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The 1967 War

Israel wanted to live in peace, in a land where they were not treated like pariahs just because of being Jewish. The Arab nations simply couldn't accept this and couldn't stop themselves from their incessant attacks. If the Arab nations could have restrained themselves, they wouldn't have lost anything at all in '67.

Israel wanted the fertile Golan watershed, the West Bank aquifers, the Jordan River and Southern Lebanon up to the Litanit River.

All thru the 1950s Israel sent dump trucks accompanied by armed soldiers into Lebanon to take topsoil.. There were dozens of minor massacres of Lebanese farmers.
 
Israel wanted the fertile Golan watershed, the West Bank aquifers, the Jordan River and Southern Lebanon up to the Litanit River.

All thru the 1950s Israel sent dump trucks accompanied by armed soldiers into Lebanon to take topsoil.. There were dozens of minor massacres of Lebanese farmers.

Got links for any of this?
 
Got links for any of this?

Moshe Dayan in an interview given in 1976, but which was not made public until April 1997. Dayan, who died in 1981, was a key organizer of Israel's victory in the June 1967 Israel-Arab war.

"I made a mistake in allowing the [Israeli] conquest of the Golan Heights," he said, "As defense minister I should have stopped it because the Syrians were not threatening us at the time." The seizure went ahead, he added, not because Israel was threatened, but in response to pressure from Jews who coveted Syrian land, and from army commanders in northern Israel. "Of course [war with Syria] was not necessary. You can say the Syrians are bastards and attack when you want. But this is not policy. You don't open aggression against an enemy because he's a bastard but because he's a threat."

"At least 80 percent" of the border clashes over nearly two decades associated with the Syrian shellings were initiated by Israel, Dayan continued. "We would send a tractor to plow some [disputed] area ... and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."

"So," a Washington Post columnist recently summed up, "on the authority of what you could call an impeachable source, the situation is very different from what is commonly portrayed. Israel, with an appetite for land, for political profit and for strategic depth, was in the Golan instance -- not in all instances -- an aggressor, not the victim of aggression."

(S. Rosenfeld, "Israel and Syria: Correcting the Record," The Washington Post, Dec. 24, 1999.)

Moshe Dayan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Footnotes are extensive........
 
...

Footnotes are extensive........
Those Dayan 'quotes' do Not substantiate all the claims you made above.
Those Dayan 'quotes' were not from a verifiable source, rather from:

Wiki "..In 1997, years after Dayan died, an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, published conversations he had with Dayan in 1976. In that conversation Dayan claimed that 80 percent of the cross-border clashes between Israel and Syria in the years before the war were a result of Israeli provocation (Dayan was Not Defense minister at the time)..."
[Then your quotes]

They were the subjective recollection of a writer 20 years after the fact and well after Dayan died. Unverifiable third party.
Not as say, a newspaper reporter quote from a source the day before. A source who could deny/acknowledge it.
This is a Wiki failing in service of politics.
 
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Those Dayan 'quotes' do Not substantiate all the claims you made above.
Those Dayan 'quotes' were not from a verifiable source, rather from:

"..In 1997, years after Dayan died, an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, published conversations he had with Dayan in 1976. In that conversation Dayan claimed that 80 percent of the cross-border clashes between Israel and Syria in the years before the war were a result of Israeli provocation (Dayan was not Defense minister at the time)..."

They were the subjective opinion of a writer 20 years after the fact and well after Dyan died. Unverifiable third party.

(S. Rosenfeld, "Israel and Syria: Correcting the Record," The Washington Post, Dec. 24, 1999.)

The only problem is that all through the 1950s and early 1960s I lay on the living room floor every evening and listened to the broadcasts from BBC and the VOA about these Israeli incursions and small massacres..
 
The Water Libel.
1950-2000

DOES ISRAEL USE 'PALESTINIAN' WATER?
March/April 2000
[..........]
A Factual Look at Middle East Water Issues

1. What are Israel's Water Sources?

Israel has 3 main water sources: the Sea of Galilee, the Coastal Aquifer, and the Western and Northern Aquifers of the so-called Mountain Aquifer. Together these sources have a safe annual yield of roughly 1350 MCM (note).
The Galilee and the Coastal Aquifer are both entirely within the pre-1967 borders of Israel, and both were extensively developed and used by Jewish residents even during the period of the British Mandate (that is, well before 1948). Therefore, charges that Israel is using "Palestinian water" usually center on the Western and Northern Aquifers, which straddle the border between pre-1967 Israel and the West Bank.

