• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Cause of 9/11

Billo_Really

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I think I have just stumbled upon the biggest reason 9/11 happened. The reason why we are so hated by others, that they chose to fly planes into our buildings. I have always stated that you have to have a real hate-on to do something like that. There's not to many things that drive people to that level of hate. And the following link, shows one of those things that does. This is why it happened. This is the root of hatred that Islamist fanaticism harbors towards the US. This is the reason, along with the issue with Israel, for the hatred toward the west.

In order to stop another 9/11 from happening, we first must use our electoral process to clean house. That is the only way to stop this insanity. We ain't gonna get it done with American arrogance, bombs and bullshit.

Some people say that ME children are raised to hate us. If that is true, this link is the reason those parents chose to teach it.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Some people say that ME children are raised to hate us. If that is true, this link is the reason those parents chose to teach it.
Some people = me.

Put it into your words for us Billo. I can go to links all day. I'd rather view them through the eyes of those on this site, while on this site that is. In other words, any of us can get ideas everywhere, but I like to see how those of us here in our little DP world interpret such things. If that makes sense. Read; I'm just friggin lazy, but then you know that.

Here's my guess.

Islam.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
I think I have just stumbled upon the biggest reason 9/11 happened. The reason why we are so hated by others, that they chose to fly planes into our buildings. I have always stated that you have to have a real hate-on to do something like that. There's not to many things that drive people to that level of hate. And the following link, shows one of those things that does. This is why it happened. This is the root of hatred that Islamist fanaticism harbors towards the US. This is the reason, along with the issue with Israel, for the hatred toward the west.

In order to stop another 9/11 from happening, we first must use our electoral process to clean house. That is the only way to stop this insanity. We ain't gonna get it done with American arrogance, bombs and bullshit.

Some people say that ME children are raised to hate us. If that is true, this link is the reason those parents chose to teach it.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html
You don't actually believe that **** do you billo?
 

Billo_Really

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus:
You don't actually believe that **** do you billo?
Every f_cking word. Although I would rather not. And would just love it if someone could post up some proof that refutes most of whats said. Some things I know for a fact are true because I remember when they happened. Other things I know is true because I see and hear it every day. The last thing I want to think is that we brought this hate on ourselves.

With that being said, I still condemn the way those people delt with their hatred. Just because your angry at us is no reason to be flying planes into our buildings. If we could figure out how to diffuse this anger, we wouldn't have to have a perpetual war with no clear ending or enemy. But our revolution is through the electoral process. One man, one vote. That's our system. Which does work. That's how we can make things better. Going around singing, "We'll put a boot in your ass" or "Were god-damn Americans" is not the road to go down if you want to diffuse anger.
 

Billo_Really

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by teacher:
Some people = me.

Put it into your words for us Billo. I can go to links all day. I'd rather view them through the eyes of those on this site, while on this site that is. In other words, any of us can get ideas everywhere, but I like to see how those of us here in our little DP world interpret such things. If that makes sense. Read; I'm just friggin lazy, but then you know that.

Here's my guess.

Islam.
I've had quite a bit to say about this in the majority of my bouts with Gunny. But in the interests of time (and to save you a walk), I will give a brief summary.

I've never played the victim. I always look at the world around me as objectively as I can. I have prejudices like everyone else. But one thing I'm consistant with is calling things as I see them without outside influence. Even though I post things from websites, I decide what I consider to be relevent. And I decide how much weight that relevance is. I post things to also show that I'm not making anything up. I have reasons to believe what I believe. And if information comes in (as a rebuttal for example) that makes me rethink a position, I got no problems admitting I'm wrong and moving on with it. Gunny would call this a flip-flop. I don't really care what he calls it. My position is not his call. With that being said...

