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The Big Three Tyrannies... and the Revolution

Occam's Razor

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The conditions that led to the revolution are quite well known to most...

Freedom from religious tyranny - Throughout history, without exception in western culture, religion has been a constant source of oppression and human suffering and death, either of non-believers or their own flock. Sometimes acting as the government, sometimes conspiring with government.

Freedom from government tyranny - From village councils to colony governors to the crown, tyranny in government.. meddling in the daily personal business of it's citizens, intruding into their homes was an ever present fact of life with no recourse to address the complaints of the people, no representation.

The one that everyone forgets, if they ever knew... the lesson lost to history, the one we deluded ourselves into thinking republican democracy had cured... Tyranny of capital. (not an anti-capitalist statement).

The founding documents have at their core three principles...
Freedom/self-determination
recognition and protection of natural rights
and balance... the idea that all "men" are created equal, and to expand that idea to eventually include all.. to preserve that equality as much as a government can through checks and balances on power, equal representation, equal rights, equality of religion, etc.

As in any natural system, when things get out of balance, the system crashes.

At the founding of our country, as many warnings were given with regard to the creation and regulation of money as well as the over-concentration of wealth into too few hands, as were given regarding the influences of religion and the inherently corrupt nature of all governments.

The tax protests and rebellions of the early 1770s were as much about the companies like East India Trd as it was about parliament and the crown. For this reason early companies and "incorporations" were extremely limited in the scope of their business practices had no rights but instead, were granted privileges from the people in public trust. The reason is simple. Moneyed interests have had as corrupting and historically constant an influence over governments as have religions and tyrannical kings.

Avarice - Avarice take two forms according to the bible and all moral belief systems (which in this case is reference to historical knowledge, not religion) takes two forms...

Hoarding wealth. Hoarding wealth and not spending it back into society deprives the society of liquidity needed for opportunity and at extremes, basic needs.

Over spending - spending without saving on wants and desires risks your families health and stability.

Balance

Capitalism, if nothing else, is essential to innovation, which is one of the things we are most proud of as Americans. Yet like all things, it must be in balance with the things it's connected to, ie; community, labor, government, etc. A minimally regulated, profit at any cost environment is historically a certain path to tyranny.

Not only have we failed to keep capital interests in check and balance with social needs and standards of living, we have allowed the creation of a super-citizen leading to unequal representation and corporations so large that they can threaten the entire world, extorting bailouts and zero consequence when failure, bankruptcy and lifelong ridicule was warranted.

There is no debate that money = political voice... and the ability of representatives to hear.. if 20% of the pop holds 85% of the wealth, the remaining 80% middle class and poor could pool all their money, all 15% left in the economy and still not outspend the money interests. No longer is it one voice, one vote. The owners and directors of companies and corporations, aside from already having the same voice and vote as all others, now have a mega amplified voice by leveraging the resources and capital of their companies to further influence representation.

This... is grossly out of balance.
 

ecofarm

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I nominate Ru Paul.
 

DaveFagan

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The recent bailout of the "Too big to fail" banks is an excellent example of failure of this system. They have received billions and perhaps trillions of dollars and the resulting multiplier effect has been .1 to .3 and that is documented failure. The monies have not been used to create liquidity in the economy. I suspect a consolidation of powers is ongoing to the detriment of the citizenry. Even worse is the story of current "fiat monies," Wowser, where's Batman when you need him?
 

Thoreau72

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I hate to sound like a broken record, but David Cay Johnston's book The Fine Print touches upon the subject of this thread. :peace
 

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The conditions that led to the revolution are quite well known to most...

Freedom from religious tyranny - Throughout history, without exception in western culture, religion has been a constant source of oppression and human suffering and death, either of non-believers or their own flock. Sometimes acting as the government, sometimes conspiring with government.

Freedom from government tyranny - From village councils to colony governors to the crown, tyranny in government.. meddling in the daily personal business of it's citizens, intruding into their homes was an ever present fact of life with no recourse to address the complaints of the people, no representation.

