by Daniel, in the Book of Daniel.

Daniel was a faithful public servant in a pagan government, who rose to high level in that government. During his time at the royal court, three of his friends refused to obey the edict to bow before the pagan gods, and had chosen to face death instead.
After the Medes had conquered Babylon, Daniel (who still worked for the government) found himself in a similar dilemma.


Daniel 6
7 All the high officials of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the counselors and the governors are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance and enforce an injunction, that whoever makes petition to any god or man for thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions.

8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing.

10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. 12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”

The king answered, “The decree stands—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

13 Then they said to the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, Your Majesty, or to the decree you put in writing. He still prays three times a day.” 14 When the king heard this, he was greatly distressed; he was determined to rescue Daniel and made every effort until sundown to save him.

15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.”

16 So the king gave the order, and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lions’ den. The king said to Daniel, “May your God, whom you serve continually, rescue you!”



All throughout his life as a public servant, Daniel was faithful to the government until that fateful moment when he'd had to make a choice between the word of man and the Word of God.


-------------------------------


How can we say our religion has no place in government?


Acts 5
27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!

Religion has no place in government because it is contrary to the US constitution. And that is for a very good reason.

 

[tosca1]

Religion has no place in government because it is contrary to the US constitution. And that is for a very good reason.

But Christian religion says it has a place in government! As shown in the Scriptures.

This is not about personal opinion. It is about Scriptural facts. Scriptural facts are not relevant to secularists,
but I'd assume it is to Christians.

Remember how this topic got started ( a discussion between Christians ).


Besides....I don't think your Constitution is devoid of any religious influence, but that is for another thread.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

But Christian religion says it has a place in government! As shown in the Scriptures.

This is not about personal opinion. It is about Scriptural facts. Scriptural facts are not relevant to secularists,
but I'd assume it is to Christians.

Remember how this topic got started ( a discussion between Christians ).


Besides....I don't think your Constitution is devoid of any religious influence, but that is for another thread.

Your scriptural facts are NOT important to CHRISTIANS.

America is over 75% Christian. If this religion belongs in government **** truly meant something, then religion would be in our government.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Religion has no place in government because it is contrary to the US constitution. And that is for a very good reason.

Interesting assertion. Question for you. Do you believe that a politician should attempt to work for the ideals that they believe is good for the country? IE: If a politician runs on the platform of trying to abolish abortion due to his beliefs, and the people vote that person in, should the politician continue to work for those ideals that he/she ran on and the people voted them in for? Or should the politician just stop because you think that his beliefs regarding abortion is based on religion?

These are of course rhetorical questions really. There are a ton of politicians that run with a platform of their religion, and the people continue to vote for them because of it. The Constitution prohibits the government from making laws against or favoring a religion. It does not prohibit laws that have a basis in religion.

*sigh* and yes, before you pull it out, that even includes the Islamic religion if such a politician were ever to be elected.

 

[tosca1]

Your scriptural facts are NOT important to CHRISTIANS.

America is over 75% Christian. If this religion belongs in government **** truly meant something, then religion would be in our government.

I can't say if Scriptural facts are indeed NOT important to CHRISTIANS.
There are other reasons possible why it would seem that way.
Relativism and false teachings may be among the significant reasons.

 

[Lursa]

To say that, "religion has no place in government," is contrary to the Scriptures. In fact, there is a very significant relationship between government and Christians.

Our Constitution and the Founding Fathers clearly stated that no one should be able to force their religious beliefs on anyone else and that individuals should be able to practice their religious beliefs personally.

Hence, there should be no religion involved in US laws or govt at all. In some, many, cases our laws conform to/parallel Christian standards but they can stand alone morally and Constitutionally without religion.

Pretty black and white.

 

[jet57]

Interesting assertion. Question for you. Do you believe that a politician should attempt to work for the ideals that they believe is good for the country? IE: If a politician runs on the platform of trying to abolish abortion due to his beliefs, and the people vote that person in, should the politician continue to work for those ideals that he/she ran on and the people voted them in for? Or should the politician just stop because you think that his beliefs regarding abortion is based on religion?

These are of course rhetorical questions really. There are a ton of politicians that run with a platform of their religion, and the people continue to vote for them because of it. The Constitution prohibits the government from making laws against or favoring a religion. It does not prohibit laws that have a basis in religion.

*sigh* and yes, before you pull it out, that even includes the Islamic religion if such a politician were ever to be elected.

Any politician can run on anything they want and try and pass any bill they want. That is a different scenario from religion having a place (at the table) in government. Western Europe has done that already and that is one of the chief reasons we left that society. If you want religious society then move to a sectarian country. If you don't like their religion, then change it. You'll be right back where you started.

 

[jet57]

But Christian religion says it has a place in government! As shown in the Scriptures.

This is not about personal opinion. It is about Scriptural facts. Scriptural facts are not relevant to secularists,
but I'd assume it is to Christians.

Remember how this topic got started ( a discussion between Christians ).


Besides....I don't think your Constitution is devoid of any religious influence, but that is for another thread.

Islamists believe that religion has a place in government as well and those governments are known as sectarian. It doesn't matter which religion you're talking about. If you believe that religion has a place then go to a sectarian country.

 

[Logicman]

Religion has no place in government because it is contrary to the US constitution. And that is for a very good reason.

Absolute nonsense.

Religious principles are already the foundation of many government acts and laws.

One such example are states that passed a constitutional amendment or laws against same sex marriage.

List of U.S. state constitutional amendments banning same-sex unions by type - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Certainly the legal issue hasn't been settled yet as it awaits a Supreme Court decision.

Christian and other legislators can submit any number of Biblically-based laws. All they need to do is present them in a secular language format and there you go.

And there's nothing you can do about it, jet57, except call up a judge or a legislator to try to shoot it down.

