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Supreme Court/Ten Commandments Case

Saint George Tucker On The Separation Of Civil And Religious Institutions

From the first moment that civil and religious institutions were blended together. To separate them by mounds which can never be overleaped, is the only means by which our duty to God, the peace of mankind, and the genuine fruits of charity and fraternal love, can be preserved or properly discharged.

This prohibition, therefore, may be regarded as the most powerful cement of, the federal government, or rather, the violation of it will prove the most powerful engine of separation. Those who prize the union of the states will never think of touching this article with unhallowed hands. The ministry of the unsanctified sons of Aaron scarcely produced a flame, more sudden, more violent, or more destructive, than such an attempt would inevitably excite .... I forbear to say more, in this place, upon this subject, having treated of it somewhat at large in a succeeding note.

http://www.constitution.org/tb/t1d12000.htm

FVF
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
How does preventing the use of government as a vehicle to promote, compel or endorse religious beliefs a limit to the freedom of religious expression?

Man has a God given natural right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his conscience and convictions. Man has no moral or legal right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his government. In point of fact, he has a duty to ignore any religious advice or recommendations that issue from the government. To even consider advice of a religious nature from the government is a rejection of God's exclusive authority over the duty which we owe to him.

If this was a genuine Christian nation the people whould rise up and demand that "In God We Trust" be removed from the nation's coins.

FVF
 
FredFlash said:
Man has a God given natural right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his conscience and convictions. Man has no moral or legal right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his government. In point of fact, he has a duty to ignore any religious advice or recommendations that issue from the government. To even consider advice of a religious nature from the government is a rejection of God's exclusive authority over the duty which we owe to him.

If this was a genuine Christian nation the people would rise up and demand that "In God We Trust" be removed from the nation's coins.

FVF
Maybe I am hopelessly obtuse, but this "argument" make zero sense..Are there people out there who actually accept these statements ??
BTW, I favor NOT turning a molehill into a mountain and letting the monuments be !
This crap should never have made it to any court, much less the Supreme...
We have far more important and pressing needs in this country.
Education
Prison reform
Election reform
Trade imbalance
All those immigrants
Federal debt
New Orleans
GM
The future of out nation
Abortion
And many more I have missed

Not one minute more should be spent by anyone appeasing the atheists and homosexuals !
 
earthworm said:
No proof either way, if it were to be put to a vote in that particular community( the Eagle donated plaque), probably 90% would vote affirative...
A. How would you know I am Christian and not Agnostic?? This has nothing to do with my position anyway...
True, most Americans do not want "religious rule", nor church involvement in state, or state involvement in church.....
But its only a plaque; has very little to do with any religion specifically , nor any church.
B. Like it or not, we are a Christian nation(more or less), we were established that way by mostly religious men who knew that a line had to be drawn - that America could not make the same mistake England made long ago....
The plaques hurt no-one, do nothing but sit there quietly, but probably do bother the hyper-sensitive atheist..
Too bad.

In response to A: I never said you were christian nor does it have any bearing on the argument. I used the word "YOU" in the rehetorical sense meaning "A PERSON", another way of reading the sentance in question would be, "The idea that just because a person is christian means that they want the 10 commandments displayed in a courthous is false."

In response to B: We are not a Christian nation, we are a democratic nation. If we were a Christian nation then the principles of christianity would be written into our constitution. Just because a majority (presumably) of the populus is christian does not mean that they have any more rights than non-christians, nor do they deserve special treatment. Any endorsement of any religeon would be special treatment. Therefore, displaying a very important symbol of a particular religeon in a courthous is indeed endorsing said religeon. There is not way around this, just faulty rational.

(Notice, I never made a comment about what religeon I am or any other poster is here on this thread, as it is not relavent)
 
Befuddled_Stoner said:
I don't know about you other atheists/agnostics, but I am praying with all my heart and soul that displaying the ten commandments is deemed perfectly constitutional. If it is, that means we can start collecting money to raise monuments extolling then tenets of the Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster right alongside it! Just imagine! How far could we push the envelope if we could build monuments to Satan in all His glory? Nothing lewd or vulgar, mind you, but I'm sure we could include a depiction of a couple of virgin sacrifices, and maybe even Satan Himself eating a baby! I'm sure all the Christians advocating monuments of the 10 commandments wouldn't mind.....I mean, just because there's a 40 foot statue of Satan preparing to eat a baby standing on the steps of the state courthouse doesn't mean you have to change your religious beliefs or anything like that, because we could all agree that it would in no way means that the State endorses devil worshiping.

