Texas Teachers and Concealed Carry

[Linc]

Yes I am a retired Chemistry/Physics teacher from Illinois where we became the last State to get CC.
I've been the one of the biggest supporters on this board for Teachers/Admins/Custodians/Secretaries/Coaches to CC at school.
Much to the chagrin of my wife who hasn't retired yet and many of my left-wing friends.
I will never open up with my worst nightmares of what could happen at school.

I'll admit I changed forever after Sandy Hook--along with coming on dp two months later and realizing what a gun board it is.
And through what I have learned from gun experts on this board.

Teachers should most definitely have the opportunity to "Teach and Protect".
Staff Must Be Licensed And Pass A Psych Evaluation.

Mike Huckabee was very professional throughout this segment and all his segments on FOX and Friends this AM.
However, the "Leg" chair said the Left is complaining about Teachers and CC in Texas.
I'm viewed as being from the "Left"--do I sound like I'm complaining?

Home rule of schools is the best rule of law there is IMHO.
School Boards don't even have to ID which Teachers are CC in some states--though I'm unsure of Texas law.

I've put up many links in the past on this subject--and will try to track more down.
Please feel free to post any links supporting CC or objecting to it, along with your thoughts .

 

[WCH]

Comes down to the old saying...

"Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"

In this day and time, it's logical and reasonable to be prepared.

 

[ttwtt78640]

It makes sense to give a small bump in pay to CC teachers as opposed to adding armed school security (only) personnel. School security personnel do absolutely nothing 99% of the time and yet must be paid for all of that time. Adding a collateral duty (for a modest pay increase) to existing personnel is a wiser move than adding more personnel IMHO.

 

[Linc]

It makes sense to give a small bump in pay to CC teachers as opposed to adding armed school security (only) personnel. School security personnel do absolutely nothing 99% of the time and yet must be paid for all of that time. Adding a collateral duty (for a modest pay increase) to existing personnel is a wiser move than adding more personnel IMHO.

After all, many of the teachers have to pay quite a bit to get licensed, which I believe the BOE should pick up.
Not to mention the cost of the gun, which is probably on the teacher.
And then there's the price of the psych evaluation.
And continual meetings on CC during preparation periods and before/after school .

 

[TeleKat]

Teachers should be able to CC in school so long as they can legally carry elsewhere. If they have a permit, I don't see why not. Armed teachers would save money (less money being spent on security guards) and maybe even save lives.

 

[Linc]

Here's the first video I could find--it's from NBC.

Teachers can carry guns in Texas schools - Video on NBCNews.com

For some reason, the original video won't come up.
Will try to replace link with a new one.

 

[Cryptic]

Teachers should most definitely have the opportunity to "Teach and Protect".
Staff Must Be Licensed And Pass A Psych Evaluation.

Teachers should be able to CC in school so long as they can legally carry elsewhere. If they have a permit, I don't see why not. Armed teachers would save money (less money being spent on security guards) and maybe even save lives.

And they must also be trained as to what that weapon is for (defense againt active shooter- period). The ability to carry a weapon does not extend their authority, or tranform them into a peace officer.

In short, they need trained and re-trained to avoid Zimmerman, Fergurson, Boom Box Dunn and the popcorn shooter type situations. Otherwise, there is a real potential for weapons escalations between teachers and students, or more likely- teachers and some parents.

Hoepfully, the natural question of: If the teachers are allowed to bring weapons to school, and I think one is going to misuse it against my son, why cant he carry a defensive weapon? And, why cant I cc when I attend the meeting with the principal? wont get asked that much.

 

[Linc]

This link shows four USA maps, one showing TEN states allowing certain personnel to carry firearms/weapons.

http://www.online.wsj.com/articles/more-texas-schools-allow-employees-1408986620

Then drop down on the frontier page .

 

[lizzie]

I have absolutely no problems with arming teachers, as long as the arms are never within reach of the students, and the teachers are proficient with guns, including safety aspects of shooting.

 

[Cryptic]

I have absolutely no problems with arming teachers, as long as the arms are never within reach of the students, and the teachers are proficient with guns.

What about students in case a teacher tries a Fergurson or Zimmerman type action against a student? Also, what about parents- if they feel threatned or intimidated at a meeting and know that the staff is armed?

I am not opposed to the concept of armed teachers. I am stating, however, is that a blanket: "If you have a carry permit, then you can carry while performing your school duties" is far too broad. There is an awful lot of potential for a Zimmerman, Fergurson, or Boom Box Dunn, type occurances at schools.

I would advocate that nobody actually carries a weapon at the school. Rather, a weapon is available if needed and can be retrieved quickly by a specially trained person from a locked box. No active shooter? Then that box stays locked- period. If the weapon is retrieved, then if must be documented.

This will limit a teacher from going "Z-man". Or an escalating macho conflict is resolved by the teacher falling back on their weapon (Fergurson).

 

[Joe Steel]

Concealed gun laws promote gun proliferation and that makes gun killing more likely. At the margin, having a gun near-by in a tense situation increases the chance of someone shooting someone. Putting guns into schools mean the victims are likely to be children.

