Full TextFeb 26, 6:36 PM (ET)
By JIM VERTUNO
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - On Wednesday, the U.S. Supreme Court will consider whether a 6-foot granite monument on the grounds of the Texas state Capitol bearing the words "I am the Lord thy God" - and two similar displays at Kentucky courthouses - constitute unconstitutional government establishment of religion.
(Snip) Derided by some as an atheist, Van Orden says he's simply "not religious" despite growing up in the Methodist Church in East Texas and having a brief interest in the Unitarian Church as an adult.
"I have nothing against the Ten Commandments. I grew up with the Ten Commandments," he said. "I didn't sue Christianity or Judaism. I sued the government. It was filed to uphold the principles of the First Amendment."
(Snip) "What they're really advocating on the other side is a religious cleansing from our history," Shackelford said. "It should be treated with respect as our part of history, not some new form of pornography that has to be banned from our public arena."
The Fraternal Order of Eagles donated the Texas monument in 1961 and gave scores of similar monuments to towns across the United States.
I don't like paying liberal teachers who preach their views to our kids either, so what's your point again?I have nothing against someone displaying religious symbols on private property, but they absolutely do not belong on public grounds supported by taxpayers money , taxpayers who might not subscribe to that particular faith.
Blue Hobgoblin said:I have nothing against someone displaying religious symbols on private property, but they absolutely do not belong on public grounds supported by taxpayers money :naughty , taxpayers who might not subscribe to that particular faith.
Hoot said:I forget who originally said this, but it was posted somewhere a few months back in "Debate Politics" and hit the nail on the head........
Let's say we have a judge in the U.S. who is of Muslim ancestry, and this judge wants to display a copy of the Koran on public property?
Can you understand how most conservatives would be outraged?
Can you understand why we need to draw the line between church and state?
Batman said:Show me in the constitution where it says 'seperation of church and state.'
It doesn't. The government is not to impose religion. Having a display of commandments or reference to God is not making citizens bow down. The constitution says nothing about the church being unable to be involved with the government.
I think this says it quite well. What I find so hypocritical of these atheists, is that they wish to take away the religious freedom of others, which is exactly what freedom of religion is all about."What they're really advocating on the other side is a religious cleansing from our history," Shackelford said. "It should be treated with respect as our part of history, not some new form of pornography that has to be banned from our public arena.
Hoot said:Let's say we have a judge in the U.S. who is of Muslim ancestry, and this judge wants to display a copy of the Koran on public property?
Can you understand how most conservatives would be outraged?
Can you understand why we need to draw the line between church and state?
Squawker said:What I find so hypocritical of these atheists, is that they wish to take away the religious freedom of others, which is exactly what freedom of religion is all about.
And I don't? Thank you for your generosity. You think the world should rotate on your axis? What gives you the right to deny me my constitutional right? Some activist jusdge maybe, but not the US Constitution.However, as an atheist I have the right to live my life as I choose, and not as someone else would choose for me.
Squawker said:And I don't? Thank you for your generosity. You think the world should rotate on your axis? What gives you the right to deny me my constitutional right? Some activist jusdge maybe, but not the US Constitution.
We don’t really know the context of the opinion. He was probably speaking in reference to the religious freedom England didn’t provide, and one that New England would. The Government wasn’t to prohibit religious freedom. It wasn’t until the mid 20th century that his words had any weight at all. Activist judges decided his words meant there should be no morning prayer in the schools. The liberals/Democrats pride themselves on being “progressive”, but I fail to see how that fits in with going back to old English ways.1802-Jefferson, one of the framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, sent a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association stating: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
Naughty Nurse said:Sorry, Squawker, but I think you've got that wrong. The problem, as far as I can see, is that many religious people seem to feel they have a right to dictate how other people should live their lives. If someone has a strong faith, and chooses to live their life according to that faith, and it makes them hapy, then I think that's great. However, as an atheist I have the right to live my life as I choose, and not as someone else would choose for me.
Freedom of religion includes the right to be an atheist.
Squawker said:We don’t really know the context of the opinion. He was probably speaking in reference to the religious freedom England didn’t provide, and one that New England would. The Government wasn’t to prohibit religious freedom. It wasn’t until the mid 20th century that his words had any weight at all. Activist judges decided his words meant there should be no morning prayer in the schools. The liberals/Democrats pride themselves on being “progressive”, but I fail to see how that fits in with going back to old English ways.
Danbury to Thomas Jefferson said:Sir,
Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your Election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your Inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief Magistracy in the United States. And though our mode of expression may be less courtly [stylish] and pompious [pompous] than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, Sir, to believe that none are more sincere.
Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty--That Religion is at all times and places a Matter between God and Individuals--That no man ought to suffer in Name, person or effects on account of his religious Opinions--That the legitimate Power of civil Government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbour.
But Sir, our [Connecticut] constitution of government is not specific. Our antient [ancient] charter, together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted as the Basis of our government At the time of our revolution, and such had been our laws and usages [practices], & such still are, that religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, & therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, are inconsistent with the rights of freemen.
It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those, who seek after power & gain under the pretence of government & Religion should reproach their fellow men--should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law, & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.
Sir, we are sensible that the president of the United States is not the national Legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial Effect already, like the radient beams of the Sun, will shine & forever prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth.
Sir, when we reflect on your past services and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of State out of that good will which he bears to the Millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence & the voice of the people have called you to sustain, and support you in your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth & importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.
And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.
Signed in behalf of the Association,
Neh'[emia]h Dodge The Committee
Eph'[rai]m Robbins
Stephen S. Nelson
* * * * *
Here's the full letter to Danbury:Thomas Jefferson to Att General said:January 1, 1802
Averse to receive addresses, yet unable to prevent them, I have generally endeavored to turn them to some account, by making them the occasion, by way of answer, of sowing useful truths and principles among the people, which might germinate and become rooted among their political tenets. The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution. It furnishes an occasion, too, which I have long wished to find, of saying why I do not proclaim fastings and thanksgivings, as my predecessors did. The address, to be sure does not point at this, and its introduction is awkward. But I foresee no opportunity of doing it more pertinently. I know it will give great offence to the New England clergy; but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them. Will you be so good as to examine the answer, and suggest any alterations which might prevent an ill effect or promote a good one, among the people? You understand the temper of those in the North, and can weaken it, therefore, to their stomachs; it is at present seasoned to the Southern taste only. I would ask the favor of you to return it, with the address, in the course of the day or evening. Health and affection.
Thomas Jefferson to Danbury said:January 1, 1802.
GENTLEMEN,--The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Batman said:The constitution says nothing about the church being unable to be involved with the government.
Hoot said:Fine...let the church be involved with government, and campaign for particular candidates, just so long as they lose their tax free status, then I'm fine with it.
That wasn't the problem up for debate but I would agree with them losing "some" of their tax free status. Jefferson was one man who had an opinion. Activist judges took one mans "opinion" to make it possible to pass laws forbiding the free excessive of religion, which the Congress was prohibited from doing in the Constitution.Fine...let the church be involved with government, and campaign for particular candidates, just so long as they lose their tax free status, then I'm fine with it.
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