This is the best quote I've seen so far on this issue. Any supporters of displaying the 10 commandments care to rebut?
 
earthworm said:
Maybe I am hopelessly obtuse, but this "argument" make zero sense..Are there people out there who actually accept these statements
Not one minute more should be spent by anyone appeasing the atheists and homosexuals !

It was James Madison who argued that man has a God given natural right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his conscience and convictions.

We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence."

The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.

This right is in its nature an unalienable right.

It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men:

It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator.

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him.

This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe:

And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.

We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance.

True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body.

The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former.
Source of Information: A Memorial and Remonstrance (1785) by James Madison.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/jm4/writings/memor.htm

A Christian has a duty to ignore any religious advice or recommendations that issue from the government because Christians take their religious advice from Christ and him alone.

To even consider advice of a religious nature from the government is a rejection of God's exclusive authority over the duty which we owe to him because no man can serve two masters.

FVF
 
earthworm said:
Maybe I am hopelessly obtuse, but this "argument" make zero sense..Are there people out there who actually accept these statements ??
earthworm said:
BTW, I favor NOT turning a molehill into a mountain and letting the monuments be !
This crap should never have made it to any court, much less the Supreme...
We have far more important and pressing needs in this country.
Education
Prison reform
Election reform
Trade imbalance
All those immigrants
Federal debt
New Orleans
GM
The future of out nation
Abortion
And many more I have missed

Not one minute more should be spent by anyone appeasing the atheists and homosexuals !

Evidently you are in need of a basic Civics refresher.

Education – Laws regarding education are the responsibility of the legislative branch.
Prison reform – Executive and Legislative branches
Trade Imbalance – Executive and Legislative branches
Immigration – Executive and Legislative branches
Federal Debt – Executive and Legislative branches
New Orleans – Primarily the Executive Branch
GM – Its stock holders
The future of our nation – The voters and taxpayers
Abortion – The pregnant individual

Your rights and the limitations of government - The Judicial Branch.

Ruling on the constitutional issues of a separation of church and state is exactly what the courts should be doing.

You guys on the religious right who so want a theocracy, have you ever actually read the Gospels. I mean if we are to be a Christian Nation, then there will be a little more to it than hanging the Ten Commandments in the court rooms and bashing gays. The Bible is practically a handbook for socialism. There are about 3000 verses on the poor in the Bible. The subjects of the redistribution of wealth and helping the poor are brought up in scripture more than any other single subject. If you really want a Christian Nation, then you are going to end up with a very, very, very socialist nation with the Ten Commandments in the Court Rooms. Is that that what you want, or are you just looking for another whipping post in your wedge issue generating cultural war?
 
Befuddled_Stoner said:
I don't know about you other atheists/agnostics, but I am praying with all my heart and soul that displaying the ten commandments is deemed perfectly constitutional. If it is, that means we can start collecting money to raise monuments extolling then tenets of the Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster right alongside it! Just imagine! How far could we push the envelope if we could build monuments to Satan in all His glory? Nothing lewd or vulgar, mind you, but I'm sure we could include a depiction of a couple of virgin sacrifices, and maybe even Satan Himself eating a baby! I'm sure all the Christians advocating monuments of the 10 commandments wouldn't mind.....I mean, just because there's a 40 foot statue of Satan preparing to eat a baby standing on the steps of the state courthouse doesn't mean you have to change your religious beliefs or anything like that, because we could all agree that it would in no way means that the State endorses devil worshiping.

Well it would certainly be more interesting than some of the crap that gets passed off as art!
 
Stinger said:
What founding principles of this country are unique to and indicative of Christianity?

Where is freedom of speech in the Christian Bible?
How about the right to keep and bear arms?
How about freedom of religion, to believe in whatever God you choose?
Where does the Bible lay out a Constitutional Republican form of government?
Trial by jury in there?
Who about Habeous Corpus?

Those are just a couple of the founding principles of this country so start with those. I always here the pro government religion involvment side make the statement you made but never have been able to get anyone to show it.

The ten commandments are the basis for all laws.
 
Alias said:
The ten commandments are the basis for all laws.

... really.

