The 1967 War

[sharon]

Moshe Dayan in an interview given in 1976, but which was not made public until April 1997. Dayan, who died in 1981, was a key organizer of Israel's victory in the June 1967 Israel-Arab war.

"I made a mistake in allowing the [Israeli] conquest of the Golan Heights," he said, "As defense minister I should have stopped it because the Syrians were not threatening us at the time." The seizure went ahead, he added, not because Israel was threatened, but in response to pressure from Jews who coveted Syrian land, and from army commanders in northern Israel. "Of course [war with Syria] was not necessary. You can say the Syrians are bastards and attack when you want. But this is not policy. You don't open aggression against an enemy because he's a bastard but because he's a threat."

"At least 80 percent" of the border clashes over nearly two decades associated with the Syrian shellings were initiated by Israel, Dayan continued. "We would send a tractor to plow some [disputed] area ... and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."

"So," a Washington Post columnist recently summed up, "on the authority of what you could call an impeachable source, the situation is very different from what is commonly portrayed. Israel, with an appetite for land, for political profit and for strategic depth, was in the Golan instance -- not in all instances -- an aggressor, not the victim of aggression."

(S. Rosenfeld, "Israel and Syria: Correcting the Record," The Washington Post, Dec. 24, 1999.)

Moshe Dayan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Footnotes are extensive........

reposted as requested.......................

 

[ido_]

reposted as requested.......................

sorry, why would Israel initiate a war with Egypt when they are really after the Golan Heights ? Are you saying Levi Eskol didn't know how to use a map and a compass ?
Syria attacked Israel for 4 days before any Israeli stepped across the Israeli border, where is your proof that the government made a decision to attack because of some random Jews pressure and not by the fact that Israel was under attack for 4(!!!) days.

 

[sharon]

sorry, why would Israel initiate a war with Egypt when they are really after the Golan Heights ? Are you saying Levi Eskol didn't know how to use a map and a compass ?
Syria attacked Israel for 4 days before any Israeli stepped across the Israeli border, where is your proof that the government made a decision to attack because of some random Jews pressure and not by the fact that Israel was under attack for 4(!!!) days.

Syria and Egypt had a defense pac.......

I can only tell you what Moshe Dayan and Sharret said about their intentions and deliberate provocations before the war... but there is also ample evidence of their scheme to cause a civil war in Lebanon and install a mid level Christian military officer to run Lebanon.. someone who would be in their words.. "Israel friendly"...

Israel was never for a moment satisified with the land they were given in 1948.... They also wanted all of Jordan.. Chaim Weizmann was livid when Jordan was given to the Hashemite King.

Its a long and very deliberate story..

 

[EagleAye]

Syria and Egypt had a defense pac.......

I can only tell you what Moshe Dayan and Sharret said about their intentions and deliberate provocations before the war... but there is also ample evidence of their scheme to cause a civil war in Lebanon and install a mid level Christian military officer to run Lebanon.. someone who would be in their words.. "Israel friendly"...

Israel was never for a moment satisified with the land they were given in 1948.... They also wanted all of Jordan.. Chaim Weizmann was livid when Jordan was given to the Hashemite King.

Its a long and very deliberate story..

ALL of Jordan? Are you sure about that? Or are you referring to the West Bank?

 

[ido_]

Syria and Egypt had a defense pac.......

I can only tell you what Moshe Dayan and Sharret said about their intentions and deliberate provocations before the war... but there is also ample evidence of their scheme to cause a civil war in Lebanon and install a mid level Christian military officer to run Lebanon.. someone who would be in their words.. "Israel friendly"...

Israel was never for a moment satisified with the land they were given in 1948.... They also wanted all of Jordan.. Chaim Weizmann was livid when Jordan was given to the Hashemite King.

Its a long and very deliberate story..

Aha, so here's how things went:

The Israeli government coveted the Golan heights and after brainstorming they've come up with a brilliant plan -> lets attack Egypt with its enormous and superior army and then Syria will attack Israel and we could take the Golan heights, yeah! Why fight in one front when you can fight in two! The more the merrier!

Yea, I can see how this version of history makes sense
Of course the fact that Israel offered the Golan Heights back on June 19th is a bit confusing but if you smoked enough pot it will sound just as good as any other story

 

[sharon]

ALL of Jordan? Are you sure about that? Or are you referring to the West Bank?

All of what is now Jordan...

