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The case for income inequality

Collectively, the employees must decide that amongst themselves and negotiate it with their employer.

You are thinking of unions and collective bargaining etc, which you will never get as a retail worker,

So barring some miracle, who gets to determine your fair wage?
 
That's a fair, and far more complicated question. There are plenty of possibilities, but leaving it to stockholders and their representatives is clearly not it. Society, generally, with help from economists can do a fairly good job (that's where the $15/hour "living wage" standard came from). Governments have been doing it for decades, with minimum wage laws, prevailing wage laws and the like. (FAIR Labor Standards Act? Anyone?) Unions, too, have been pretty good at sussing out "fair" wages for their members - they understand industry/labor values often far better than management. Personally, I support a combination of these.

Unions, I think, have a purpose, or rather still have a purpose, they were absolutely needed at the turn of the century,

Now, I've seen them be reasons why companies shut down, I think it resides in the management of that union etc.

But doesn't the marketplace act as a better determiner for wages? IE. If a business is hiring people, and they are advertising a starting wage of $7.00 an hour, if no one says yes, or agrees to it, the business has really two options, raise the wage, or have whoever is there now, take on more responsibility....agreed?
 
I don't care about advancement, I want myself and my co-workers to be paid fairly for the work we do NOW.

Then you most definitely belong in a collective bargaining situation. I was never a we person. i considered myself way better than the we. I also felt I was worth way more than the we. i took steps to get it.
 
Then you most definitely belong in a collective bargaining situation. I was never a we person. i considered myself way better than the we. I also felt I was worth way more than the we. i took steps to get it.

I'm not arrogant enough to consider myself a better person because of how much money I make. I consider myself a better person because of how I treat other human beings. Part of that involves advocating for more than just myself. And even if my check was solid gold I still would. Because I AM better.
 
Collectively, the employees must decide that amongst themselves and negotiate it with their employer.

That's the way unions want it to work. That's not the way I chose. That decision was between me and my prospective employer.
 
You are thinking of unions and collective bargaining etc, which you will never get as a retail worker,

So barring some miracle, who gets to determine your fair wage?

Never huh? Did you miss the Stop and Shop strike of 30,000 retail workers? A successful strike I might add. All it takes is a little mass mobilization.
 
I'm not arrogant enough to consider myself a better person because of how much money I make. I consider myself a better person because of how I treat other human beings. Part of that involves advocating for more than just myself. And even if my check was solid gold I still would. Because I AM better.

It's not because of how much money....mainly it's because at least on my end, because I do more work, I stay longer, do more, take more ****, and still get **** done, I deserve to get paid more than the clown who slacks off half the shift and is on his phone the other half.

Agree or no?
 
I'm not arrogant enough to consider myself a better person because of how much money I make. I consider myself a better person because of how I treat other human beings. Part of that involves advocating for more than just myself. And even if my check was solid gold I still would. Because I AM better.

I was not talking about a better person. I was talking about a better employee. And a better negotiator.
 
That's the way unions want it to work. That's not the way I chose. That decision was between me and my prospective employer.

If you can get all you need that way go for it. But for the bulk of workers, collective bargaining is much more effective. Many workers have more power than one.
 
Never huh? Did you miss the Stop and Shop strike of 30,000 retail workers? A successful strike I might add. All it takes is a little mass mobilization.

They already HAD a union.....UFCW, and if you think that Stop and Shop employs 30,000 RETAIL WORKERS...I don't know what to tell you,

But tell you what, let's try it out, go to your local mall, talk to all the retail employees there...and see how many want to join a union, to promote better pay, health care etc.....let me know how it ends.
 
Cool story bro

Back in the real world, almost every economist recognizes that income inequality is part and parcel of market economies and capitalism. Having some income inequality is generally regarded as positive. The problem is that income inequality is rising, with numerous detrimental effects. In particular, it tilts the political system in favor of the ultra-wealthy who have massive stockpiles of cash to throw at politicians. To put it mildly, the policy goals of billionaires is vastly different than the typical American who is just struggling to get by, thus it drives the government away from policies the public actually wants. (See Billionaires and Stealth Politics for a fuller explanation of that phenomena.)

It also means that the overwhelming number of consumers don't share in the gains, which alienates them from the political, economic and social systems. One result is a disaffected populist public that votes incompetent morons into office because they "like their style" (e.g. Berlusconi). A second is that the high levels of inequality negatively impact growth rates. When 99% of your customers can't afford your products, and when the top 1% have so much money that having more doesn't result in them spending more, then the economy suffers.

In fact, all of these issues give fuel to exactly the kind of revolutions he objects to -- e.g. the rise of Communism in the Gilded Age, and anarchism in the 1920s and 1930s... If you don't want a socialist uprising, then you should take steps to mitigate increases in income inequality.