The one that everyone forgets, if they ever knew... the lesson lost to history, the one we deluded ourselves into thinking republican democracy had cured... Tyranny of capital. (not an anti-capitalist statement).

The founding documents have at their core three principles...
Freedom/self-determination
recognition and protection of natural rights
and balance... the idea that all "men" are created equal, and to expand that idea to eventually include all.. to preserve that equality as much as a government can through checks and balances on power, equal representation, equal rights, equality of religion, etc.

As in any natural system, when things get out of balance, the system crashes.

At the founding of our country, as many warnings were given with regard to the creation and regulation of money as well as the over-concentration of wealth into too few hands, as were given regarding the influences of religion and the inherently corrupt nature of all governments.

The tax protests and rebellions of the early 1770s were as much about the companies like East India Trd as it was about parliament and the crown. For this reason early companies and "incorporations" were extremely limited in the scope of their business practices had no rights but instead, were granted privileges from the people in public trust. The reason is simple. Moneyed interests have had as corrupting and historically constant an influence over governments as have religions and tyrannical kings.

Avarice - Avarice take two forms according to the bible and all moral belief systems (which in this case is reference to historical knowledge, not religion) takes two forms...

Hoarding wealth. Hoarding wealth and not spending it back into society deprives the society of liquidity needed for opportunity and at extremes, basic needs.

Over spending - spending without saving on wants and desires risks your families health and stability.

Balance

Capitalism, if nothing else, is essential to innovation, which is one of the things we are most proud of as Americans. Yet like all things, it must be in balance with the things it's connected to, ie; community, labor, government, etc. A minimally regulated, profit at any cost environment is historically a certain path to tyranny.

Not only have we failed to keep capital interests in check and balance with social needs and standards of living, we have allowed the creation of a super-citizen leading to unequal representation and corporations so large that they can threaten the entire world, extorting bailouts and zero consequence when failure, bankruptcy and lifelong ridicule was warranted.

There is no debate that money = political voice... and the ability of representatives to hear.. if 20% of the pop holds 85% of the wealth, the remaining 80% middle class and poor could pool all their money, all 15% left in the economy and still not outspend the money interests. No longer is it one voice, one vote. The owners and directors of companies and corporations, aside from already having the same voice and vote as all others, now have a mega amplified voice by leveraging the resources and capital of their companies to further influence representation.

This... is grossly out of balance.
A question not only for you but anyone ascribing themselves to this thread:

How to be free from capitalistic tyranny?

Or how to be free from capitalistic tyranny while keeping government tyranny and especially religious tyranny at bay?
 

Occam's Razor

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A question not only for you but anyone ascribing themselves to this thread:

How to be free from capitalistic tyranny?

Or how to be free from capitalistic tyranny while keeping government tyranny and especially religious tyranny at bay?
The same we we try to protect ourselves from the others, limits on power, limits on association with gov't... nothing revolutionary...
 

TurtleDude

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The same we we try to protect ourselves from the others, limits on power, limits on association with gov't... nothing revolutionary...
you missed the one that the left is most apt to support

the tyranny of mediocrity
 

Occam's Razor

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you missed the one that the left is most apt to support

the tyranny of mediocrity
Personally, I find people that can't extricate themselves from their party view perspectives extremely mediocre.

But no, I didn't forget, the founding documents were not concerned with mediocrity or your imagined tyranny of it.
 

What if...?

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The same we we try to protect ourselves from the others, limits on power, limits on association with gov't... nothing revolutionary...
Yeah, admitting their are potential problems would be a big help.

At this point, criticizing capitalism is heresy.
 

Trip

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Personally, I find people that can't extricate themselves from their party view perspectives extremely mediocre.

But no, I didn't forget, the founding documents were not concerned with mediocrity or your imagined tyranny of it.
I'm pretty certain that his point was not that the founding documents involved the promotion of any sort of mediocrity, and he was clear on this, but rather that is in fact what our government is doing in everything it touches, through compulsions that are nowhere the government's authority under the Constitution.

