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Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual assaul

Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Women who don't want to be beaten do not deserve to be subjected to sexual against their will.

You're basically saying that society owes a rape victim nothing, that the burden of proof is on the rape victim to make their accusations actionable in any capacity. I disagree.

Your idea of a presumption of guilt for (only?) rape sickens me. I realize that you have good intentions but it is nonsense to give the accuser that much power over the accused in any criminal matter.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Depends on the extent of the asking. Who decides when it's too much, the person who is "continually" asking, or the person who is "continually" saying no?

The person who is continually saying no obviously. They can always tell the person who continually asks to stop. If someone is in a relationship (friends or romantically involved) where they are continually pressured to do something they do not want then they should reevaluate the type of people they associate with.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Your idea of a presumption of guilt for (only?) rape sickens me. I realize that you have good intentions but it is nonsense to give the accuser that much power over the accused in any criminal matter.

You are very confused. I am not arguing that there is a presumption of guilt. I am explaining that a rape victim is not expected to fulfill the role of law enforcement. That's not a reasonable expectation.

There is already a great deal of "power" in an accusation. That's because we generally don't ignore serious accusations, we evaluate them. False allegations are their own problem, and they should not be used as excuses to ignore known issues.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

What's your solution? Ignore the slippery slope?

At some point, too much persuasion becomes too much. Who determines where it stops, the aggressor or the resistor?

People get pressured all the time about a myriad of things. It's a fact of life. Why do we treat this differently. Teach women to stick to their guns. As long as the pressuring doesn't turn into harassment or threats or use of force, all of whcih are already illegal, why do anything else?

I'm assuming you'd leave the decision with the resistor. In that case I'd see it as unfair to the aggressor because he or she has no idea where the the line is and at what point their behavior becomes something that can get them expelled.
 
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Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

It's difficult to balance the competing goals of protecting the innocent from counterfactual accusations and of protecting the victims from their assailants. It's not easy to decide what to do in the absence of information. I don't think schools should be expected to have the exact same burden of doubt as criminal charges, as i consider criminal charges to be more serious.

This goes back to my original criticism. What of President Obama's guidance is Betsy DeVos rolling back, what changes does she plan to make? Her speech was heavy on cherry picked examples and light on specific policy direction. I think it's good for colleges to be reluctant to sweep allegations of sexual assault under the rug. Those are serious allegations and they shouldn't be ignored.

Fair enough. I agree that college sexual assault needs to be dealt with. My own opinion is that it's no different that any other sexual assault that happens and should be handled by the police. The school's role should be to offer counseling and guidance to the victim including telling them to file a criminal complaint.

Sexual assault is hard to prove because it usually happens without witnesses. I don't know how to deal with that while trying to respect our tradition not wanting to punish innocent people. I guess at the end of the day our differences lie in you feeling the bigger wrong is letting a sexual abuser get away with it while I view punishing an innocent person as the bigger wrong.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

People get pressured all the time about a myriad of things. It's a fact of life. Why do we treat this differently.

Because we have an epidemic of alcohol driven date rape that is harming our citizens, particularly with regard to college students.

Teach women to stick to their guns. As long as the pressuring doesn't turn into harassment or threats or use of force, all of whcih are already illegal, why do anything else?

When does it transition to harassment? At what point? Three "no"s? Eight? Three hundred?

What's the number where the advances must stop?

I'm assuming you'd leave the decision with the resistor. In that case I'd see it as unfair to the aggressor because he or she has no idea where the the line is and at what point their behavior becomes something that can get them expelled.

Not entirely. They are both responsible to communicate and to respect the communications of the other.

This is where lefties tend to produce unrealistic sounding proposals to guarantee consent. I don't think those things are necessary. I just think young kids don't know the strength of their own hormones and they should face discipline for the consequences of their behavior.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Fair enough. I agree that college sexual assault needs to be dealt with. My own opinion is that it's no different that any other sexual assault that happens and should be handled by the police. The school's role should be to offer counseling and guidance to the victim including telling them to file a criminal complaint.

Sexual assault is hard to prove because it usually happens without witnesses. I don't know how to deal with that while trying to respect our tradition not wanting to punish innocent people. I guess at the end of the day our differences lie in you feeling the bigger wrong is letting a sexual abuser get away with it while I view punishing an innocent person as the bigger wrong.

Once a student reports that another student sexually assaulted them, the college may decide to take immediate steps to separate the two students.

Yes, that may be claimed to harm the potential victims of false allegations, but that's we owe the potential victims of sexual assault a response to their report.

Long term consequences like expulsion are more severe and i'm not sophisticated enough to define exactly what the "preponderance of evidence" standard is.

Some punishment of presumed innocent people occurs already. Suspects are placed under arrest and jailed. The presumption of innocence applies to criminal law and criminal punishment. Criminal punishments can restrict our fundamental rights.

The school oversees a very small community where the students interact with one another. Being a part of such a community is a privilege, not a right, so removal from such a community is not a restriction of fundamental rights.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

You are very confused. I am not arguing that there is a presumption of guilt. I am explaining that a rape victim is not expected to fulfill the role of law enforcement. That's not a reasonable expectation.

There is already a great deal of "power" in an accusation. That's because we generally don't ignore serious accusations, we evaluate them. False allegations are their own problem, and they should not be used as excuses to ignore known issues.