The one thing that has bothered me since that day is the lack of effort or discussion into what would be the driving factors that produce that level of hate. That's a lot of hate that flys suicide missions on skyscrapers. And it had to come from somewhere. Gunny broke this down to islamic fanaticism and its inherrent hatred of the west. But I can't blame an entire sect of religion as the problem at the causal level. I think that is the symptom of the problem. Not its genisis. And you should know, in order to solve a problem, you have to get to its roots. Algebra taught us this. I always hated those word problems (solve x in terms of y). But they are good calistentics for logical pragmatic deduction.

So since I do not play the victim, I am forced to always look at my role in causing what happens in the world around me. Everything that happens to me I am responsible for to some degree. I have a hand in whatever happens in my life. So going a little macro with this, everything that happens to us as a country, we have to take some responsibility for. We need to look at just what we have done, that contributed to the situation or event. Or at least be willing to consider those possibities. By flat out denying that it is absurd, and that we have done nothing wrong, is lessoning our ability evaluate the contributing factors and draw conclusions on how to proceed. Simply put, we are lying to ourselves.

So looking at this objectively, these people that hate America, have reasons why they hate so much. Putting the shoe on the other foot and looking at it from their perspective in order to understand their motives, realizing that understanding someones point of view is not the same as agreeing with it, then it is logical to assume that a combination of our foreign policy of supporting tyrannical dictators in Iran with the Shah, Samoza in central America, our CIA in Chile, this obscene arrogance we have as a nation (I'm a god-damn American), the complete hypocrisy of our actions and the disdain we have for anyone that doesn't see things our way, and as the last straw on the camels back, the entire world looks at this sh_t that is being done in our name and with our tax dollars by our elected officials all the while not seeing Americans not doing anything about it, I can see how they get their hate.

I believe we have the best model for a system of government. But we are certainly no angels. And we certainly do no wrong. The best thing we can do is clean our own house starting with the 2006 elections. I don't care who gets in office, as long as they do their job. And their job is representing their constituants, which is us. Not some f_cking corporation that doesn't pay income tax and has the same rights as a living breathing human being, but with a lot more capitol to influence politicians.

The one thing I do know about Americans that is an absolute good, is that when we collectively get a hair up our ass, we do something about it. Things start happening. We take action. This country is a bunch of doers. When were motivated.

Now that Nick and Jessica broke up, maybe we can find our mojo?
 
Last edited:

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
You don't actually believe that **** do you billo?
It's not a question of whether or not to believe it. The things he talks about are common knowledge. It is a question of whether you believe such things can be done for a greater good. I say NO. It is a question of perception. I've had discussions with people on this forum who do not hesitate a yes.

I believe that actions in one's own interest always come back around to kick your ass. Now will I say that our past actions are directly the cause of 9/11. No. But have our actions created a pattern of unavoidable collective bad karma? Yes.
 
Last edited:

Billo_Really

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by mixedmedia:
It's not a question of whether or not to believe it. The things he talks about are common knowledge. It is a question of whether you believe such things can be done for a greater good. It is a question of perception.

I say no. I believe that actions in one's own interest always come back around to kick your ass. Now will I say that our past actions are directly the cause of 9/11. No. But have our actions created a pattern of unavoidable collective bad karma? Yes.
What you say is true. I'm a big believer in karma. I try not to live my life at someone else's expense. But I do. From time to time. I think the key is being aware of not lying to oneself. Yes, we are partly responsible for creating the hatred people have for us. No, it's not all our fault. Yes, we are no angels and have spread our own version of terror throughout the world. No, we are not a great satan nation. Yes, we have committed atrocities recently. No, were not all bad. We do a lot of good as well. Yes, we have done many things we should be condemned for. No, we have not done anything that would justify skyjacking our planes and flying them into our buildings. Yes, our government isn't the best at the moment. No, were not going to let it continue.