Speeding? "Thou shalt not speed"
Taxes? "Tou shalt give taxes"
Dogs must be walked on a leash? "Tou shalt walk all doggest on toust leeshes"
Drivng drunk? "To imbibeth alchohol and driveth thoust careth deemeth bad"

Just becaues the 10 commandments follows the general moral code that MOST humans agree upon reguardless of religeon does it no way make them the basis for all laws. That is such a bunk argument.
 
Alias said:
The ten commandments are the basis for all laws.

During the Early Years of the Republic there was a constroversy over the 1810 Post Office bill that required the mail to be transported and opened on Sundays. The "Christian Party" beleived that the law required a violation of one of the Ten Commandments and petitioned Congress to repeal the law.

The petitions of the Christian Party were opposed by those who beleved that the Christian Party was intermeddling with the religious opinions of others; infusing a spirit of religious intolerance and persecution into politics that would eventually result in a union of church and state and the destruction of the civil and religious liberties of the people.

The attempts to repeal the Post Office law were defeated numerous times during the Early Days of the Republic. The House of Representatives Post Office Committee, to which the petitions were referred, reported unfavorably on the petitions of the Christian Party a number of times. An 1830 report by Representative Col. Johnson of Kentucky became quite famous. Col. Johnson shared James Madison's veiw that the First Amendment excluded religion from the cognizance of the government. This is evident in the excerpt from his report presented below.

Congress acts under a constitution of delegated and limited powers. The Committee looks in vain to that instrument for a delegation of power authorizing this body to inquire and determine what part of time, or whether any, has been set apart by the Almighty for religious exercises. On the contrary, among the few prohibitions which it contains is one that prohibits a religious test; and another which declares that Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The Committee might here rest the argument, upon the ground that the question referred to them does not come within the cognizance of Congress; but the perseverance and zeal with which the memorialists pursue their object seems to require further elucidation of the subject. And, as the opposers of Sunday mails disclaim all intention to unite church and state, the committee do not feel disposed to impugn their motives; and whatever may be advanced in opposition to the measure will arise from the fears entertained of its fatal tendency to the peace and happiness of the nation. The catastrophe of other nations furnished the framers of the constitution a beacon of awful warning, and they have evinced the greatest possible care in guarding against the same evil.

Col. Johnson's 1830 report was cited during debates on the issue of Separation of Church and State at the Texas Constitutional Convention of 1845 . See Page 170 of the Debates and Proceedings of the Texas Convention of 1845 http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/constitutions/pdf/pdf1845debates/00000017.pdf

FVF

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SouthernDemocrat said:
Wow, surprisingly being that its coming from you

Why?????.....
 
Stinger said:
Why?????.....

I was being tongue in cheek being that typically you and I would not agree on many issues. However, on this one, I agree 100% with you.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
What founding principles of this country are unique to and indicative of Christianity?

Where is freedom of speech in the Christian Bible?
How about the right to keep and bear arms?
How about freedom of religion, to believe in whatever God you choose?
Where does the Bible lay out a Constitutional Republican form of government?
Trial by jury in there?
Who about Habeous Corpus?

Those are just a couple of the founding principles of this country so start with those. I always here the pro government religion involvment side make the statement you made but never have been able to get anyone to show it.


Alias said:
The ten commandments are the basis for all laws.

Vague said our country is founded on Chirstian principles. I asked which Christian principles we were founded on and listed a few and asked for an explaination of how they are Christian, where they are in the Bible and the Constitution. I asked which principles we were founded on are unique to and indictive of Christians. You failed to address these questions.

We are NOT founded on the prinicple that murder should be illegal, or that stealing is illegal. Those are universal laws which most ever society, civilization, country has regardless of the religious beliefs of the citizens.

So try again from the top.
 
Stinger said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
What founding principles of this country are unique to and indicative of Christianity?

Where is freedom of speech in the Christian Bible?
How about the right to keep and bear arms?
How about freedom of religion, to believe in whatever God you choose?
Where does the Bible lay out a Constitutional Republican form of government?
Trial by jury in there?
Who about Habeous Corpus?

Those are just a couple of the founding principles of this country so start with those. I always here the pro government religion involvment side make the statement you made but never have been able to get anyone to show it.




Vague said our country is founded on Chirstian principles. I asked which Christian principles we were founded on and listed a few and asked for an explaination of how they are Christian, where they are in the Bible and the Constitution. I asked which principles we were founded on are unique to and indictive of Christians. You failed to address these questions.