That (bolded above) is a lame deflection. You have repeatedly asserted that college staff are expected to fill that investigative role as well as the role of prosecutor, judge and jury. You further asserted that kicking folks out of college with no criminal conviction was not akin to a sentence for presumed guilt but rather a "proper response" to a rape or sexual assault allegation. Don't try to dance around the fact that you find that to be "necessary" collateral damage in the noble quest for reducing sexual assaults on campus. It is not "ignoring the issue" to say that using the criminal justice system is the only way to assure due process for criminal allegations.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

There will always be assholes. There is just so much crap in the world, it has to come out somewhere. I remember it was not that long ago another asshole said that he could shoot someone on 5Th Avenue in New York and not loose support. That asshole became President.

:roll:
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

That (bolded above) is a lame deflection. You have repeatedly asserted that college staff are expected to fill that investigative role as well as the role of prosecutor, judge and jury.

Can you be honest here?

I am not saying that the college should be imprisoning or executing people. The college is NOT playing the role of the justice system. What they are expected to do is manage their small, privileged community with respect to serious claims of misbehavior like sexual assault. You seem to think that they should be unable to do anything when a student files an official complaint against another. That is bull**** and you should know that.

Students get written up, suspended, expelled, etc. at k-12 schools all the time, are you going to lie and tell me that they're playing the role of prosecutor, judge, and jury? Those schools are changing school policies, they are not enacting criminal punishments.

You further asserted that kicking folks out of college with no criminal conviction was not akin to a sentence for presumed guilt but rather a "proper response" to a rape or sexual assault allegation.

Not necessarily, it's up to the school to weigh the evidence and render its own judgement. Since i don't work in the administration of a college nor do i study those who do, i'm certainly able to let them have the freedom to do their jobs.

You seem to have no issue letting colleges sweep allegations of sexual assault under the rug. That is certainly not the "proper response" when student safety is whatsoever a priority.

Don't try to dance around the fact that you find that to be "necessary" collateral damage in the noble quest for reducing sexual assaults on campus. It is not "ignoring the issue" to say that using the criminal justice system is the only way to assure due process for criminal allegations.

Yes it is. It is absolutely ignoring the issue.

The issue is when we don't necessarily have enough information to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt". You don't even seem to recognize the possibility that a drunk aggressor might have unintentionally raped a drunk victim. That happens when the victim gives in to the pressure. You point to corner cases on the other end of the spectrum, but that's irrelevant. I'm not talking about those cases. I'm talking about the ones you're struggling to ignore for no discernible reason.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Can you be honest here?

I am not saying that the college should be imprisoning or executing people. The college is NOT playing the role of the justice system. What they are expected to do is manage their small, privileged community with respect to serious claims of misbehavior like sexual assault. You seem to think that they should be unable to do anything when a student files an official complaint against another. That is bull**** and you should know that.

Students get written up, suspended, expelled, etc. at k-12 schools all the time, are you going to lie and tell me that they're playing the role of prosecutor, judge, and jury? Those schools are changing school policies, they are not enacting criminal punishments.



Not necessarily, it's up to the school to weigh the evidence and render its own judgement. Since i don't work in the administration of a college nor do i study those who do, i'm certainly able to let them have the freedom to do their jobs.

You seem to have no issue letting colleges sweep allegations of sexual assault under the rug. That is certainly not the "proper response" when student safety is whatsoever a priority.



Yes it is. It is absolutely ignoring the issue.

The issue is when we don't necessarily have enough information to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt". You don't even seem to recognize the possibility that a drunk aggressor might have unintentionally raped a drunk victim. That happens when the victim gives in to the pressure. You point to corner cases on the other end of the spectrum, but that's irrelevant. I'm not talking about those cases. I'm talking about the ones you're struggling to ignore for no discernible reason.

I suppose we will have to simply agree to disagree on this issue. The problem, as I have noted, is the lack of any avenue of an appeals process except to get a judge involved at the expense of the accused. That is not justice, IMHO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...27c98455440_story.html?utm_term=.a76773b9c18d

http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...0-m-after-expulsion-sexual-assault/323062001/
 
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Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

I suppose we will have to simply agree to disagree on this issue. The problem, as I have noted, is the lack of any avenue of an appeals process except to get a judge involved at the expense of the accused. That is not justice, IMHO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...27c98455440_story.html?utm_term=.a76773b9c18d

Former student sues Vanderbilt for $10M after expulsion for sexual assault

It's not supposed to be justice, it's the management of a small, select community that has a strong obligation to protect its vulnerable members: the students.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

It's not supposed to be justice, it's the management of a small, select community that has a strong obligation to protect its vulnerable members: the students.

Fine, so long as it affords equal protection, with full due process, and is not just some agenda driven campaign designed to show that the campus is "taking action".
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Fine, so long as it affords equal protection, with full due process, and is not just some agenda driven campaign designed to show that the campus is "taking action".

I agree. The process should be secured to respect both parties.

Going back to DeVos, i have no guidance for how she's going to do that from her speech. I heard a lot of picked cherries but not a lot of details for what she wanted to change. Simply going back toward the model of sweeping these allegations under the rug and refusing to do anything about them is not a model that i'm going to agree with.
 
Re: Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual as

Texas prof resigns from law firm after tweeting he'd be 'ok' with DeVos sexual assault

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ting-hed-be-ok-with-devos-sexual-assault.html


In the long run, these cheap shots don't pay off. But if the haters keep hating, I don't mind seeing them resign from their jobs, as a continual lesson to everyone.

What an asshole, there is no justification to say it is OK for somebody to be sexually assaulted. An idiot like this should never be allowed to work for a law firm ever again IMHO.

The only good thing is that he resigned and showed at least a modicum of decency. But he is sadly not alone, idiots like this are a dime a dozen.
 
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