Sweden, no lockdown no difference, even less deaths...

[brianpatrick]

You seriously don't understand why that isn't a response?

This isn't complicated mathematics. The death rate per 100k forms what is called a percentage, which you can also express as a fraction, and both of which can be applied to any natural number (and many more types, besides).

If I told you an optimal tip to pay is $20 for every $100 you pay, would you seriously tell me you couldn't figure out how to apply that to a bill that only came to $35.25?! Because it sounds like you'd be stumped, seeing as the bill was for less than $100....

Should I round up the nickel a whole dollar or just give ‘em 7? Not sure about the etiquette.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Sure, and here’s the balance: control the pandemic and the economy will follow. If you don’t control the pandemic the cost will be lives, businesses, the mental health and education of our children, and breaking the bank-which is what has happened under the jackass.
There are times when sacrificing a little freedom for the common good is required.

That's not actually a balance calculation at all. What do you mean by "control the pandemic?" What do you mean by "a little freedom?" There's a whole continuum for both of those concepts, and there's disagreement about how much control and loss of freedom is worthwhile, both for Covid, and many other things.

 

[Noodlegawd]

When are you free to drive on public roads drunk?
Hint: its the same time you are free to enter a grocery store that requires masks without wearing one

That depends on what the BAC limit is where I'm driving, and how much I care about suffering the penalty in the unlikely chance I get caught. The lower the limit, the higher the likelihood I'll get caught, and the greater the penalty, the less "free" I am to drive "drunk."

 

[Chagos]

Yes, and Germany has more 100k and Sweden has less 100k

*sigh*

Keee--rist.

 

[Ethel2]

That depends on what the BAC limit is where I'm driving, and how much I care about suffering the penalty in the unlikely chance I get caught. The lower the limit, the higher the likelihood I'll get caught, and the greater the penalty, the less "free" I am to drive "drunk."

The BAC limit in every state is the same: .08. Driving above that limit is illegal. Entering most grocery stores without a mask is illegal. You are not free to knowingly endanger others without their permission. Doing so is not only illegal but morally reprehensible. Your perceived freedom is an illusion. You are not free to choose which laws to obey and which ones to ignore. Not in a civilized society.

 

[brianpatrick]

That's not actually a balance calculation at all. What do you mean by "control the pandemic?" What do you mean by "a little freedom?" There's a whole continuum for both of those concepts, and there's disagreement about how much control and loss of freedom is worthwhile, both for Covid, and many other things.

Yes, in many compromises and balances this would be true except for a pandemic, where “your freedom/free actions” affect other people. People who are expecting you to hold up your end of the social bargain.

 

[Chagos]

In Sweden the gouverment has closed borders to Denmark and Norway

But all migration outside Europe is welcome to come here, and no one is checked or controlled if they have COVID-19

bovine manure requiring nor further address than calling it that.

 

[Chagos]

Are you talking about official measures/restrictions, or what the people did on their own accord?

If the former, what did Germany do that France or Italy didn't do?

react faster (IOW earlier)

Or what did Germany not do that South Korea did?

react slower (IOW later).

You're welcome.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That's why the deaths/100K is used.

And it’s an irrelevant measure because absolutely nothing actually scales In a linear manner in the real world.

 

[Chagos]

 

[Ethel2]

And it’s an irrelevant measure because absolutely nothing actually scales In a linear manner in the real world.

Wrong
Deaths per 100k is a metric that is used by many people and organizations. It’s not meant to be perfect; there is no perfect metric. But, as in baseball where batting average to measure the performance of hitters is used as a metric despite its imperfections, it’s one tool that has value in determining how well (or, as in our case, how poorly) a country has handled the pandemic.
Deaths per 100k is a far better metric than raw deaths.

 

[Noodlegawd]

You are not free to choose which laws to obey and which ones to ignore. Not in a civilized society.

Of course we are. I know this every time I drive down the highway at the speed limit and practically everybody else is blowing by me like I'm standing still and the cops aren't doing a thing about it. And the rare times when they do pull someone over, they get a little baby slap on the wrist.

And the speed we are allowed to drive can be changed, and so can the BAC limit.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Yes, in many compromises and balances this would be true except for a pandemic, where “your freedom/free actions” affect other people. People who are expecting you to hold up your end of the social bargain.

The social bargain in a pandemic also consists of compromises and balances. If it didn't we'd all be locked in our houses until the very last Covid case disappeared.

 

[Noodlegawd]

react faster (IOW earlier) react slower (IOW later).

You're welcome.

So you're saying they all did exactly the same things, but some just did them sooner than others? Strange, I hadn't heard that. Do you have a source for this information.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Wrong
Deaths per 100k is a metric that is used by many people and organizations. It’s not meant to be perfect; there is no perfect metric. But, as in baseball where batting average to measure the performance of hitters is used as a metric despite its imperfections, it’s one tool that has value in determining how well (or, as in our case, how poorly) a country has handled the pandemic.
Deaths per 100k is a far better metric than raw deaths.

Both are irrelevant metrics. No two societies can scale on a linear fashion. The leftist idea of “science” is really just a Marxist idea of the “science of politics” and the “science of history” statistics as a word literally is rooted in “state”.