The Western Aquifer

The Western Aquifer, with a safe annual yield of roughly 360 MCM, is fed by rain falling on the western slopes of the West Bank's Judean and Samarian mountains. The water percolates through porous surface rock into the aquifer far below the surface, and then naturally flows downwards toward the Israeli coastline. Prevented from actually reaching the coast by natural hydrologic barriers, the water instead emerges in Natural springs which are almost Entirely in Israel (note).

As Early as the 1950s Israel used 95% of the Western Aquifer's Water
Most of the Western Aquifer's water is stored under Israel, and the water is easily accessible only where the storage area approaches the surface. This accessible region is almost entirely within Israel. As a result, already by the 1950s Israel was using about 95% of the aquifer's water, the rest being used by Arab farmers in the West Bank towns of Qalqilya and Tulkarem, via springs and wells. Both towns are literally within meters of the border with pre-1967 Israel. (note).

Assertions that gaining control of the West Bank in 1967 has allowed Israel to use "Palestinian water" from the Western Aquifer are therefore completely specious.


The Northern Aquifer
[.....]
2. How Much Water does Israel Consume?
Currently an average of 360 MCM are drawn from the Western Aquifer annually, with 340 MCM drawn within Israel, and 20 MCM drawn by Palestinians in the West Bank. (note) However, not all the water drawn within Israel is used within Israel – more than 40 MCM are pumped over the Green Line for use by the Palestinians (note).

Israel's share of the Western Aquifer's water, which was 95% prior to 1967, has declined to 83%
, while the Palestinian share of the aquifer's water has significantly increased.
Similarly, an average of 128 MCM are drawn from the Northern Aquifer annually, with 103 MCM used within Israel from Israeli sources, and 25 MCM used by Palestinians in the West Bank, mostly supplying the Jenin area. Israel's share of the Northern Aquifer's water, at 82% prior to 1967, has Declined to 80%.
In other words, since 1967 the proportion of the Northern Aquifer's waters used by Palestinians has increased.

3. What About Palestinian Consumption?

In the period from 1967 to 1995 West Bank Palestinians increased their domestic water use by 640%, from 5.4 MCM to 40 MCM (note). By way of comparison, in the same 28 year period Israeli domestic usage increased by just 142%.

This Huge jump in Palestinian consumption was possible only because Israel drilled or permitted the drilling of over 50 new wells for the Palestinian population, laid Hundreds of kilometers of new water mains and connected hundreds of Palestinian villages and towns to the newly built water system.

Palestinian sources broadly Confirm this picture. For example, Taher Nassereddin, Director General of the West Bank Water Department, has stated that:
[Palestinian] consumption for domestic purposes has Increased as a result of population growth and that there were no severe restrictions on drilling new wells for these purposes.

It is important to note, however, that for political reasons some Palestinian villages and towns refused to be hooked up to the new main water system, and may therefore not have a reliable water supply today....
[....]

4. Israel Supplies Water to the Palestinians, Jordan, and Lebanon


Contrary to charges that Israel uses Arab water, the reality is the REVERSE: Israel has supplied, from its own sources, Large amounts of water to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, to the Kingdom of Jordan, and to a number of villages in South Lebanon.

Meanwhile, Jordan has not supplied the West Bank with any water since 1967, despite its obligation, under international legal guidelines, to supply 70-150 MCM annually.

Israeli Water TO the Palestinians

More than 40 MCM annually is pumped within Israel and piped over the Green Line for Palestinian use in the West Bank (note). The Ramallah area alone, through its independent Palestinian water utility, receives more than 5 MCM annually from Israeli sources (note).
In addition, Israel also supplies more than 4 MCM annually to the Gaza Strip through the Kissufim Line of the National Water Carrier, serving the Palestinian localities of El-Bureij, Moazi, Abason, Bani Suheila and Khan Yunis (note).

