Taxes...

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

As I said, humans did not first come together in exchange for anything. Allow me to reiterate: Why did mothers first begin to really raise their young? What did their young give them?

What? Did I forget to mention mammalian maternal instincts? Did I forget to mention genetic posterity? NO I DID NOT! You just don't know how to read.

:roll:

Why did Man form groups larger than simple mating pairs?

He didn't start it. Man evolved from apes who'd already possessed banding instinctive behavior.

Why did he begin to care for his sick and his injured and his dying, when they had nothing to offer him?

Because the bonding emotions of love form part of the complex of survival behaviors that made homo sapiens the successful species it is. It's an offshoot of the maternal nurturing instincts.

Why did he bury his dead?

Because once he started living in caves he noticed that while old Uncle Ernie didn't smell any worse than the rest of them when alive, he really STANK when he was dead, and got real ugly too. Not to mention that the corpse on the front porch called to unwelcome visitors like cave bears and saber cats.

:roll:

Unless you prove that goods or services were at the heart of all this, your argument is leaky and mine remains airtight. I for a second time invite you to find the hole.

See? There's other very selfish motives involved in the issues you raise. And there's absolutely no need to pretend that people do things because of some imaginary debt to people that don't do anything for them.

I'm not asking for you to give people rides to work, necessarily.

Yes, you did. You whined about how the parasite couldn't get to work, and the implication was that we self-reliant people would yet once again have to shell out our money to pay for their rides to work.

I'm asking you about the people who cannot work, who could not get to work without a ride. There are some people who really are stuck in a bad situation with no legal way to get out. They're everywhere. Stop sidestepping the question. What do we do about them?

No. "What do WE do with them?" is not the proper question. Give me the freedom to choose, and I won't do a damn thing at all. The question you need to answer is "What are YOU going to do?"

There ain't know "we", as long as you're holding that gun, I"m an unwilling slave. Put the gun down, and you discover the parasites are your problem.

You care. I don't. You want to do something, go right ahead. You have my permission.

Those "illegal Mexicans" of whom you spoke save the farmetr the trouble of sending them a bus, so what happens to them?

What? Going back to Mexico isn't an option? What a limited imagination you have.

My whole point is that it doesn't work for everyone! If the guy with the bad back has to choose between picking strawberries and starving, he'll pick strawberries. But wait! As you yourself just pointed out, there is no way he can support himself doing this. Physical impossibility. Of course he can't pick strawberries; that's my point! That's the extenuating circumstance! It's not stupidity, it's him in a bad situation with no way out whatsoever, no matter how much h wishes to and no matter how much he tries. And you think he should starve to death.

Like I said, which apparently are pretending not to see, once the real problem cases are identified, the resources YOU can bring to YOUR problem won't be expended on the true parasites. YOU'LL feel good about doing something real, and honest.

That' what WE do. I let you have the freedom to make your choices, and I expect to have the freedom to make mine.

See? That's what freedom is. It's also what morality is.

Human rights do not discriminate; you do not have to be productive to have them.

Rights are a figment of a diseased and lazy imagination. Rights do not exist. You don't have a right to take my money, the parasites don't have a right to take my money. It's a shock to realize this, but there's not factory in the sky making rights for anyone.

You may not deserve but are nonetheless entitled to certain things as a human being. Enough food to keep the breath in your body is one of them.

Well, if you really feel this way, you do have the freedom to hold any religion you wish, and if that religion requires you to spend all of you own money to support the useless, I'll respect that.

But no one's "right" (which doesn't exist) requires a dime of my money.

You know it's impossible to resolve this on a case-by-case basis, so in the meantime you can continue to pay up right beside me, my friend, because- oh, how I am belaboring this point- you and I live in the same society, a society which makes certain demands of us.

I only continue to pay because of this:

No, not the little brat, the ugly men with the ugly guns, who stand by to support your policies.

I never said that you did, but you do fail to acknowledge the fact that there is a difference between charity and social programs. I explained it in one of the last three "partial posts" above; I refer you to that argument.

No. Yes. Charity is when I give freely of my own money to support causes I favor.

Social programs are when you give freely of my own money to support causes you favor.

As for your assertion that the true unfortunates could be found, they'll die before you can find them.

No. Wait, yes, that's certainly true. What you meant to say is that they might die before YOU find them. If they're sitting around waiting for me to find them, they'll definitely die because I won't be looking for them.

And even if they do not, the freeloaders- the very people who make you hate the social programs- will not just give it all up. Their ruining the system makes it unscrappable in the short term. Surely you realize this; are you willing to pay the necessary cost in life to bring about immediate reform?

Sure. A good rifle doesn't cost that much. Get rid of the stupid bans on semi-auto and full-automatic weapons and it still wouldn't cost me all that much compared to the annual drain on the wallet the parasites are right now.

One final question: what happens in hard times when people, even with fewer taxes, have no money to donate? What would happen to the poor then under your proposed system of private donations? I'm just curious on this last bit, not attacking you.

Usually they die.

I refer you to the aristocrat argument, twice made in my previous posts. It is the totally free sacrificing some freedom so that those closer to real slavery can themselves be equally free.

No matter how many times you say it, it will never make any sense. Rich people don't have more freedom than poor people. Rich people have more money. And that gives them more choices. That's not "greater freedom".

I really don't think you did. And my warrant is the demand of the society you choose to live in. I have stated that- what? A dozen times, now?[/qutoe]

Yeah, you keep saying it, and you keep on being wrong.

It is not a question of needs, it is a question of inherent rights on the one side and inherent obligations on the other.

What you're really saying is that someone else need creates a obligation on someone else, without their consent.

Bullshit.

Everything I have discussed which you have taken as a need, or almost everything, is the product of inherent this or inherent that or inherent the other thing under the umbrella of a society you are not inherent to. You are , like I am, free to leave it all behind, but you can't have things both ways.

Oh, there we go. The tired old you can leave if you want but we won't stop robbing you bullshit argument of the morally bankrupt. It also translate into "we got the guns, so we make the rules."

 

[jamesrage]

Do you support low taxes(tax cuts) or high taxes(tax raises)?

I support tax cuts as long as it is appropriate.Why cut taxes when Bush is spending like a drunken liberal?I understand him spending money on the war,wars are not cheap and never will be.But the dumping of money on other countries is just absurd,screw africa and screw indonesia and any other country crying for a handout, America's needs come first.We could be spending that money on roads,a wall on the us mexican border,public education law enforcement or anything else America needs.I think it is absurd to be giving tax cuts when spending in government has massively gone up.