The Case for Christ

[Logicman]

You don't even understand the concept of the Messiah as it is known to Jews.

Yeah, I do.

Your thinking is apparently irreprably distorted by Christian misinformation.

Balderdash.

You're trying to prop up a Judaic theological mindset that in the past rebelled against Moses, killed their own prophets, rejected their own Messiah, and were so at odds with God that he threw them off their land in 70 AD.

But thank God for the Messianic Jews who believe in Christ, their Messiah. You should go to some of their services sometime.

 

[zyzygy]

Yeah, I do.



Balderdash.

You're trying to prop up a Judaic theological mindset that in the past rebelled against Moses, killed their own prophets, rejected their own Messiah, and were so at odds with God that he threw them off their land in 70 AD.

But thank God for the Messianic Jews who believe in Christ, their Messiah. You should go to some of their services sometime.

There is better comedy on TV.

 

[Vox]

You'd be the expert on balderdash, Logicman.

 

[Cephus]

You are correct, but I think I've illustrated this in a way even he can understand with the reference to the Mousketeers.

If I'm remembering correctly, he doesn't have a clue what the Mouseketeers are. At least someone responded that way, not sure if it was him.

 

[Vox]

But now he knows.

:mrgreen:

 

[Logicman]

You'd be the expert on balderdash.

Yep, which is why I spotted yours.

 

[zyzygy]

Yep, which is why I spotted yours.

Why can't you spot your own?

 

[Cephus]

But now he knows.

:mrgreen:

And knowing is half the battle.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Can you show me when and where science has EVER shown that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist? If you can't, then on what objective basis do rule out the supernatural?

I never did rule out the supernatural – I only stated that since no one has ever demonstrated the supernatural, assertions involving the supernatural require, for me, proof. And more proof than hearsay that isn’t even first-hand.

I mean, you have your own miracles you have to believe in to make your agnosticism fly. For starters there's the whole universe suddenly appearing out of nothing.

You don’t understand agnosticism, which is for me a belief that neither “side” (limiting to 2 sides for the sake of argument) has proved its case. However, atheists aren’t asking me to completely change my life and join them in a difficult ritual – which is what is demanded of Christians. Read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity – he explains just how difficult it is to be a Christian.

Then there's the mathematically improbable idea of abiogenesis. Finally, can you name the specific hominid that is man's immediate, direct-line ancestor, and show the conclusive DNA evidence to back that up?

No, but I never made the assertion you just attributed to me. On the other hand, Christianity requires that all humans are descended from the same single couple – has that ever been proven? Without that, “original sin” falls apart.

Also, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Christ or Christianity is a myth? It's easy to make the claim, but I've yet to see anyone put up credible evidence to support that myth claim.

The claim that Christ is a myth is not mine. However, I see no proof (beyond hand-me-down hearsay) as to his divinity.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Show us the scientific criteria for 'proving' the supernatural? If you can't, then how can you claim there is no 'proof' of Jesus' miracles?

Burden of proof -> claimant.

It's also virtually impossible to 'prove' non-material events from ancient history. For instance, outside of 'hearsay' historical reporting, where's the scientific proof that Julius Caesar was assassinated?

Apples and Oranges. Caesar’s assassination isn’t a religion asking me to devote my life to it.

I've already linked you to a mammoth work that documents contemporary miracles. You apparently weren't interested.

Actually, one of them WAS interesting, but I lost it. The contemporaneous non-Christian accounts of the sun going out for several hours. If you post that again, I’ll check them. FWIW, I found numerous false claims on that ‘righterreport’ site. They are too politically invested in quoting false evidence to “prove” that the USA was founded as a Christian nation, among other things. Weaponized/politicized religion is poisonous. This is not a caliphate.

I also asked you to read, "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel. So far there's no indication you've read that either.

Reviews of that made it seem like a waste of time/money. Both the book and the film.

No offense, but it appears that you haven't done your due diligence on these issues, and on the New Testament.

I work, I only have time for so much. This topic is a minor hobby, and that limits the DD I’m willing to put in. I’d rather find the cream and focus on that.

 

[Vox]

Gosh, unless we stop referring to Jesus and Christ as the same person......we'll never get anywhere.

Jesus was a man (probably men) who existed. At least one was an itinerant Pharisee rabbi who was charismatic enough that he was quite well-known and created some stir and much folklore among the people and probably got killed by the Romans.

"Christ" on the other hand, was just a fictional creation featuring vicarious payment for sin, added on to the stories of Jesus. Again, see Maccoby for details.

Unless you SEPARATE the two and see the difference you really can't begin to understand the whole picture.

eaceeaceeace

 

[DashingAmerican]

Which has demonstrable, objective evidence, something that no gods have. But surely you were aware of that, weren't you?

Sure, but at the end of the day, they are still getting something out of nothing.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Sure, but at the end of the day, they are still getting something out of nothing.

That which exists needs a creator. Therefore, if God exists, God needs a creator.

Something from nothing is where it always goes, until someone tries to use the "it always existed" excuse, which is a cop out.

This is a problem for both sides, not just the atheists.

 

[Cephus]

Sure, but at the end of the day, they are still getting something out of nothing.

They're getting something empty out of nothing useful. If that satisfies you, there's a problem.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

That which exists needs a creator. Therefore, if God exists, God needs a creator.

Something from nothing is where it always goes, until someone tries to use the "it always existed" excuse, which is a cop out.