Israeli Water TO Jordan


Under their peace agreement (note/source) Israel agreed to supply, or arrange for the supply of, an additional 55 MCM of water annually to Jordan. Until the development of new desalinization plants, all of the additional water is coming directly from Israeli sources (Jordan Times, 25 Aug 99). In recent years Israel has supplied Jordan with 75 MCM annually, or roughly 20 MCM more water than was agreed upon (note).

Israeli Water TO Lebanon


Ten otherwise dry Southern Lebanese villages receive 600,000 CM of water annually from wells within Israel. A ten-inch pipe, for example, runs from Israel to the Lebanese village of R'meish (note).

5. How does Israeli Water Use Compare to that of its Neighbors?

Many media reports have portrayed Israel as a profligate user of water. The July 27, 1999 NPR report claimed that "the average Israeli consumes about six times more water than the average Palestinian." NPR's claim is grossly incorrect. While Israelis, both Jewish and Arab, use more water per capita than Palestinians, the actual ratio is far less than six. In 1995, ie, Israel's annual per capita usage was 308 CM... while for West Bank Palestinians usage was 124 CM, a ratio of 2.5 (note).
Moreover, among countries in the immediate area, Israel has the second Lowest annual per capita usage: Syria's is 1089 CM, Egypt's is 921, Lebanon's is 444, and Jordan's is 201 (note).
It is also instructive to look at the trend of Israeli water use. In the ten year period from 1984/85 to 1995, for example, Israel's population grew by 32%, but its water use grew by just 3.3%, a sign of the country's great efforts at water conservation and efficiency...
In contrast, during the same period Jordan's population increased by 59%, but its water use increased by 113% (Hashemite/Jordan, Stat Yearbook 1987, 1995). Similarly, in this period Syria's population grew by 38%, but use of drinking water grew by 43%.. (note).

6. Shared Water: Legal Guidelines


Many media reports have uncritically accepted false Palestinian charges that Israeli water policies violate international law.
The relevant legal norms are the Helsinki Rules (1966) as supplemented by the Seoul Rules (1986), which according to a leading authority state that the actual needs of communities take precedence over the natural properties of the water course, and that among the needs, priority is given to past and existing uses, at the expense of potential uses.

Thus, Israel's first and continuing use of downstream water resources which flow towards the country from the West Bank is justified by generally accepted legal guidelines. These same guidelines have been invoked, for example, by Egypt, regarding the Nile (Egypt is downstream from Ethiopia, Sudan and Kenya), and by Jordan regarding the Yarmuk (Jordan is downstream from Syria).
In light of the above, it is striking that Israel, chronically short of water, and suffering from a terrible drought, continues to generously share the precious resource with neighbors despite being falsely charged with profligate use of stolen water.
 
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This may be helpful since you are changing the subject to water... and there is an ICE case study you should look at as well as pollution studies of the Aquifers and the Jordan River.

"Hydrostrategic" Territory in the Jordan Basin:
Water, War, and Arab-Israeli Peace Negotiations
Aaron T. Wolf
University of Alabama

Paper presented at a conference:
Water: A Trigger for Conflict/A Reason for Cooperation
Bloomington, Indiana
March 7-10, 1996

CES: "Hydrostrategic" Territory in the Jordan Basin: Water, War, and Arab-Israeli Peace Negotiations
 
Israel wanted more land.. They should have bought it...

Nasser was already a star in the Arab world..

Israel offered all of the land it conquered back to the Arabs in exchange for a peace treaty. The Arabs retaliated with the resolutions of the Khartoum conference.
 
Israel offered all of the land it conquered back to the Arabs in exchange for a peace treaty. The Arabs retaliated with the resolutions of the Khartoum conference.

You are talking about the 3 NOs.. What did you really expect after attacking Egypt?

Here's the ICE case study I referenced earlier

Jordan River Dispute
 
You are talking about the 3 NOs.. What did you really expect after attacking Egypt?

Here's the ICE case study I referenced earlier

Jordan River Dispute

I'm talking about your theory that Israel wanted more land.
Israel offered the Arabs all of the land back in exchange for peace right after the war, the Arabs said no... no... no...
 
I'm talking about your theory that Israel wanted more land.
Israel offered the Arabs all of the land back in exchange for peace right after the war, the Arabs said no... no... no...

