Teacher beat to death by mob of Muslim students in her classroom

[Dr_Patrick]

From what I've read ISLAM experienced a wave of converstions post 9/11 within the US. So I have to question the motives of those who converted. It's hard not to believe that many of them feel or remember being oppressed by our government and therefore they find it pleasing to form an alliance with the enemy. I find your view, that they witnessed 9/11, and converted in mass because they are peace loving rather hard to swallow. :roll:

Who knows what their motives were? Why assume that it is because they wanted to form an alliance with the extremists that caused 9/11? Even if there were only two peaceful Muslims in the world, your judgment of Muslims as a whole would not be valid. It's this kind of simplistic thinking that is tearing the world apart. Things are never that simple.

 

[rivrrat]

Conversions abroad I can understand. Conversions in mass in the US post 9/11 are mind boggling.

Actually I can completely understand it. After 9/11, I sought to learn more about Islam myself, since it's a religion/mythology that I didn't really spend much time on studying prior to that. I study a lot of them, but mostly what would be considered "ancient" since that's my particular interest. (Celtic, Egyptian, Nordic, Greek, Roman, Native American, etc)

But, 9/11 gave me a reason to be interested in Islam and learn more about it. So I did. I can completely understand others doing the same and finding a belief system that they agreed with, and that they were perhaps previously ignorant of. So the conversions really aren't mind boggling to me at all.

 

[talloulou]

Who knows what their motives were? Why assume that it is because they wanted to form an alliance with the extremists that caused 9/11? Even if there were only two peaceful Muslims in the world, your judgment of Muslims as a whole would not be valid. It's this kind of simplistic thinking that is tearing the world apart. Things are never that simple.

I find the statement in bold to be preposterous! :rofl

 

[MSgt]

Conversions abroad I can understand. Conversions in mass in the US post 9/11 are mind boggling.

I don't think it is really enmass. It's just in focus. But these conversions aren't a problem. These are people that were raised in an American robust society. Also, consider the elements of where this conversion is coming from. Defying the government has always been the position of poor blacks in America. Today, Islam is just the form in which that descent is manifested. With strong heroes like Muhammed Ali and Malcom X the youth follow in footsteps. Now, sure some are sincere. But I suspect much of it is fad, just like an adherence to the latest Rapper.

Hell, when Hollywood released Malcom X, half of my ship all of sudden stopped eating pork.

 

[Ikari]

The fact that you say they are being "abused" by madmen sounds sympathetic and apologetic! It also suggests that the terrorists are simple minded puppets with no real agenda of their own. I think that's underestimating them and a bit insulting to boot. There are large numbers of Islamic clerics and religious heads calling for WAR with the west so that puts the entire religion up for scrutiny. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the US today. I find that highly suspect given the negative news that has surrounded Islam the past 5 or so years. I'd figure with all this bad publicity Islam would lose members. The fact that the religion is growing even here in the US is disturbing to me. I have no problem admitting my prejudice against ISLAM. As a whole I find the religion distasteful.

Yes, fastest growing in the US...yet I don't see a lot of market bombings and such, so they don't seem as hatefilled and violent as you would like the to be.

Personally, I find the whole of religions distasteful. Makes it too easy to work people up into a fervor over silly things and brainwash a large population into doing one's bidding.

 

[Ikari]

Hell, when Hollywood released Malcom X, half of my ship all of sudden stopped eating pork.

Sweet...more for you. If those fools wanna give up pork, let them. They miss out on all the porky goodness.

 

[talloulou]

Yes, fastest growing in the US...yet I don't see a lot of market bombings and such, so they don't seem as hatefilled and violent as you would like the to be.

I never said I'd like them to be hate filled and violent. I'm just not blind to the fact that world wide many are.

Personally, I find the whole of religions distasteful. Makes it too easy to work people up into a fervor over silly things and brainwash a large population into doing one's bidding.

Well then we agree on organized religion in general. The difference between us is I don't believe people should be let off the hook or excused of their behavior on the basis that they were brainwashed. You are responsible for what you do. If you choose to become another's puppet than that's on you. You'll get no sympathy from me in that regard.

 

[Ikari]

I never stated that people aren't responsible for their behavior, that was an assumption on your part.

 

[talloulou]

I never stated that people aren't responsible for their behavior, that was an assumption on your part.

No but you repeatedly make excuses and point the finger elsewhere. Words like puppets, brainwashed, abused, ect.... Those are all words used to take the blame from one place and stash it somewhere else. They're words meant to turn perpetrator's into victims. And this thread is full of them.

 

[MSgt]

Yes, fastest growing in the US...yet I don't see a lot of market bombings and such, so they don't seem as hatefilled and violent as you would like the to be.

Considering our robust society and the opportunity to become something great and to achieve success, Americans that convert to Islam is not a problem. Our culture has always humanized the religions. Fanaticism was brought to our shores, but it gave way to common sense and wisdom. Today, our religions thrive amongst each other and our culture reflects it. We also have the benefit of the absence of any particular "Holy Land" or reliigious structure to feud over as seen in other cultures. Given history and the current state of affairs, Islam will take it's more liberal form in America before anywhere else.