 

[sharon]

Aha, so here's how things went:

The Israeli government coveted the Golan heights and after brainstorming they've come up with a brilliant plan -> lets attack Egypt with its enormous and superior army and then Syria will attack Israel and we could take the Golan heights, yeah! Why fight in one front when you can fight in two! The more the merrier!

Yea, I can see how this version of history makes sense
Of course the fact that Israel offered the Golan Heights back on June 19th is a bit confusing but if you smoked enough pot it will sound just as good as any other story

Egypt was deployed in Yemen and unready for war......

 

[ido_]

Egypt was deployed in Yemen and unready for war......

Ah sure, so the fierce combats around Rafah were between the IDF and the muppets

 

[EagleAye]

Egypt was deployed in Yemen and unready for war......

You're forgetting this...again...

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades.
[...]
These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.

By contrast, Egypt had this in Yemen

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.

The vast majority of Egypt's army was deployed to attack Israel. They were EXTREMELY ready for war.

 

[sharon]

You're forgetting this...again...


By contrast, Egypt had this in Yemen


The vast majority of Egypt's army was deployed to attack Israel. They were EXTREMELY ready for war.

I can't prove those numbers are accurate.. but I do understand the method in starting a war and making it look like somebody else's fault... if you want international sympathy.

Look at Operation Susannah....... or the bombing of the SS Patria.

 

[EagleAye]

I can't prove those numbers are accurate.. but I do understand the method in starting a war and making it look like somebody else's fault... if you want international sympathy.

It's not asking for sympathy, it's trying to make you understand. Blockading a nation and then massing troops on its borders are NOT peaceful acts. These steps together are the prelude to war. These are the worldwide understood signals that war is about to begin. To believe otherwise is naivete on an astronomical scale.

 

[sharon]

It's not asking for sympathy, it's trying to make you understand. Blockading a nation and then massing troops on its borders are NOT peaceful acts. These steps together are the prelude to war. These are the worldwide understood signals that war is about to begin. To believe otherwise is naivete on an astronomical scale.

Except NO Israeli flagged vessel had passed thru the Strait of Tiran for 14 months before the blockade.. and the blockade was immediately followed by Nasser's request for a UN arbitration to resolve the matter.

Egypt was put in a terrible position because of the constant incursions into Syria and Lebanon.

 

[mbig]

Israel was never for a moment satisified with the land they were given in 1948.... They also wanted all of Jordan.. Chaim Weizmann was livid when Jordan was given to the Hashemite King.

Its a long and very deliberate story..

ALL of Jordan? Are you sure about that? Or are you referring to the West Bank?

All of what is now Jordan...

Yet another sharon Beauty.
It could be argued that Weizmann at one time wanted all of Palestine, including the West Bank, but NOT Jordan.

The The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement of 1919 would have left him quite happy and made a much larger homeland for the Jews.
The splitting off of Transjordan from the Mandate in 1922/3 Years later, would hardly have left him livid, if effected at all. He didn't want the whole mandate, just Maybe 'lesser' palestine.

Once again sharon has pulled absolute crap from her hat. Whatever is convenient to say at the time.. sharon says it.
It has no basis in reality.
This needs to stop.

 

[sharon]

Yet another sharon Beauty.
It could be argued that Weizmann at one time wanted all of Palestine, including the West Bank, but NOT Jordan.

The The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement of 1919 would have left him quite happy and made a much larger homeland for the Jews.

The splitting off of Transjordan, later Jordan would have had no effect on Weizmann.

Once again sharon has pulled absolute crap from her hat. Whatever is convenient to say at the time.. sharon says it.
It has no basis in reality.
This needs to stop.

Faisel was not in control of Arabia in 1919.. Ibn Saud was...........

In May 1919 and in 1920, Ibn Saud marched against the Rashids. He defeated them in November 1921, showed them clemency and reconciled with them, marrying the widow of their now dead ruler. His territory now extended north to territory that the British had given to the Hashemite brothers whom they had made kings of Transjordan and Iraq.

The Jordanian monarchy was set up in 1921, with the help of Britain. The sons of Sherif Hussein ibn Ali were set up as kings of Iraq and Jordan. In Jordan, Abdullah I was made Emir of Transjordan, a post he held from April 1921 until Transjordan was granted independence in May 1946 as the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan.

 

[mbig]

Faisel was not in control of Arabia in 1919.. Ibn Saud was...........