The point is that there are many factors that contribute to the situation were in. However, we can only change ourselves. We cannot change others. They will have to work on that on their end. Hopefully they will. Hopefully we do. It will be one less problem to solve.
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Billo_Really said:
What you say is true. I'm a big believer in karma. I try not to live my life at someone else's expense. But I do. From time to time. I think the key is being aware of not lying to oneself. Yes, we are partly responsible for creating the hatred people have for us. No, it's not all our fault. Yes, we are no angels and have spread our own version of terror throughout the world. No, we are not a great satan nation. Yes, we have committed atrocities recently. No, were not all bad. We do a lot of good as well. Yes, we have done many things we should be condemned for. No, we have not done anything that would justify skyjacking our planes and flying them into our buildings. Yes, our government isn't the best at the moment. No, were not going to let it continue.

The point is that there are many factors that contribute to the situation were in. However, we can only change ourselves. We cannot change others. They will have to work on that on their end. Hopefully they will. Hopefully we do. It will be one less problem to solve.
Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.

Choices are to keep the blinders on and keep making the same mistakes. Or open your eyes, accept and do what you can within your limited powers to make a difference, aka, voting and utilizing your constitutional right to free speech. And for me, passing on the importance of caring to my kids. I am still optimistic that we will come out of this current cycle as partners in a better world. America is far from the only nation responsible for its share of meddling at a cost to the innocent. I believe the good will eventually outweigh the bad. We just have to accept the realities, all of them, and keep on keeping on.
 

Billo_Really

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by mixedmedia:
Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.

Choices are to keep the blinders on and keep making the same mistakes. Or open your eyes, accept and do what you can within your limited powers to make a difference, aka, voting and utilizing your constitutional right to free speech. And for me, passing on the importance of caring to my kids. I am still optimistic that we will come out of this current cycle as partners in a better world. America is far from the only nation responsible for its share of meddling at a cost to the innocent. I believe the good will eventually outweigh the bad. We just have to accept the realities, all of them, and keep on keeping on.
I completely agree. I don't like pointing out negative aspects about my country. But I do so knowing full well that is not the only thing my country is about. If your going to accept the accolades, then you have to be willing to accept the criticism. They are flip sides of the same coin.
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Billo_Really said:
They are flip sides of the same coin.
And so it goes, just like the rivers flow :2wave:
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mixedmedia said:
Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.

Choices are to keep the blinders on and keep making the same mistakes. Or open your eyes, accept and do what you can within your limited powers to make a difference, aka, voting and utilizing your constitutional right to free speech. And for me, passing on the importance of caring to my kids. I am still optimistic that we will come out of this current cycle as partners in a better world. America is far from the only nation responsible for its share of meddling at a cost to the innocent. I believe the good will eventually outweigh the bad. We just have to accept the realities, all of them, and keep on keeping on.
This guy who Billo sited wasn't pointing out America's mistakes he was likening us to Nazi Germany and calling for Tony Blair and President Bush to stand trial for war crimes, it's good to know where the Dems in this country really place their allegiance and it sure as hell isn't with the U.S.
 

ashurbanipal

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
7,030
Reaction score
2,051
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
This guy who Billo sited wasn't pointing out America's mistakes he was likening us to Nazi Germany and calling for Tony Blair and President Bush to stand trial for war crimes, it's good to know where the Dems in this country really place their allegiance and it sure as hell isn't with the U.S.
1) Tony Blair isn't even an American, so leave him out of it
2) Bush and America aren't equal--it's possible to despise one and love the other. I know plenty of conservatives who hated Clinton and thought he ought to go to prison all the while likening America to Communist Russia. Are they to have their allegiance questioned?
3) What's wrong with hating America anyway? There seem to be some good reasons to do so.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
ashurbanipal said:
1) Tony Blair isn't even an American, so leave him out of it
2) Bush and America aren't equal--it's possible to despise one and love the other. I know plenty of conservatives who hated Clinton and thought he ought to go to prison all the while likening America to Communist Russia. Are they to have their allegiance questioned?
3) What's wrong with hating America anyway? There seem to be some good reasons to do so.