This is the grave difference between the Middle East and the Western civilizations. Men with futures and an earthly puspose do not so quickly throw their lives away in the blast of a vested bomb.

 

[MSgt]

Sweet...more for you. If those fools wanna give up pork, let them. They miss out on all the porky goodness.

It didn't last. By the end of the float most were right back to form. And most of those that clung to Malcolm X's example went back to true form after they got home.

 

[Ikari]

Considering our robust society and the opportunity to become something great and to achieve success, Americans that convert to Islam is not a problem. Our culture has always humanized the religions. Fanaticism was brought to our shores, but it gave way to common sense and wisdom. Today, our religions thrive amongst each other and our culture reflects it. We also have the benefit of the absence of any particular "Holy Land" or reliigious structure to feud over as seen in other cultures. Given history and the current state of affairs, Islam will take it's more liberal form in America before anywhere else.

This is the grave difference between the Middle East and the Western civilizations. Men with futures and an earthly puspose do not so quickly throw their lives away in the blast of a vested bomb.

This illustrates my main points I have made for some time.

1) It's not something fundamental to Islam
2) Theocracies are bad.

The freedom we enjoy in the US allows for people to practice their religion as they see fit, so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others in the process. Because we have a secular government, and because we have freedom; religions are more capable of being true to their fundamental tenets instead of being used by a government to achieve political/military goals. There isn't anything fundamental to Islam which would make it a violent religion, as seen by many of the practitioners of Islam in America.

Just another reason why America rocks.

 

[Ikari]

No but you repeatedly make excuses and point the finger elsewhere. Words like puppets, brainwashed, abused, ect.... Those are all words used to take the blame from one place and stash it somewhere else. They're words meant to turn perpetrator's into victims. And this thread is full of them.

I never said they weren't responsible for their actions. In fact, when talking specifically about the girls in the story I stated that they rightfully need to be punished. The rhetoric used was used to illustrate the corruption of a religion and particular leaders wishing to achieve some goal and unafraid to use a religion and its people as casualties. That doesn't mean that terrorists and suicide bombers and such are not responsible for their actions, they made a choice and must live by the consequences of that choice, they must accept the responsibility which comes with making choices. That doesn't distract from the point that Islam as a whole, the fundamentals, are not any more violent than that of other religions. Those making war in the name of their god are corrupting the religion to convince a people to follow them. Religion, because of its nature, make this very easy and almost all religion has at some point in its life been used in this manner. Religion can easily blind, that doesn't mean people still aren't responsible, but its a statement of fact. Those wishing to achieve certain goals know the rhetoric to use and how to twist the religion to get people to follow their word.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Considering our robust society and the opportunity to become something great and to achieve success, Americans that convert to Islam is not a problem. Our culture has always humanized the religions. Fanaticism was brought to our shores, but it gave way to common sense and wisdom. Today, our religions thrive amongst each other and our culture reflects it. We also have the benefit of the absence of any particular "Holy Land" or reliigious structure to feud over as seen in other cultures. Given history and the current state of affairs, Islam will take it's more liberal form in America before anywhere else.

This is the grave difference between the Middle East and the Western civilizations. Men with futures and an earthly puspose do not so quickly throw their lives away in the blast of a vested bomb.

This a nice post and I completely agree with it.

 

[bandaidwoman]

But, 9/11 gave me a reason to be interested in Islam and learn more about it. So I did. I can completely understand others doing the same and finding a belief system that they agreed with, and that they were perhaps previously ignorant of. So the conversions really aren't mind boggling to me at all.

That is very interesting.

 

[MSgt]

This illustrates my main points I have made for some time.

1) It's not something fundamental to Islam
2) Theocracies are bad.

It is both. There is indeed something to the fundamentalism of Islam. It cannot be discounted, because certain mechanisms that are present in other religions are absent in Islam in the Middle East. What if Jesus killed in the name of God? What if the example of Jesus Christ did not contradict the harshness of the Old Testament giving us an unquestioning divinity of the contents of the Bible? We too would have a fundamental problem in Christianity. Who would peaceful Christians be if they dared to question Christian Radicals who merely act in the footsteps of Jesus Christ?

Because of this, Islam has and will continue to have a much tougher road to travel before it can achieve the aspects that peaceful Muslims focus more on.

I think what people overwhelmingly confuse is the differences between global Islam and Middle Eastern Arab Islam. While the religion is the same, one is set in brittle concrete and the other has had the benefit of outside influence. In the Middle East, the culture is the prescribing failure upon the civilization. And what formed the culture? This will not happen anytime in our lifetimes, but they must question their religion.

 

[Duke]

Liberals are not terrorist, they are terrorist sympathisers.

I am a liberal. I am not a terrorist sympathizer. I hate terrorists.

QED!


Duke