As to his claims? Surprise! Income inequality did not rise between 1970 and 2019 because a handful of people (mostly white men) became 500 times more brilliant and productive than their predecessors. It's because they lobbied to change the tax code and corporate laws to their advantage. (Or, in his terms, the math of Price's Law did not change since 1970.)

To put this another way: Bill Gates is definitely more productive than the average American. Is he 1,355,263 times more productive than the average American? Obviously not, especially since he stepped down as CEO of Microsoft and became a full-time philanthropist over 10 years ago.

As to "financial services?" Most of that class are rentiers. Whatever value they do add as a class, they typically detract by creating financial instabilities in sectors, nations and global systems. We can't live without finance, but listening to some finance dude spout off with his rationalizations about how he and his buddies deserve their high pay because they're so much more productive than the Hoi Polloi is not persuasive... unless you were already looking for a reason to ignore income inequality in the first place.

His claims don't bother to deal with the role of inheritance. The US has eroded estate taxes for decades, and this obviously exacerbates income inequality. And no, those inheritors rarely did anything to enhance their own productivity.

So, spare us the biased claims of a financier who hasn't bothered to understand the basic problems of the increases in income inequality.
Thanks for the usual far left "Nuh-uh" word-wall. Goin' for the old "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" argument, eh?
 
If you can get all you need that way go for it. But for the bulk of workers, collective bargaining is much more effective. Many workers have more power than one.

i did.

Collective bargain works for some. For me not at all.
 
I don't care about advancement, I want myself and my co-workers to be paid fairly for the work we do NOW.
Do you get paid less than employees doing similar work elsewhere? Fair doesn't mean what makes you happy, it means your wage is competitive with workers with similar skills and experience doing similar work.
 
Unions, I think, have a purpose, or rather still have a purpose, they were absolutely needed at the turn of the century,

Now, I've seen them be reasons why companies shut down, I think it resides in the management of that union etc.

But doesn't the marketplace act as a better determiner for wages? IE. If a business is hiring people, and they are advertising a starting wage of $7.00 an hour, if no one says yes, or agrees to it, the business has really two options, raise the wage, or have whoever is there now, take on more responsibility....agreed?

I'm not aware of any union that was "the reason" a company shut down. I mean that sincerely, if you have an example, I'm open to persuasion. I will say, though, that corporations have made that claim, but it is invariably the fact that the corporation is lying to cover for mismanagement or to seek leverage in negotiations. I've had the opportunity to be on both sides of that equation - mostly on the management side, honestly.

You ask, though, "But doesn't the marketplace act as a better determiner for wages?" Which, again, is a fair question, but my answer is an emphatic "No!" I say that not as an idealogue, but as a pragmatist. Here's my reasoning:

First, empirically we can see that it hasn't worked for the last 40 years (at least). Wages have remained essentially stagnant since the 1970s while productivity and profits have grown substantially. How could that be so if wages were market driven? Which gets to my second point, and that is there is no such thing as a general "labor market", but thousands of discrete "marketplaces" with competing and specific needs and circumstances. A laid off steel worker cannot just pick up a new skillset in a different industry, and may never "qualify". Instead, they'll be competing against differently skilled individuals in different "markets". That friction is rarely mentioned in most economic models. Further, a "market" is generally described as a meeting of "equals" who have generally similar information when agreeing on a "fair" deal. Labor seldom, if ever, works that way, which is why unions were born in the first place - to try to create some parity. Corporations have always had the upper hand, and that is even more true in the current environment. In the 50s-60s, government was closer to the side of workers and using its influence on their behalf (e.g., FLRA, NLRB, OSHA). I think it is beyond peradventure to say the reverse is now true.
 
I'm not aware of any union that was "the reason" a company shut down. I mean that sincerely, if you have an example, I'm open to persuasion. I will say, though, that corporations have made that claim, but it is invariably the fact that the corporation is lying to cover for mismanagement or to seek leverage in negotiations. I've had the opportunity to be on both sides of that equation - mostly on the management side, honestly.

You ask, though, "But doesn't the marketplace act as a better determiner for wages?" Which, again, is a fair question, but my answer is an emphatic "No!" I say that not as an idealogue, but as a pragmatist. Here's my reasoning:

First, empirically we can see that it hasn't worked for the last 40 years (at least). Wages have remained essentially stagnant since the 1970s while productivity and profits have grown substantially. How could that be so if wages were market driven? Which gets to my second point, and that is there is no such thing as a general "labor market", but thousands of discrete "marketplaces" with competing and specific needs and circumstances. A laid off steel worker cannot just pick up a new skillset in a different industry, and may never "qualify". Instead, they'll be competing against differently skilled individuals in different "markets". That friction is rarely mentioned in most economic models. Further, a "market" is generally described as a meeting of "equals" who have generally similar information when agreeing on a "fair" deal. Labor seldom, if ever, works that way, which is why unions were born in the first place - to try to create some parity. Corporations have always had the upper hand, and that is even more true in the current environment. In the 50s-60s, government was closer to the side of workers and using its influence on their behalf (e.g., FLRA, NLRB, OSHA). I think it is beyond peradventure to say the reverse is now true.