Well good for you, this is like saying that Clinton should have been brought up on war crimes for his actions in Kosovo I would never in my life would have supported that, this deliberate act of double speak is sickening instead of holding the true genocidal maniac Saddam accountable you people want to turn it around on Bush for getting rid of that piece of ****, first off the U.N. authorized force in resolution 1441, secondly this guys statements are ludicrous in the extreme he mixes a little bit of fact with alot of fiction to make his case, I spotted atleast 20 inaccurate statements and a slew of outright lies, I really don't feel like breaking that long and boring load of Bullshit down into bits and pieces and explaining in detail why that guy is full ofshit if you believe it that's because you have already made your mind up about America and I doubt that me explaining to you the facts of the matter will change your opinion anyways.

It seems to me that this guy would have been happy if the U.S. lost the Cold War, it's funny, now that the socialist academic eggheads have been proven wrong about the Soviet Union and socialism through the lessons of history the only recourse now left open to them is to rewrite that history. Chew on that a while.
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
This guy who Billo sited wasn't pointing out America's mistakes he was likening us to Nazi Germany and calling for Tony Blair and President Bush to stand trial for war crimes, it's good to know where the Dems in this country really place their allegiance and it sure as hell isn't with the U.S.
I don't have to agree with every word Harold Pinter says to appreciate the sentiment of his speech. If you would drop your bias for a second, maybe you could learn something. There are people the world over who feel strongly about the moral and legal legitimacy of this war. Maybe if your confidence is strong enough, you can ponder this reality for even a split second without having your sensibilities offended. As we know so well, we have people in this country who don't give a second thought to killing a person who has been convicted of murder. If you take American partisan politics out of it, are the degrees of separation really that steep?
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mixedmedia said:
I don't have to agree with every word Harold Pinter says to appreciate the sentiment of his speech. If you would drop your bias for a second, maybe you could learn something. There are people the world over who feel strongly about the moral and legal legitimacy of this war. Maybe if your confidence is strong enough, you can ponder this reality for even a split second without having your sensibilities offended. As we know so well, we have people in this country who don't give a second thought to killing a person who has been convicted of murder. If you take American partisan politics out of it, are the degrees of separation really that steep?
BIAS???!!!! You've got to be kidding me his entire statement was biased. What the hell does the death penalty for a quadruple murderer have to do with bringing Bush up on charges of crimes against humanity???!!!

Your bias towards our president blinds you from the incredible insanity and danger of this mans statements, I can't believe that not only are you people defending this guy you're actually agreeing with him, this proves my point that the Democrats have morphed into a blame America first, anti-capitalist, pro-communist, anti-Democracy, pro-tyrant, party.

Zell Miller was right about yall. ;)
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
BIAS???!!!! You've got to be kidding me his entire statement was biased. What the hell does the death penalty for a quadruple murderer have to do with bringing Bush up on charges of crimes against humanity???!!!

Your bias towards our president blinds you from the incredible insanity and danger of this mans statements, I can't believe that not only are you people defending this guy you're actually agreeing with him, this proves my point that the Democrats have morphed into a blame America first, anti-capitalist, pro-communist, anti-Democracy, pro-tyrant, party.

Zell Miller was right about yall. ;)
You have interpreted my statements pitifully. You know, Trajan, our president has very little to do with this. It is much bigger than that. If you want to talk about it, great. If you just want to bandy around the same old bullshit then wait around, I'm sure somebody'll come along soon.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mixedmedia said:
You have interpreted my statements pitifully. You know, Trajan, our president has very little to do with this. It is much bigger than that. If you want to talk about it, great. If you just want to bandy around the same old bullshit then wait around, I'm sure somebody'll come along soon.
Dude the whole point of this guys statements is that he wants Bush and Blair brought up on charges of war crimes, how do you figure that the president the issue here?
 