In May 1919 and in 1920, Ibn Saud marched against the Rashids. He defeated them in November 1921, showed them clemency and reconciled with them, marrying the widow of their now dead ruler. His territory now extended north to territory that the British had given to the Hashemite brothers whom they had made kings of Transjordan and Iraq.

The Jordanian monarchy was set up in 1921, with the help of Britain. The sons of Sherif Hussein ibn Ali were set up as kings of Iraq and Jordan. In Jordan, Abdullah I was made Emir of Transjordan, a post he held from April 1921 until Transjordan was granted independence in May 1946 as the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan.

Another Deflection attempt.
Deflection away from another Pulled-from-your-ass claim about "Weizman wanting all of Jordan" (too).

Your posts contain an Extraodinary amount of Convenient/PATHOLOGICAL Lying.
From 'Palestinian Stamps and Coins in 1880'... to "Jews for Justice" (ANYTHING with "Jews" and "Justice" in the name) being the "same organzation"!, to "Egypt having all it's Troops in Yemen in 1967", to your latest Absurd claim about 'Weizman having always wanted Jordan and being livid when it was given away'.

This Grotesque PATHOLOGICAL LYING Needs to stop.
This is Intolerable.


EDIT: The Below post ALSO does NOT justify sharon's Claim about 'Weizman wanting all of Jordan'.
It doesn't even mention his name! (at least not at the time of this edit)
It's just ANOTHER deflection from having gotten caught LYING again.

 

[sharon]

Another Deflection attempt.
Deflection away from another Pulled-from-your-ass claim about "Weizman wanting all of Jordan".

Your posts contain an Extraodinary amount of Conveneient/PATHOLOGICAL Lying.
From 'Palestinian Stamps and Coins in 1880... to "Jews for Justice" (ANYTHING with "Jews" and "Justice") being the "same organzation", to your latest Absurd claim about 'Weizman having always wanted Jordan and being livid when it was given away'.

This Grotesque PATHOLOGICAL LYING Needs to stop.
This is Intolerable.

As I said, the Hashemites were out of power in Arabia by 1919.

I am sorry you are upset.. Is it your position that no history is allowed except Zionist history?

You should realize that at the time of the Balfour Declaration (1917) the population of Palestine was about 600,000 people and 56,000 were Jews.. or ten percent of the population.

In 1923 ... resigning from Zionist Executive, Polish Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky calls for forcible colonization of Palestine and Transjordan.

In 1925 Jabotinsky formed Revisionist Party with aim of "revising" Mandate to include colonization of Transjordan.

 

[EagleAye]

As I said, the Hashemites were out of power in Arabia by 1919.

I am sorry you are upset.. Is it your position that no history is allowed except Zionist history?

You should realize that at the time of the Balfour Declaration (1917) the population of Palestine was about 600,000 people and 56,000 were Jews.. or ten percent of the population.

In 1923 ... resigning from Zionist Executive, Polish Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky calls for forcible colonization of Palestine and Transjordan.

In 1925 Jabotinsky formed Revisionist Party with aim of "revising" Mandate to include colonization of Transjordan.

What does any of this have to do with your claim that Weitzman wanted all of Jordan? You're talking about a different guy now!

Jabotinsky may have wanted all of Jordan, but (and this is significant), there was NO Israeli government in 1925. There was no Israel until 1948. So Jabotinsky may have wanted something but he did not represent the will of a nation...and especially one not even formed yet!

 

[sharon]

What does any of this have to do with your claim that Weitzman wanted all of Jordan? You're talking about a different guy now!

Jabotinsky may have wanted all of Jordan, but (and this is significant), there was NO Israeli government in 1925. There was no Israel until 1948. So Jabotinsky may have wanted something but he did not represent the will of a nation...and especially one not even formed yet!

in May 1937, Ben-Gurion had a meeting with some colleagues amongst whom was included Pinhas Rutenberg. Rutenberg was a Russo-Jewish electrical engineer and founder and director of the Palestine Electric Company, who had set up a hydro-electric power station in Transjordan to harness the waters of the upper Jordan and the Yarmuk rivers...At this meeting on 5 May, it was concluded that “We see need...to pressure the British Government” on the possibility of Jewish settlement in Transjordan...