Another thing, the Constitution and adherence thereto is not a partisan focus. The rejection and corruption of that Constitution is by all means a Democrat partisan agenda, but by no means any sort of legitimate politics in this country.
 

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I'm pretty certain that his point was not that the founding documents involved the promotion of any sort of mediocrity, and he was clear on this, but rather that is in fact what our government is doing in everything it touches, through compulsions that are nowhere the government's authority under the Constitution.

Another thing, the Constitution and adherence thereto is not a partisan focus. The rejection and corruption of that Constitution is by all means a Democrat partisan agenda, but by no means any sort of legitimate politics in this country.
you got it, he didn't. the left inflicts us with the lowest common denominator leading us to be forced to choke in the dust of snails
 

Occam's Razor

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I'm pretty certain that his point was not that the founding documents involved the promotion of any sort of mediocrity, and he was clear on this, but rather that is in fact what our government is doing in everything it touches, through compulsions that are nowhere the government's authority under the Constitution.

Another thing, the Constitution and adherence thereto is not a partisan focus. The rejection and corruption of that Constitution is by all means a Democrat partisan agenda, but by no means any sort of legitimate politics in this country.
I'm sorry... are you saying that the rejection and corruption of the Constitution is ONLY a partisan agenda of democrats?

There is not a party or partisan position that is not contributing to the subversion of the constitution.
 

Trip

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I'm sorry... are you saying that the rejection and corruption of the Constitution is ONLY a partisan agenda of democrats?

There is not a party or partisan position that is not contributing to the subversion of the constitution.
That was not what I said. However the fact that the entirety of the Democratic platform is contrary to the Constitution, whereas those Republicans that embrace statist "progressive" agendas are against the Constitution, are two different recognitions, with the latter not being an official position of the party.
 

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The same we we try to protect ourselves from the others, limits on power, limits on association with gov't... nothing revolutionary...
And enforcement of the law. The rule of law, whereby government officials are prosecuted for breaking the law, and crony capitalists are prosecuted for violating the laws. And that true capitalism be implemented, rather than this system of fascism we have now.

In true capitalism, companies and individuals who practice business poorly enough to fail, actually fail and go away.
 

Occam's Razor

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That was not what I said. However the fact that the entirety of the Democratic platform is contrary to the Constitution, whereas those Republicans that embrace statist "progressive" agendas are against the Constitution, are two different recognitions, with the latter not being an official position of the party.
Okay, I thought I was misunderstanding, just checking...

However, I'm personally less interested in what is said of official positions (as these are often veils for hidden agendas), and more interested in their deeds. Using that metric, I see no difference between the two parties, overall, with regard to respect for the constitution and it's underlying principles.
 

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The founding documents have at their core three principles...
Freedom/self-determination
recognition and protection of natural rights
and balance...
Obviously you've never read them. Perhaps you should do that before posting any further.
 

Occam's Razor

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Obviously you've never read them. Perhaps you should do that before posting any further.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...inds-shaped-catalog-historical-documents.html

This is a thread I started back in 2006 on another forum... I've read everything on it and much much more, how about you? My family history is woven into the revolution and there is a fort on the east coast bearing my families name. I had a grandmother who was a national speaker for the DAR and benefitted from her scholarly knowledge and research.

Obviously, you are so full of yourself that you can make snap judgements of others through a narrow window on a backwater forum.

I suggest you comment only on what you KNOW. And you should also know, that making your sole comment on a thread a personal attack... discredits all future posts. Way to go. Wanna try again?
 

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http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...inds-shaped-catalog-historical-documents.html

This is a thread I started back in 2006 on another forum... I've read everything on it and much much more, how about you? My family history is woven into the revolution and there is a fort on the east coast bearing my families name. I had a grandmother who was a national speaker for the DAR and benefitted from her scholarly knowledge and research.

Obviously, you are so full of yourself that you can make snap judgements of others through a narrow window on a backwater forum.

I suggest you comment only on what you KNOW. And you should also know, that making your sole comment on a thread a personal attack... discredits all future posts. Way to go. Wanna try again?
What has all this to do with convincing me you know anything about the founding documents? Do you think your family's accomplishments give you some kind of special insight or justifies saying day is night and up is down?