mixedmedia

iniquitably employed
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
6,823
Reaction score
373
Location
Naples, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Dude the whole point of this guys statements is that he wants Bush and Blair brought up on charges of war crimes, how do you figure that the president the issue here?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not the whole point. That is all you will see because of your own bias. To sum up Pinter's entire speech as simply an anti-Bush tirade...Trajan man it is intellectually small. If you really have faith in your convictions then you should be able to acknowledge the path that leads people to other convictions without being reactionary. It is not his only point. His point is much bigger than that.
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
mixedmedia said:
Being aware of lying to oneself, yes. It perpetuates the mistakes. There is a really sad tendency in America to resist owning up to our mistakes as a nation - as if to do so belies a sense of self-loathing, aka, anti-Americanism. Funny in light of the emphasis placed on personal responsibility by many of the same folks.
I agree. It is pride, or more like arrogance. Particularly ironic for this Administration, lead by a man who campaigned on a foreign policy of humbleness.

"If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us; if we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us. And our nation stands alone right now in the world in terms of power, and that's why we've got to be humble, and yet project strength in a way that promotes freedom." Bush, 10-12-00

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec00/for-policy_10-12.html

A couple other interesting quotes from that debate:

I'm worried about over committing our military around the world. I want to be judicious in its use. You mentioned Haiti. I wouldn't have sent troops to Haiti. I didn't think it was a mission worthwhile. It was a nation building mission. And it was not very successful. It cost us a couple billions of dollars and I'm not sure democracy is any better off in Haiti than it was before.

I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it's got to be. We can help. And maybe it's just our difference in government, the way we view government. I mean I want to empower people. I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don't think it's the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you.
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
mixedmedia said:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not the whole point. That is all you will see because of your own bias. To sum up Pinter's entire speech as simply an anti-Bush tirade...Trajan man it is intellectually small. If you really have faith in your convictions then you should be able to acknowledge the path that leads people to other convictions without being reactionary. It is not his only point. His point is much bigger than that.
Pinter's speech was biased, I agree. But a lot of the stuff is accurate. The US does have a history of supporting reprehensible dictators when it thinks it is in its interest. The moral of the story is if we are determined to throw our power around unilaterally, even if made with good intent, it makes us responsible for the consequences of the action when it doesn't go as planned or if mistakes were made.

Same is true for Iraq. Even if (a big if) we decided to go to war with the best intentions, mistakes were made. 2000+ Americans and some 80,000 Iraqis are dead because we decided to start this war. Some say, well, Hussein was a bad guy and killed lots of Iraqis. That was blood on his hands. Our president decided to make war -- now the blood is on our hands.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mixedmedia said:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is not the whole point. That is all you will see because of your own bias. To sum up Pinter's entire speech as simply an anti-Bush tirade...Trajan man it is intellectually small. If you really have faith in your convictions then you should be able to acknowledge the path that leads people to other convictions without being reactionary. It is not his only point. His point is much bigger than that.
O.K. I'm sorry it was an anti-Bush, anti-American, anti-west, pro-terrorist, tirade.

Does that sum it up clearly enough?
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Iriemon said:
Pinter's speech was biased, I agree. But a lot of the stuff is accurate. The US does have a history of supporting reprehensible dictators when it thinks it is in its interest. The moral of the story is if we are determined to throw our power around unilaterally, even if made with good intent, it makes us responsible for the consequences of the action when it doesn't go as planned or if mistakes were made.

Same is true for Iraq. Even if (a big if) we decided to go to war with the best intentions, mistakes were made. 2000+ Americans and some 80,000 Iraqis are dead because we decided to start this war. Some say, well, Hussein was a bad guy and killed lots of Iraqis. That was blood on his hands. Our president decided to make war -- now the blood is on our hands.
lol well I'd have to say that the Iraqis are happy that we took out Saddam and with their chance at freedom and Democracy.
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
lol well I'd have to say that the Iraqis are happy that we took out Saddam and with their chance at freedom and Democracy.
You reckon the scores of thousands Iraqis who have lost mothers dads brothers and sisters sons and daughters because of Bush's war are pretty happy? How about the scores of thousands permanently maimed? Ecstatic, probalby. And I'm sure they are thrilled with the Bush's great strategy of fighting terrorist in their country, instead of ours, so that it is their people and buildings that are getting blown up. Not to mention I'm sure they are happy to be bombed and invaded by an infidel foreign country and occupied by their soldiers. Who wouldn't be overjoyed with that. I mean, if the ME coalition invaded America and took out Bush, and occupied our country, wouldn't that make everyone joyful?
 