At that time [July 1937], there were already a number of Jewish settlements on the eastern side of the River Jordan. These were situated between the Sea of Galilee and the junction between the Jordan and Yarmuk Rivers. Geographically, these settlements were in Transjordan, but in fact this small area of land was outside the boundaries of Transjordan as they had been fixed in 1922. According to the Peel Commission's recommendations the area of these settlements was to become part of the Arab State and its Jewish inhabitants transferred to the Jewish State. The Zionists made an immediate appeal for this small area to be incorporated within the boundaries of the Jewish State.(87) However, as Ben-Gurion noted in his diary, “In the event of the compulsory transfer being rejected by the Government, we will remain in Transjordan - even if the border suggested by the Commission, north of the Yarmuk-Jordan junction is not rectified.”(88)

There's much more availalbe if you like.

My Right Word: Transjordan?

 

[EagleAye]

in May 1937, Ben-Gurion had a meeting with some colleagues amongst whom was included Pinhas Rutenberg. Rutenberg was a Russo-Jewish electrical engineer and founder and director of the Palestine Electric Company, who had set up a hydro-electric power station in Transjordan to harness the waters of the upper Jordan and the Yarmuk rivers...At this meeting on 5 May, it was concluded that “We see need...to pressure the British Government” on the possibility of Jewish settlement in Transjordan...

At that time [July 1937], there were already a number of Jewish settlements on the eastern side of the River Jordan. These were situated between the Sea of Galilee and the junction between the Jordan and Yarmuk Rivers. Geographically, these settlements were in Transjordan, but in fact this small area of land was outside the boundaries of Transjordan as they had been fixed in 1922. According to the Peel Commission's recommendations the area of these settlements was to become part of the Arab State and its Jewish inhabitants transferred to the Jewish State. The Zionists made an immediate appeal for this small area to be incorporated within the boundaries of the Jewish State.(87) However, as Ben-Gurion noted in his diary, “In the event of the compulsory transfer being rejected by the Government, we will remain in Transjordan - even if the border suggested by the Commission, north of the Yarmuk-Jordan junction is not rectified.”(88)

There's much more availalbe if you like.
My Right Word: Transjordan?

Okay, you're talking about yet another person, but at least this time Ben-Gurion had something to do with the future Israeli leadership. Unfortunately, he's talking about settlements on the other side of the Jordan river, NOT the entirety of Jordan/Transjordan. And these wishes are expressed before the formation of the nation of Israel and three Decades Before the 1967 war.

Yes, I would like more, but something that supports your claim the Israel wanted ALL of Jordan. So far, I'm not seeing anything to support it.

And I still say attacking a vastly superior military in Egypt is a bizarre (read: impossible) way to make a land grab in Jordan.

 

[sharon]

Okay, you're talking about yet another person, but at least this time Ben-Gurion had something to do with the future Israeli leadership. Unfortunately, he's talking about settlements on the other side of the Jordan river, NOT the entirety of Jordan/Transjordan. And these wishes are expressed before the formation of the nation of Israel and three Decades Before the 1967 war.

Yes, I would like more, but something that supports your claim the Israel wanted ALL of Jordan. So far, I'm not seeing anything to support it.

And I still say attacking a vastly superior military in Egypt is a bizarre (read: impossible) way to make a land grab in Jordan.

Here:

http://chaimsimons.net/transfer04.html

Ben Gurion wanted a Jewish majority on both sides of the Jordan because it would be to difficult to expel the Palestinians after statehood.

 

[Wiggen]

The Six Day War was completely unnecessary.. .. and Nasser was on the defensive.. Israel didn't have a bloody thing that Egypt wanted..

Nasser was on the defensive? Really? In May of 1967 Nasser amassed 100,000 troops, 950 tanks, and 1,000 artillery pieces in the Sinai. He kicked UN observers out and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping on May 19th. On May 27th, he stated "Our object will be the destruction of Israel". Parallel with this, Syria had 75,000 troops on the Syrian border and Jordan another 55,000 and 300 tanks on their border, awaiting the orders to attack.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your problem here, Sharon, is that you simply have decided to re-write history in order to satisfy your own prejudices. You are incredibly ill-informed on the 1967 war to the extent that it's almost useless debating with you. It's like trying to teach card tricks to a beagle.

 

[sharon]

Nasser was on the defensive? Really? In May of 1967 Nasser amassed 100,000 troops, 950 tanks, and 1,000 artillery pieces in the Sinai. He kicked UN observers out and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping on May 19th. On May 27th, he stated "Our object will be the destruction of Israel". Parallel with this, Syria had 75,000 troops on the Syrian border and Jordan another 55,000 and 300 tanks on their border, awaiting the orders to attack.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your problem here, Sharon, is that you simply have decided to re-write history in order to satisfy your own prejudices. You are incredilby ill-informed on the 1967 war to the extent that it's almost useless debating with you. It's like trying to teach card tricks to a beagle.