High above market wages have caused companies and whole industries to shut down. Quick off the top of my head, Light bulbs. TW's, cell phones, most clothing. The small city of Mt Airy, NC once boasted 200 textile manufacturers. Now there are 5, and they distribute, not manufacture. Lower costs of doing business, which includes labor, have absolutely caused companies to relocate. It makes business sense.

You're attempting to equate the labor market with profit. The two are only marginally related. Labor competes with other labor. Profit competes with its competition. They interact only when labor increases result in a noncompetitive cost of goods sold vs product demand. Then something must give.
 
I came across this piece while following links on another topic. It so concisely and accurately describes points I've tried to make repeatedly on why income inequality occurs and why it's not a catastrophe in the making.




So, if you're one of those "square root" of most productive employees you get the big bucks. If you are a drudge you get cost of inflation raises, if you're luck.


I think the author makes a great point on how different economic systems handles the "square-rooters".
As he says "let them have their mansions". :cool:


The above story is from Intellectual Take out

(from Media Bias/Fact Check)

Intellectual Takeout
Has this Media Source failed a fact check?
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.
Overall, this is a think tank that is strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and mixed factually due to poor source selection.



Always good to know where material comes from .
 
Then you most definitely belong in a collective bargaining situation. I was never a we person. i considered myself way better than the we. I also felt I was worth way more than the we. i took steps to get it.




“It must be wonderful to be you and know that you alone have shaped yourself. It must be even more wonderful for other people, your mother and even God, to know that. It absolves them of a terrible responsibility.”
― jayne bauling, Matching Pair
 
Then you most definitely belong in a collective bargaining situation. I was never a we person. i considered myself way better than the we. I also felt I was worth way more than the we. i took steps to get it.

I think you posted in the wrong thread. I think this post belongs in the Dunning-Kruger thread.
 
The above story is from Intellectual Take out

(from Media Bias/Fact Check)

Intellectual Takeout
Has this Media Source failed a fact check?
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.
Overall, this is a think tank that is strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and mixed factually due to poor source selection.



Always good to know where material comes from .
So, a generic, "here be conservatives" review. :eek: BFD.
 
A little income disparity is a motivator and a leveller to an extent. Too much just means the bosses are hoarding profits and undervaluing workers.
 
So, a generic, "here be conservatives" review. :eek: BFD.



Nope, just a reader friendly source review since you didn't offer it to the general readership.

Actually it probably isn't necessary since you include tasteful little remarks like "if you're a drudge you get inflation increases if you're luck(sic)" it pretty obvious that your articles are biased.
 
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Nope, just a reader friendly source review since you didn't offer it to the general readership.

Actually it probably isn't necessary since you include tasteful little remarks like "if you're a drudge you get inflation increases if you're luck(sic)" it pretty obvious that your articles are biased.
Sure. :roll:
 
A little income disparity is a motivator and a leveller to an extent. Too much just means the bosses are hoarding profits and undervaluing workers.
I love your choice of wishy-washy terms: "a little . . ." "Too much. . . "
 
I love your choice of wishy-washy terms: "a little . . ." "Too much. . . "

Well it is not up to me to put a number on it, case by case.

But generally speaking, income disparity is not all bad ("a little" here is clearly juxtaposed with "too much"), whereas a highly stratified society with a few haves at the top and teeming masses of the working poor at the bottom is a recipe for revolution to any student of history.

I thought it was clear enough. Feel free to share other views on the benefits, disadvantages and potential limits of income disparity.
 
A little income disparity is a motivator and a leveller to an extent. Too much just means the bosses are hoarding profits and undervaluing workers.

The problem, of course, being: who decides how much disparity (difference?) is "too much"?

The idea is often put forth that "the workers" deserve some (usually never specified) percentage of "the profits". If that is the case then "the workers" also deserve to have the (same?) uncertainty as to how much they will earn in a given week, month or year just as the owner of the business experiences. In most (the vast majority) of business models "the workers" agree to a fixed salary (or hourly wage) regardless of how well (or poorly) that business happens to meet its profit goals and are required only to "invest" their time in return for a fixed return on that "investment" (of time and effort).

In my (very small) handyman business it was I (alone) who spent many thousands to acquire the tools and equipment needed to do the jobs. Why, exactly, are my employees entitled to more than simply being paid for the hours that they work (at a mutually agreeable hourly wage) and not some (fixed?) percentage of the profit on a particular job (which I alone have managed to get a customer to pay me to have done)? If a tool or piece of equipment used on a job needs repair or replacement it is I (alone) that must pay for that expense - my employees are not expected to "rebate" any portion of their pay in order to assure my "expected" profit on that job.
 
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