The truth is other than what you said it is, our documents do not have at their core:
Freedom/self-determination
recognition and protection of natural rights
and balance...
 

Occam's Razor

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What has all this to do with convincing me you know anything about the founding documents? Do you think your family's accomplishments give you some kind of special insight or justifies saying day is night and up is down?

The truth is other than what you said it is, our documents do not have at their core:
Hey, troll... you come here, make a baseless and very ignorant personal attack on me instead of addressing the topic. So, I cited facts that show your myopic assumption is that of an idiot. And yes, I know not all families pass on legacies and teach their children and grand children... mine did. Does that give me special insite, maybe, maybe not... but pouring over letters and documents written people involved in the revolution, with a family connection... makes it very personal and far more interesting than an abstract in any history class could ever provide.

And still... You provide nothing other than critique. "No it wasn't" is a seven year olds argument. Unless you offer a rebuttal, you're comments aren't worth the electrons to display them.

Recap:
You baselessly, ignorantly attack my personal knowledge of those documents... I supply my reading list and the foundations of my understanding... then you dismiss...

What are YOUR qualifications?
 

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Hey, troll... you come here, make a baseless and very ignorant personal attack on me instead of addressing the topic.
I said I didn't think you'd ever read the founding documents. That's not a personal attack. It's a bit of skepticism about your credibility. If you have read them, just say so. Then we can get to the issues.

... So, I cited facts that show your myopic assumption is that of an idiot. And yes, I know not all families pass on legacies and teach their children and grand children... mine did. Does that give me special insite, maybe, maybe not... but pouring over letters and documents written people involved in the revolution, with a family connection... makes it very personal and far more interesting than an abstract in any history class could ever provide.
Interesting and personal, perhaps, but not necessarily authoritative. In fact, you may become distracted by your personal connection to the founding generation. Maybe stepping back a bit would be a good idea. Try to get a disinterested view.

And still... You provide nothing other than critique. "No it wasn't" is a seven year olds argument. Unless you offer a rebuttal, you're comments aren't worth the electrons to display them.
I didn't think you were ready for a list of particulars yet.

Let's start wit this.

The Declaration of Independence is a hack manifesto written to incite revolution in a population not much inclined toward it. As your ancestors certainly must have discussed in their letters, about a third of the population supported revolution, a third supported the crown and a third didn't care one way or the other. The rebels had do do something to move the numbers and a bit well-written but inflammatory rhetoric was just the the thing to do it.

Calling the Declaration of Independence a founding document, however, is silly. It mostly was ignored for the first 50 years after the revolution ended because it's insubstantial. It adds nothing to the plan of self-government and it's certainly worthless as a guarantee of natural rights. An author who says all men are equal except the ones I own has absolutely no credibility.

Now I'm off for a late celebration of the Fourth of July.

Go figure.
 

Occam's Razor

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I said I didn't think you'd ever read the founding documents. That's not a personal attack. It's a bit of skepticism about your credibility. If you have read them, just say so. Then we can get to the issues.
Your quote was... "Obviously you've never read them. Perhaps you should do that before posting any further."

This is NOT a statement of skepticism, rather an arrogant statement of assumed fact. It is dripping with condescension. If your purpose was neutral skepticism might I suggest you ASK if I've read them rather than declaring knowledge you don't have.

The error in communication was not mine. Your stock is quickly losing ground by trying to back peddle and soft sell your previous STATEMENT

And still you offer nothing more than "no it isn't" and "no I didn't"

Epic fail!
 

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Three trannies and a revolution?

They're not so big and don't seem mad enough to revolt.



These three trannies might have been the ones the OP was talking about, though.

 

Occam's Razor

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Three trannies and a revolution?

They're not so big and don't seem mad enough to revolt.



These three trannies might have been the ones the OP was talking about, though.

In a moment of panic, I had to double check my spelling on the thread title.... phew!

Very funny.. ya got me :)
 
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