You and I don't know whether or not those numbers are accurate... but we do know that there were dozens of ethnic cleansing and expulsion plans between 1895 and 1945.

I got caught in the 1967 war because I had gone to Rome with my mother.. She needed dental work.. and we couldn't get home.

It was a complete ambush..

 

[EagleAye]

Here:

http://chaimsimons.net/transfer04.html

Ben Gurion wanted a Jewish majority on both sides of the Jordan because it would be to difficult to expel the Palestinians after statehood.

So what we can see from your link, and in the quotes below, is that Ben-Gurion planned on purchasing land from the Arabs in the Negev. Further, he planned to buy lands in Transjordan to provide a home for the Arabs they purchased land from. I've never heard of anyone buying a house, and then also buying a house for the same people they buy a house from! This is incredibly generous. It also proves that Jewish interest in land in Transjordan was NOT for the Jews themselves, but on behalf of Arabs!

“Mr. Ben-Gurion asked whether the Government would make it possible for Arab cultivators displaced through Jewish land purchase in western Palestine to be settled in Transjordan”, adding that if Transjordan was closed to Jewish settlement, it surely could not be closed to Arabs.(69) The High Commissioner thought that this was “a good idea”
[...]
Shertok “remarked that the Jewish colonising agencies were in any case spending money in providing for the tenants or cultivators who had to be shifted as a result of Jewish land purchase either by the payment of compensation or through the provision of alternative land. They would gladly spend that money on the settlement of these people in Transjordan.
[...]
In a report on the meeting made to the Jewish Agency Executive on the following day by Ben-Gurion himself, he said that he had told the High Commissioner that “if at present Jews are not permitted to settle in Transjordan; at least give us permission to purchase land in Transjordan and settle there Arabs from Palestine from whom we are buying land.”(71)

Ben-Gurion wanted to help the Arabs moving to Transjordan, but desired that the transfer be voluntary.

Ben-Gurion commented that although at that period “the idea of transfer of population is steadily gaining in popularity ... it would, however, be unsafe and unwise on our part to advocate, or even expect, a compulsory transfer of Arabs from Palestine.”

There were Jewish settlements East of the Jordan but they weren't technically part of Transjordan, so there was no violation. Eventually they were forced out anyway.

At that time, there were already a number of Jewish settlements on the eastern side of the River Jordan. These were situated between the Sea of Galilee and the junction between the Jordan and Yarmuk Rivers. Geographically, these settlements were in Transjordan, but in fact this small area of land was outside the boundaries of Transjordan as they had been fixed in 1922. According to the Peel Commission's recommendations the area of these settlements was to become part of the Arab State and its Jewish inhabitants transferred to the Jewish State.

Thanks for providing the link. It has provided proof exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.

 

[sharon]

So what we can see from your link, and in the quotes below, is that Ben-Gurion planned on purchasing land from the Arabs in the Negev. Further, he planned to buy lands in Transjordan to provide a home for the Arabs they purchased land from. I've never heard of anyone buying a house, and then also buying a house for the same people they buy a house from! This is incredibly generous. It also proves that Jewish interest in land in Transjordan was NOT for the Jews themselves, but on behalf of Arabs!



Ben-Gurion wanted to help the Arabs moving to Transjordan, but desired that the transfer be voluntary.


There were Jewish settlements East of the Jordan but they weren't technically part of Transjordan, so there was no violation. Eventually they were forced out anyway.



Thanks for providing the link. It has provided proof exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.

You should read it again.. They wanted a Jewish majority on BOTH sides of the Jordan..

Are you familiar with the research of Rabbi Chaim Simmons? There were dozens of expulsion schemes bwtween 1895 and 1948.. .. which should raise questions for you as to the Arab population of Palestine.

If there were NO people in Palestine , why would the Zionists have been so eager to expel them??

 

[EagleAye]

You should read it again.. They wanted a Jewish majority on BOTH sides of the Jordan..

How about you show us where you saw this. I read through the doc (even provided quotes from it) and saw nothing about that.

And who said there was no Arab population in Palestine? I didn't. I didn't see anyone else claiming that either. The quotes I provided in the previous post show the Jews were trying to handle the Arab migration as amicably as possible.