ashurbanipal

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
7,030
Reaction score
2,051
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Well good for you, this is like saying that Clinton should have been brought up on war crimes for his actions in Kosovo I would never in my life would have supported that, this deliberate act of double speak is sickening instead of holding the true genocidal maniac Saddam accountable you people want to turn it around on Bush for getting rid of that piece of ****
Well, it actually turns out that Iran was responsible for the use of gas on the Kurds. Then again, Saddam was (and is) a bad guy. That doesn't excuse our own conduct--for one thing, there are plenty of worse rulers that we don't seem to give a damn about.

first off the U.N. authorized force in resolution 1441, secondly this guys statements are ludicrous in the extreme he mixes a little bit of fact with alot of fiction to make his case, I spotted atleast 20 inaccurate statements and a slew of outright lies,
Actually, I didn't really read what he had to say. It looked like crap to me, but that's not the point. There are quite a number of legitimate reasons that people abroad don't like America (the conduct of our corporations being prime among them). My question was why hating America for wrongful and heinous actions it has undertaken or at least turned a blind eye to is bad. Why is it?

I really don't feel like breaking that long and boring load of Bullshit down into bits and pieces and explaining in detail why that guy is full ofshit if you believe it that's because you have already made your mind up about America and I doubt that me explaining to you the facts of the matter will change your opinion anyways.
I try to have as many of the facts as possible before forming an opinion, but if you have anything that I might have missed, I would beg to hear it.

It seems to me that this guy would have been happy if the U.S. lost the Cold War,
Things being as they were and are, there could have been no good resolution to the Cold War. It's kind of like asking someone to choose between the sewage from New York or Hong Kong for their soup course.

it's funny, now that the socialist academic eggheads have been proven wrong about the Soviet Union and socialism through the lessons of history the only recourse now left open to them is to rewrite that history. Chew on that a while.
Which socialist accademic eggheads do you refer to? And why the tacit assumption that Russia represents a socialist utopia, as opposed to, say, Denmark or Norway (where within a socialist system democracy is also practiced and personal liberty is respected)?
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
ashurbanipal said:
Well, it actually turns out that Iran was responsible for the use of gas on the Kurds. Then again, Saddam was (and is) a bad guy. That doesn't excuse our own conduct--for one thing, there are plenty of worse rulers that we don't seem to give a damn about.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
uh you're misinformed, haven't you heard of the mass graves???

Actually, I didn't really read what he had to say. It looked like crap to me, but that's not the point. There are quite a number of legitimate reasons that people abroad don't like America (the conduct of our corporations being prime among them). My question was why hating America for wrongful and heinous actions it has undertaken or at least turned a blind eye to is bad. Why is it?

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
If you haven't read it then why are you commenting on it?
I try to have as many of the facts as possible before forming an opinion, but if you have anything that I might have missed, I would beg to hear it.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
but you didn't even read the speech so how could you have caught any of the lies in it?
Things being as they were and are, there could have been no good resolution to the Cold War. It's kind of like asking someone to choose between the sewage from New York or Hong Kong for their soup course.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No it's like asking what you would rather have freedom or dictatorship.
Which socialist accademic eggheads do you refer to?

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Just about everyone of them that I've seen open their mouths.
And why the tacit assumption that Russia represents a socialist utopia, as opposed to, say, Denmark or Norway (where within a socialist system democracy is also practiced and personal liberty is respected)?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
The Soviet Union represented the purest form of socialism, that's how, as for Denmark and Norway they aren't actually socialists they are what is known as social Democrats it's called the third way and in actuality there economies are weak and throughout the majority of the Social Democratic dominated countries unemployment is up, inflation is rampant, and growth is stagnant.
 
Top Bottom