 

[Chagos]

To say that, "religion has no place in government," is contrary to the Scriptures.

to make the scriptures overall governing parameters of law is unconstitutional

............However, if the government wants the people to do something that is in violation to the command of God, then Christians are expected to disobey that government, and instead place their trust and confidence in God's protection.

equivalent to introducing Shariah law and rabbinical courts (which do find lower level appliance) to such an extent that US law is superseded. And equivalent to having those religious parameters superimposed upon those not of same persuasion. That would include Christians.

Unconstitutional.

WE do not owe allegiance to any ungodly government. Do you think you should if your government is headed by someone like Hitler?

An ungodly (no pun intended) analogy.

Deliberately murdering the defenseless is not only diabolical, but it is ungodly. Just because man had declared it legal to murder babies, does not make it righteous.

Confusion of terminology. What society in its majority has declared legal is just that.

Murder itself remains a crime.

IT WILL NEVER BE RIGHTEOUS IN THE EYES OF GOD.
The diabolical act is further compounded when it is done for selfish reasons, and the pursuit of worldly comforts.

assumptions

Go to this thread ........................

Unnecessary.

 

[Chagos]

Interesting assertion. Question for you. Do you believe that a politician should attempt to work for the ideals that they believe is good for the country? IE: If a politician runs on the platform of trying to abolish abortion due to his beliefs, and the people vote that person in, should the politician continue to work for those ideals that he/she ran on and the people voted them in for? Or should the politician just stop because you think that his beliefs regarding abortion is based on religion?

These are of course rhetorical questions really. There are a ton of politicians that run with a platform of their religion, and the people continue to vote for them because of it. The Constitution prohibits the government from making laws against or favoring a religion. It does not prohibit laws that have a basis in religion.

*sigh* and yes, before you pull it out, that even includes the Islamic religion if such a politician were ever to be elected.

Good points methinks.

There's nothing to preclude anyone from making their own conscience (no matter what is it rooted in) the basis of their campaigning and subsequent decisions. With two provisions:

1) getting a majority behind them and, most importantly

2) not being in breach of constitution

That many of the principles governing our laws are "inspired" by Christian values is a given. Occidental culture as a whole is.

 

[Manc Skipper]

But Christian religion says it has a place in government! ...

So what? It would be surprising if it didn't. Excepting that bit about rendering unto Caesar. That doesn't mean it should.

 

[tosca1]

Our Constitution and the Founding Fathers clearly stated that no one should be able to force their religious beliefs on anyone else and that individuals should be able to practice their religious beliefs personally.

Hence, there should be no religion involved in US laws or govt at all. In some, many, cases our laws conform to/parallel Christian standards but they can stand alone morally and Constitutionally without religion.

Pretty black and white.

That's you, talking from a secular or non-Christian standpoint.

Anyway, the Scriptures teaches about fairness and being just - so yes, we aren't supposed to force non-believers to embrace our beliefs.
This is not about converting people to Christianity. This is about saving babies that are being murdered.

Science had declared that the fetus is a human being. Human life begins at conception! Therefore, on that basis alone - it's indeed an act of murder to abort a child.
On that basis alone, it should be able to firmly stand morally alone!

However, as we've seen in history - the truth can easily be manipulated. Thus we saw the likes of Hitler and slavers, who sold the idea that Jews and blacks were not human. We're doing the same to the fetus.

Now, some are selling the idea that the offspring of a human male and a human female is not human.....until it reaches a certain criteria! How crazy is that?
It's not as if every pro-choice individual is dumb - it's because it's easier to accept the killing of a non-human.
In an attempt to remove the humanity from a fetus, you see these pro-choice activists spouting off the term "zygotes," instead of fetus..... like as if it's a common way to call the baby!


The founding fathers did not endorse abortion! Why was it illegal for so long if they intended for women to have that so-called right?

 

[Somerville]

That's you, talking from a secular or non-Christian standpoint.

Anyway, the Scriptures teaches about fairness and being just - so yes, we aren't supposed to force non-believers to embrace our beliefs.
This is not about converting people to Christianity. This is about saving babies that are being murdered. Science had declared that the fetus is a human being. Human life begins at conception! Therefore, on that basis alone - it's indeed an act of murder to abort a child.

The founding fathers did not endorse abortion! Why was it illegal for so long if they intended for women to have that so-called right?

When the Constitution was created in the 18th C. there were no safe methods for abortion. Abortions were performed, usually by swallowing various herbal potions, some of which could be traced back to ancient Greece and Egypt. As late as the 12th C. the Church saw early abortions as simple misdemeanors.

Once it was medically possible, abortion was outlawed because men controlled the government AND the lives of women.

 

[tosca1]

[/B] In some, many, cases our laws conform to/parallel Christian standards but they can stand alone morally and Constitutionally without religion.

It's because they parallel Christian values.....that's why they can stand alone morally!

Where do you think objective moral standards came from? GOD!

 

[jet57]

Absolute nonsense.

Religious principles are already the foundation of many government acts and laws.

One such example are states that passed a constitutional amendment or laws against same sex marriage.

List of U.S. state constitutional amendments banning same-sex unions by type - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Certainly the legal issue hasn't been settled yet as it awaits a Supreme Court decision.

Christian and other legislators can submit any number of Biblically-based laws. All they need to do is present them in a secular language format and there you go.

And there's nothing you can do about it, jet57, except call up a judge or a legislator to try to shoot it down.

I said that already in post #16:

Any politician can run on anything they want and try and pass any bill they want. That is a different scenario from religion having a place (at the table) in government. Western Europe has done that already and that is one of the chief reasons we left that society. If you want religious society then move to a sectarian country. If you don't like their religion, then change it. You'll be right back where you started.

Reading is fundamental.