 

[Thom Paine]

Concealed gun laws promote gun proliferation and that makes gun killing more likely. At the margin, having a gun near-by in a tense situation increases the chance of someone shooting someone. Putting guns into schools mean the victims are likely to be children.

Without armed protection it is guaranteed the victims will be children.

Allow the teachers to be armed.

 

[Joe Steel]

Without armed protection it is guaranteed the victims will be children.

Allow the teachers to be armed.

I'll admit arming school staff may seem like a solution to the problem but that's only because of the culture we've allowed the NRA to create. Had we not allowed them to propagate guns and gun lust through American culture, we would be plagued by a segment of the population which believes gun killing is the answer to every slight, real or imagined. We have to be change that mindset. We have to return to a time when we had a clear perspective on the reality of everyday life. We gave to put aside the gun mythology of the NRA.

 

[Thom Paine]

I'll admit arming school staff may seem like a solution to the problem but that's only because of the culture we've allowed the NRA to create. Had we not allowed them to propagate guns and gun lust through American culture, we would be plagued by a segment of the population which believes gun killing is the answer to every slight, real or imagined. We have to be change that mindset. We have to return to a time when we had a clear perspective on the reality of everyday life. We gave to put aside the gun mythology of the NRA.

Ours is not an NRA propagated gun culture. do you not believe in the personal right and duty to self defense of your and others' existence?

I do; by the most efficient means available.

If you choose not to defend yourself and others, so be it; it is your right.

I choose differently as is my right.

Thom Paine

 

[Beaudreaux]

In my county here in NC, each High School has a sworn, armed officer (a county police officer) assigned to each school. They are called "Resource Officers" and are on campus before the first student arrives in the morning until the last student leaves (including after school events and sports games) Some of the middle schools also have them - the middle schools in bad areas - but not all of them do. None... NONE of the elementary schools have any protection on campus.

I have no problem with CCW for teachers that pass the course and are mature and stable enough to do so. I also don't have a problem with custodial staff and other staff having CCW as well, especially in the schools that do not have a resource officer.

There are two high schools (out of 11) in my county that cannot go a week without at least one student being taken to jail for fighting or something else. Sometimes they can't even go one day. One is less than a mile from my house, so we hear about it even if the local news doesn't report it. In fact, there are times when a news crew just hangs around waiting for something to happen. And, it's only getting worse. In case you're wondering, yes... there have been shots fired there a few of times. They find guns in lockers, in students cars and even on some of the students at times. The area of the district I live in has two bad neighborhoods that back up against each other - one is poor farming community with racist white trash idiots, and the other is what we call "cracktown" that is a high crime majority black area. I never could understand why they put those two communities into the same school. Just dumb. I know of a few teachers that CCW at school. The police know, but do nothing, which I am fine with, even though here in NC, schools are a gun free zone for everyone except police.

 

[blackjack50]

It makes sense to give a small bump in pay to CC teachers as opposed to adding armed school security (only) personnel. School security personnel do absolutely nothing 99% of the time and yet must be paid for all of that time. Adding a collateral duty (for a modest pay increase) to existing personnel is a wiser move than adding more personnel IMHO.

I disagree. A little.

School security duties should entail parking lot duties (making sure kids don't get run over). Reviewing and revising evacuation plans for ANY incident. Maintaining CPR/first aid/aed certs for teachers (so teaching). Keeping tabs on student activities (so providing security for games and keeping an eye on "gang" activity). Keeping up to date on social media. Involvement in ANY kind of dispute or parent teacher conference.

There are a thousand roles security can fill. They just don't because it isn't not expected of them. School security needs to include student physical and emotional/mental safety. Perhaps spiritual safety if one feels that kids religion or lack thereof should be protected as well.

That means it isn't just about arming teachers with guns. It is about putting teachers into security, and arming security AND teachers with knowledge. Information is power.

 

[Cryptic]

Without armed protection it is guaranteed the victims will be children.

Allow the teachers to be armed.

I agree, but it should not be a blanket "if you have a CC permit- then you are good to go"

Allowing teacher with a CC permit to carry at school drastically increases the potential for a Z-man situation, a boom box Dunn event, or a Fergurson, or an escalating situation where a parent also brings a weapon to counter the teacher's weapon. At the end of the day, maturity is not a requirement to obtain a CC permit, nor is it a must have to be a teacher.

The best solution is for the school to keep weapons secured in a strong box that certain staff have access to. Those weapons are only to stop an active shooter. If there is no active shooter, then that weapons stays in the strong box. In short, the weapons kept there are not fall back measures for other discipline problems. Or a mentality like: Jack is acting up again, he is large, but unarmed. I am still going to get the weapon before I deal with him.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I disagree. A little.

School security duties should entail parking lot duties (making sure kids don't get run over). Reviewing and revising evacuation plans for ANY incident. Maintaining CPR/first aid/aed certs for teachers (so teaching). Keeping tabs on student activities (so providing security for games and keeping an eye on "gang" activity). Keeping up to date on social media. Involvement in ANY kind of dispute or parent teacher conference.