Its not a theory unless you can brand Moshe Dayan , Moshe Sharret, Benny Morris and others as liars.

The attack on Egypt was completely unnecessary..

When you want land, you BUY it.

As things stand now it was a short sighted solution.. The Coastal aquifer has been over pumped to supply the West Bank and is backfilling with salt water.. The mountain aquifer meansures heavy metals, nitrates and e-coli in parts per thousand and the Jordan river is a mess... and I am weary.. I have been on my soap box since 1972 that Israel should invest in massive salt water desalination so water distribution wouldn't be an obstacle to peace.
 
This may be helpful since you are Changing the subject to Water... and there is an ICE case study you should look at as well as pollution studies of the Aquifers and the Jordan River.
.....
No, YOU Brought up the "subject" of water on the last page!

sharon on previous page said:
Israel wanted the fertile Golan watershed, the West Bank aquifers, the Jordan River and Southern Lebanon up to the Litanit River.

All thru the 1950s Israel sent dump trucks accompanied by armed soldiers into Lebanon to take topsoil.. There were dozens of minor massacres of Lebanese farmers.
Your posts are all Incoherent or Lies.. or Both.
You don't remember what you said 30 minutes, ago, because You just say whatever is convenient at the moment.


EDIT to the below:
sharon LIES Profusely.
ie, http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...on-israeli-settlements-13.html#post1060186601
This time suggesting/LYING I "changed the subject to water", when it was She who brought up water on the last page, #176.
Then below acknowledges (at least after I quote her on the same page)... SHE "of course" brought up water.
WT..H!
You cannot even carry on a Coherent conversation with sharon as she alternately lies, denies, acknowledges, and then doesn't want to discuss it.
 
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No..
No, YOU Brought up the "subject" of water on the last page!


Your posts are all Incoherent or Lies.. or Both.

Yes.. of course they did per Sharret and Moshe Dayan..

So if you are doing your homework on water in Israel, you know by now the disastrous results of mismanagement since 1967.
 
Its not a theory unless you can brand Moshe Dayan , Moshe Sharret, Benny Morris and others as liars.

The attack on Egypt was completely unnecessary..

When you want land, you BUY it.

As things stand now it was a short sighted solution.. The Coastal aquifer has been over pumped to supply the West Bank and is backfilling with salt water.. The mountain aquifer meansures heavy metals, nitrates and e-coli in parts per thousand and the Jordan river is a mess... and I am weary.. I have been on my soap box since 1972 that Israel should invest in massive salt water desalination so water distribution wouldn't be an obstacle to peace.

none of this makes sense... what does desalination of water got to do with Israel offering the Arabs to return the land conquered in return for peace ?
And you still didn't explain why would the Israeli government offer the land back if they conspired to take over the land before the war...
 
No, YOU Brought up the "subject" of water on the last page!


Your posts are all Incoherent or Lies.. or Both.
You don't remember what you said 30 minutes, ago, because You just say whatever is convenient at the moment.


EDIT to the below:
sharon LIES Profusely.
ie, http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...on-israeli-settlements-13.html#post1060186601
This time suggesting/LYING I "changed the subject to water", when it was She who brought up water on the last page, #176.
Then below acknowledges (at least after I quote her on the same page)... SHE "of course" brought up water.
WT..H!
You cannot even carry on a Coherent conversation with sharon as she alternately lies, denies, acknowledges, and then doesn't want to discuss it.

Well, do you want to discuss what Moshe Dayan said about coveting more land and water assets or do you want current studies on the water problems in Israel?

I can discuss either, but there is far more evidence re: aquifer polutions etc.. I was just unprepared for your mission drift.
 
none of this makes sense... what does desalination of water got to do with Israel offering the Arabs to return the land conquered in return for peace ?
And you still didn't explain why would the Israeli government offer the land back if they conspired to take over the land before the war...

Threats and attempts to take the Litani, and/or divert the Hasbani and Wazzani Rivers have been an endless source of conflict. .. and, you probably recall that a half dozens studie by US Universities recommended desalination plants as far back as 1970.

It must be an important issue.. Don't you recall the flap over the "Peace pipeline" in the 1980s from the Blue Nile to the Negev?
 