This is a problem for both sides, not just the atheists.

No, that's simply not a cop out. It remains as reasonable an explanation as any other, and is fundamental to at least one major religion.

 

[Logicman]

Burden of proof -> claimant.

You can't prove ancient, supernatural events. You can only report them, which the Gospel writers did. So the 'proof' burden isn't on us.

Actually, one of them WAS interesting, but I lost it. The contemporaneous non-Christian accounts of the sun going out for several hours. If you post that again, I’ll check them.

Here's another one for you:

 

[William Rea]

Did anyone make a case? If not, can I suggest these...

https://www.matalan.co.uk/product/d...hoM7CGwKWNzd5eau--6mgqSg_AEeqzE0aAjm8EALw_wcB

Is he going anywhere nice?

 

[tosca1]

It is derived from the BELIEF in Christ. That doesn't mean said belief is factually correct. Don't tell me you never realized that.

That's a very pathetic attempt to deflect. It shoots down your credibility, Cephus....since it questions your comprehension skills, and your knowledge of the Bible. You have to know some details about something you're trying to critique.



Belief in Christ, who was executed by Pontius Pilate......which is consistent with the Biblical narrative that includes the explosive spread of Christianity, which had reached the cosmopolitan Rome!

Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius:

but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular.

Tacitus and Jesus. Christ Myth refuted. Did Jesus exist?





Don't tell me you never realize........nor understood that!

 

[tosca1]

Gosh, unless we stop referring to Jesus and Christ as the same person......we'll never get anywhere.

Why?
The Bible referred to Jesus as Christ, did it not? Tacitus' writings and the Biblical narrative are compatible!


You guys better stop that bad habit of trying to "sanitize" the evidence whenever the truth doesn't suit you.
Who do you think you're fooling by doing that? Yourselves!

 

[tosca1]

No.......actually, you MISSED the point.

Mickey Mouse was a fictional character.......thus precisely like Paul's invented "Christ" character.

LOL. That's your problem. You don't see the difference. :mrgreen:

You don't follow the logic that the term,

whether it be a fictional term or not.....

...................is derived from something!


Mouseketeer is derived from the fictional character Micky Mouse, and Christians is derived from Christ!

Whether something is fiction, or not.....is not the point!
That's what you're not getting here. :lol:

 

[tosca1]

Originally Posted by Vox View Post
Mickey Mouse was a fictional character.......thus precisely like Paul's invented "Christ" character.

:lol:


Clearly.....

Your logical thinking has gone south.

I think you better take a break, and think about what you just said. That's laughable.

Check out the explanation on post #220. It should help you somewhat. I hope.

 

[Vox]

Why?
The Bible referred to Jesus as Christ, did it not?

What you ignore is the fact that the Bible (your part, that which you call a "new testament") was totally written and edited by Saul/Paul, Luke and their disciples and later followers.

OF COURSE it calls Jesus "The Christ."

Because Paul invented the thing.

Once you get that (and get that Paul was a liar and a fraud) you will see that once the crooked card called Saul/Paul is pulled out of the base of the Christian House of Cards..........that House of Cards collapses in ruins.

All Christianity is totally dependent on one man.........the liar, Saul/Paul of Tarsus.

Don't take my word for it.......simply read Maccoby and you will be forced to reexamine your bizarre belief.

Because Paul invented "The Christ" concept and dishonestly applied it to Jesus (to the dismay of the real disciples of Jesus).

 

[Vox]

Check out the explanation on post #220.

There is no explanation in your post #220.......just more denial of reality.

 

[tosca1]

Even King Arthur bites the dust when compared to Jesus for historical evidence!

How confident can we be that Jesus Christ actually lived?
The historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth is both long-established and widespread. Within a few decades of his supposed lifetime, he is mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians, as well as by dozens of Christian writings.
Compare that with, for example, King Arthur, who supposedly lived around AD500. The major historical source for events of that time does not even mention Arthur, and he is first referred to 300 or 400 years after he is supposed to have lived. The evidence for Jesus is not limited to later folklore, as are accounts of Arthur.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cal-evidence-that-jesus-christ-lived-and-died

 

[tosca1]

Archeology has something to say!

'Earliest mention' of Jesus is found on 1st century ossuary


The words "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" inscribed on an empty 1st century ossuary have provoked a flurry of excitement in the world of biblical archaeology.

Until the Jerusalem ossuary was found, the earliest text referring to Jesus was a papyrus fragment of the New Testament dating from about a century after his death.

'Earliest mention' of Jesus is found on 1st century ossuary - Telegraph



There was accusation that the writings on the Ossuary was forged. It ended with an acquittal.

The James Ossuary, as it’s come to be known, is a limestone bone box that bears an Aramaic inscription reading “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”

Controversy—including charges of forgery—has surrounded this ossuary since the Biblical Archaeology Review first reported on the artifact in 2002.

The saga of the James Ossuary culminated in 2012 with the acquittal of Israeli antiquities collector (and owner of the ossuary) Oded Golan in a seven-year “forgery trial of the century,” but the story isn’t over yet.


“Only one scholar addressed the question of the authenticity of the inscription—the same Christopher Rollston who could not express an opinion at the trial. Now he was prepared to opine on the authenticity of the inscription—for all of 33 seconds.”

Is the ?Brother of Jesus? Inscription on the James Ossuary a Forgery? - Biblical Archaeology Society


Anti-Christ and radical humanists will try everything to suppress the truth.