There are a thousand roles security can fill. They just don't because it isn't not expected of them. School security needs to include student physical and emotional/mental safety. Perhaps spiritual safety if one feels that kids religion or lack thereof should be protected as well.

That means it isn't just about arming teachers with guns. It is about putting teachers into security, and arming security AND teachers with knowledge. Information is power.

I agree that teachers alone are not (and should not be) responsible for general security/discipline - that is (or should be) a collateral duty of the school administrators, councilors and their staff. My point is that the response to armed assailants (including mass shooters) is rare enough to be handled by CC teachers (supported/trained by local LEOs).

 

[Thom Paine]

I agree, but it should not be a blanket "if you have a CC permit- then you are good to go"

Allowing teacher with a CC permit to carry at school drastically increases the potential for a Z-man situation, a boom box Dunn event, or a Fergurson, or an escalating situation where a parent also brings a weapon to counter the teacher's weapon. At the end of the day, maturity is not a requirement to obtain a CC permit, nor is it a must have to be a teacher.

The best solutiion is for the school to keep weapons secured in a strong box that certain staff have access to. Those weapons are only to stop an active shooter. If there is no active shooter, then that weapons stays in the strong box. In short, the weapons kept there are not fall back measures for other discipline problems.

Howdy Cryptic

Hmmm, maybe .... a bio-metric locked single vault on/or in a teacher's desk, ... maybe. They need to be readily accessible to be an effective deterrent.

CnC does allow for full concealment and not knowing who might be armed is a great deterrent also. School districts now allowing such are requiring some extensive training in firearms usage; as they should.

Certain areas, due to restrictions, have become guaranteed free fire zones; that guarantee needs to be replaced with uncertainty for a potential miscreant.

Celebrate something today Cryptic

Thom Paine

 

[lizzie]

I The best solution is for the school to keep weapons secured in a strong box that certain staff have access to. Those weapons are only to stop an active shooter. If there is no active shooter, then that weapons stays in the strong box. In short, the weapons kept there are not fall back measures for other discipline problems. Or a mentality like: Jack is acting up again, he is large, but unarmed. I am still going to get the weapon before I deal with him.

No, the bolded is not likely at all. You can't legitimately compare a teacher to a Zimmerman. Teachers have a personality which tends to be nurturing and parental, not that of a superhero.

As for the CCP issue, those who have the permit have already shown proficiency in shooting, and in the legal aspects of using them.

 

[Cryptic]

No, the bolded is not likely at all. You can't legitimately compare a teacher to a Zimmerman. Teachers have a personality which tends to be nurturing and parental, not that of a superhero.

As for the CCP issue, those who have the permit have already shown proficiency in shooting, and in the legal aspects of using them.

Good grief....Teachers are human. They should not be demonized nor romanticized. Yes, some do have maturity problems.

Also, a weapons permit is no way means that one is proficient and shooting and does not mean that one is profocient in the legal aspects of using that weapon (ask Boom Box Dunn). Rather, it simply means that one has met at least minimal standards in handling the weapon (those standards are minimal), and has been informed of the legal aspects.

In short, allowing a blanket policy of: "All you need is a CCP, you are good to go" is a receipe for another Z-man or Fergurson- especially rougher high schools where confrontations are more common.

Howdy Cryptic

Hmmm, maybe .... a bio-metric locked single vault on/or in a teacher's desk, ... maybe. They need to be readily accessible to be an effective deterrent.

I am thinking in the adminsitrative offices and one at another back up location.

 

[lizzie]

Good grief....Teachers are human. They should not be demonized nor romanticized. Yes, some do have maturity problems.

Also, a weapons permit is no way means that one is proficient and shooting and does not mean that one is profocient in the legal aspects of using that weapon (ask Boom Box Dunn). Rather, it simply means that one has met at least minimal standards in handling the weapon (those standards are minimal), and has been informed of the legal aspects.

In short, allowing a blanket policy of: "All you need is a CCP, you are good to go" is a receipe for another Z-man or Fergurson- especially rougher high schools where confrontations are more common.



I am thinking in the adminsitrative offices and one at another back up location.

Any evidence to back up the bolded?

 

[Cryptic]

Any evidence to back up the bolded?

Not sure I understand your question.

I went to a rough middle school and a rougher high school. There were plenty of confontations student on student and student on staff (less common)- take my word for it.

In short, there was alot of potential for escalation if an immature, or barely trained permit carrier was added to the mix.

 

[Joe Steel]

Ours is not an NRA propagated gun culture. do you not believe in the personal right and duty to self defense of your and others' existence?

I do; by the most efficient means available.

If you choose not to defend yourself and others, so be it; it is your right.

I choose differently as is my right.

Thom Paine

A large part of the reason you feel the need to defend yourself is caused by the gun culture the NRA has created. That's the problem.

 

[Thom Paine]

A large part of the reason you feel the need to defend yourself is caused by the gun culture the NRA has created. That's the problem.

WRONG ! On both reason and the phony attribution to NRA gun culture.

I have a responsibility and duty to defend myself and others if within personal capability. If another chooses not to defend himself out of naivety or fear of responsibility, then so be it.
To iterate... I choose differently.