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Threats and attempts to take the Litani, and/or divert the Hasbani and Wazzani Rivers have been an endless source of conflict. .. and, you probably recall that a half dozens studie by US Universities recommended desalination plants as far back as 1970.

It must be an important issue.. Don't you recall the flap over the "Peace pipeline" in the 1980s from the Blue Nile to the Negev?

Are you a robot or something?

you just click quote and write stuff with no connection to what you are quoting...
 
Are you a robot or something?

you just click quote and write stuff with no connection to what you are quoting...

MBig changed the course of the discussion to Israel's water issues.. You should probably taake it up with him.
 
MBig changed the course of the discussion to Israel's water issues.. You should probably taake it up with him.

I'm not Mbig and you are quoting me not Mbig.
Why would Israel conspire to take the Sinai and then offer to give it back a week later?
 
I'm not Mbig and you are quoting me not Mbig.
Why would Israel conspire to take the Sinai and then offer to give it back a week later?

Probably because they realized what a mistake they'd made in attacking Egypt.. Why not ASK them?
 
Probably because they realized what a mistake they'd made in attacking Egypt.. Why not ASK them?

Why not provide proof for your baseless claim when the aftermath is suggesting the exact opposite.
 
Well, do you want to discuss what Moshe Dayan said about coveting more land and water assets or do you want current studies on the water problems in Israel?

I can discuss either, but there is far more evidence re: aquifer polutions etc.. I was just unprepared for your mission drift.

I notice that in your post(#178) you quoted this from your link..."I made a mistake in allowing the Israel conquest of the Golan Heights. As defense minister I should have stopped it because the Syrians were not threatening us at the time." But you didn't include the tail end of that where additional info was provided that says this, "[fourth day of the war]."

Syria wasn't attacking because in the previous 3 days, their attacking units had failed, so Syria just resolved themselves to attacking a civilian city with an artillery barrage:
False Egyptian reports of a crushing victory against the Israeli army[56] and forecasts that Egyptian forces would soon be attacking Tel Aviv influenced Syria's willingness to enter the war. Syrian artillery began shelling northern Israel, and twelve Syrian jets attacked Israeli settlements in the Galilee. Israeli fighter jets intercepted the Syrian aircraft, shooting down three and driving off the rest. On the evening of June 5, the Israeli Air Force attacked Syrian airfields. The Syrian Air Force lost some 32 MiG 21s, and 23 MiG-15 and MiG-17 fighters, and two Ilyushin Il-28 bombers, two-thirds of its fighting strength. The Syrian aircraft that survived the attack retreated to distant bases without playing any further role in the ensuing warfare. Following the attack, Syria understood that the news it had heard from Egypt of the near-total destruction of the Israeli military could not have been true.[93] A minor Syrian force tried to capture the water plant at Tel Dan (the subject of a fierce escalation two years earlier), Dan, and She'ar Yashuv. These attacks were repulsed with the loss of twenty soldiers and seven tanks. An Israeli officer was also killed. But a broader Syrian offensive quickly failed. Units of Syrian reserves were broken up by Israeli air attacks, and several Syrian tanks were reported to have sunk in the Jordan River. Other problems included tanks too wide for bridges, lack of radio communications between tanks and infantry, and units ignoring orders to advance. A post-war Syrian army report concluded "Our forces did not go on the offensive either because they did not arrive or were not wholly prepared or because they could not find shelter from the enemy's planes. The reserves could not withstand the air attacks; they dispersed after their morale plummeted."[94] The Syrians abandoned hopes of a ground attack and began a massive bombardment of Israeli communities in the Hula Valley instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Golan_Heights
 
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Why not provide proof for your baseless claim when the aftermath is suggesting the exact opposite.

I posted proof or WHY Israel provoked a war on Egypt.. and have said nothing at all about why they changed their minds afterwaards.
 
I posted proof or WHY Israel provoked a war on Egypt.. and have said nothing at all about why they changed their minds afterwaards.

Sorry I missed that, please share the link again. Does it include proof that Israeli officials coveted the Sinai peninsula ?
 
Sorry I missed that, please share the link again. Does it include proof that Israeli officials coveted the Sinai peninsula ?

No indications that they wanted the Sinai, but once you go on a land grab.. where do you stop?
 
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