 

[Chagos]

So you're saying they all did exactly the same things, but some just did them sooner than others? Strange, I hadn't heard that. Do you have a source for this information.

Yes.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

So you're saying they all did exactly the same things, but some just did them sooner than others? Strange, I hadn't heard that. Do you have a source for this information.

For South Korea they also did a great job on contact tracing. With much of the population having apps in their phone for just that

 

[brianpatrick]

The social bargain in a pandemic also consists of compromises and balances. If it didn't we'd all be locked in our houses until the very last Covid case disappeared.

This is totally not true. Countries that locked down hard in the beginning are now re-enjoying their freedoms. I know my observations are with the benefit of hindsight, but there were people saying it early. It really was just a political failure. If it had disappeared in a month or two as was always possible, we would already have forgotten it. There was a political gamble and it was the wrong choice.

 

[Ethel2]

Both are irrelevant metrics. No two societies can scale on a linear fashion. The leftist idea of “science” is really just a Marxist idea of the “science of politics” and the “science of history” statistics as a word literally is rooted in “state”.

As in baseball there are no perfect metrics to compare the performance of one country vs another in pandemic response. However it is incorrect to believe that there is no way at all to compare them. In baseball we use to describe the performance of batters a variety of metrics: OPS, BA, WAR etc. The combination of all of them determines the value of a player vis a vis the amount of his contract. Similarly there are many ways to describe the performance of a country in comparison to others responding to the pandemic.
Just because its inconvenient for you to use those metrics to describe our horrid performance doesn't make them less valuable.

 

[Ethel2]

Of course we are. I know this every time I drive down the highway at the speed limit and practically everybody else is blowing by me like I'm standing still and the cops aren't doing a thing about it. And the rare times when they do pull someone over, they get a little baby slap on the wrist.

And the speed we are allowed to drive can be changed, and so can the BAC limit.

It is morally reprehensible to choose to drive drunk; its no more of a legitimate choice than choosing murder. This is a perfect analogy to not wearing a mask in public when you are within six feet of others not living with you. Its many levels of illegal above speeding. You may not EVER endanger others without their permission. You are not "free" to do that any more than you are free to murder, steal, riot, commit arson etc.
Like I said, freedom is an illusion. This is only a "relatively" free nation. You can choose Cherios or Frosted Flakes for breakfast; you may also choose to jump in front of a train if you like. But you may not endanger others. Thats where your freedom ends.

 

[JasperL]

The progress of the COVID-19 epidemic in Sweden: an update

By Nic Lewis I thought it was time for an update of my original analysis of 28 June 2020. As I wrote then, the course of the COVID-19 pandemic in Sweden is of great interest, as it is one of very f…

judithcurry.com

"Excess deaths in Sweden to end 2020 were modest, particularly for 2019 (when deaths were abnormally low) and 2020 combined. They appear to be much lower relative to the population than in England, despite far harsher restrictions being imposed there. "

Why the lockdown?

Maybe part of it is England has > ten times the population density of Sweden? Nic Lewis forgot to even mention that small difference.

 

[brianpatrick]

It is morally reprehensible to choose to drive drunk; its no more of a legitimate choice than choosing murder. This is a perfect analogy to not wearing a mask in public when you are within six feet of others not living with you. Its many levels of illegal above speeding. You may not EVER endanger others without their permission. You are not "free" to do that any more than you are free to murder, steal, riot, commit arson etc.
Like I said, freedom is an illusion. This is only a "relatively" free nation. You can choose Cherios or Frosted Flakes for breakfast; you may also choose to jump in front of a train if you like. But you may not endanger others. Thats where your freedom ends.

Exactly right. And it’s nothing to do with freedom as a general principle in the US or anywhere else. It’s a temporary measure with clearly defined goals. My states’ department of health whatever just changed the guidelines to ensure we will never again have a state lockdown due to Covid. Instead of spending money on testing and vaccine distribution we bought more body bags. I know this was probably just a “bad look” and there was more to the story, but c’mon!

 

[COTO]

Best not to compare Sweden to a country that mucked up the response early on. Compare it to Germany which got things right and did so at the beginning of the pandemic.

Deaths per 100K
Sweden: 121.73
Germany: 78.39

 

[COTO]

It will take years of recession, small businesses never coming back, starvation in Africa, runaway inflation in Europe and North America, governments refusing to give up emergency powers, and carnage in tourism, aviation, hospitality, and retail industries, but I am confident that in time, even as resistance to the idea mounts, the "medical community" will ultimately accept that the pandemic lockdowns of 2020 were one of the worst policy decisions--if not the worst policy decision--of the early 21st Century.

 

[brianpatrick]

It will take years of recession, small businesses never coming back, starvation in Africa, runaway inflation in Europe and North America, governments refusing to give up emergency powers, and carnage in tourism, aviation, hospitality, and retail industries, but I am confident that in time, even as resistance to the idea mounts, the "medical community" will ultimately accept that the pandemic lockdowns of 2020 were one of the worst policy decisions--if not the worst policy decision--of the early 21st Century.

Agree. They didn’t happen early enough, nor was there widespread compliance. Also, you’re right, because of our inability to contain the virus many businesses will not come back. We’ll have to live differently from now on.