We are NOT founded on the prinicple that murder should be illegal, or that stealing is illegal. Those are universal laws which most ever society, civilization, country has regardless of the religious beliefs of the citizens.

So try again from the top.

I think alias was shot down on that point. He obvioulsy didn't think his argument through before posting.
 
Indy said:
I think alias was shot down on that point. He obvioulsy didn't think his argument through before posting.

As I said I hear that line all the time, that we were founded on Christian principles or as Orielly likes to say Juedo-Christian philosophy but can't find anyone who can point those out. And in particular if we are a Christian nation and we are founded on the Ten Commandments they how do you reconcile

"Do not have any other gods before Me. Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship"

with freedom of religion as a founding principle, that we are free to worship whatever god or object we choose to. That it is a basic human right.

So I was not surprised at the non response and lack of responses.
 
Alias said:
The ten commandments are the basis for all laws.

My co-worker, an athiest who hates his parents, spreads false rumors about his neighbor, sleeps with his (neighbor's) wife on Sundays in her house which he wants badly, and lies to his own wife about it, repeatedly claims to be 'a GD redneck,' and hopes one day to meet Larry the Cable Guy, his idol.

Sumbitch should be arrested.
 
Stinger said:
As I said I hear that line all the time, that we were founded on Christian principles or as Orielly likes to say Juedo-Christian philosophy but can't find anyone who can point those out. And in particular if we are a Christian nation and we are founded on the Ten Commandments they how do you reconcile

"Do not have any other gods before Me. Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship"

with freedom of religion as a founding principle, that we are free to worship whatever god or object we choose to. That it is a basic human right.

So I was not surprised at the non response and lack of responses.

The United States started off as "genuine" Christian Nation in 1789 with a government that was supposed to have no authority over religion. The First Congress assumed a tiny bit of authority over the duty to contribute to the financial support of religion.

At the time of the founding, almost all Americans believed that man had a natural God given right to render homage to his Creator as dictated by his conscience; however, many Americans believed that the financial support of religion was not a matter of conscience. During the founding era and the early years of the republic neither the national legislature or that of the states engaged its legislative authortiy to intermeddle in religous opinions by passing bills to declare the people's trust in God on the nation's coins, to recommend a belief in one nation under God, or requiring the Ten Commandments posted in courts and public schools.

The Chaplains to Congress apparently conducted their half-hour morning prayer services before the time set for Congress to conveine that day. By all accouts, very few Congressmen attended the Chaplain's services. The offical records of Congress do not show that prayers were ever said during an daily offcal session of the First U. S. Congress. Senator McClay in his journal describes a conversation between John Adams and Senator Charles Carroll that occured after moring prayers but before the Senate was called to order.

I suspect it would have been considered a trespass upon God's authority and an impious assumtion of authority over the Congressmen's duty to God for the House or Senate Chaplain to invite the entire Senate or House to pray knowing that there were some Congressmen present whose articles of faith did not permit them to participate in the services performed by the Chaplains.

Congress apparently did not subscribe to the view that it had any authority to pass a bill authoriizing it or the President to issue religious recommendations to the people. It also beleived it had no authority to issue religious recommendations directly to the people.

It did however pass a non-binding resolution requesting that the President recommend to the People of the United States, a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed, by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a Constitution of Government for their safety and happiness.

It appears that the First Congress did not intend to establish the practice of annual executive relgious recommendations. Roger Sherman sold it to the House as a one-time only act. It would be 22 years until Congress asked the President to issue another religious recommendation.

When Congress started having prayers duriing its daily sessions in the 1850's and then abusing its authority to declare the people's trust in God on the nation's coins in the 1860's, this nation disowned is founders and surrended any claim to being a genuine Christian Nation.

FVF







or a resoution
 
So fred, do you believe that we are now a christian nation or do you not believe that we are now a christian nation? Just to clarify you position. And what is you opinion on the 10 commandments issue?
 
FredFlash said:
The United States started off as "genuine" Christian Nation in 1789

And what does that mean, what defined our NATION as a Christian nation. Just the fact that that most people believed in the Christian faith? What were the Christian principles that we are supposedly founded on and where are the principles stated in our Bill of Rights in the Bible?

All the rest of your post was mildly interesting from a historical perspective but doesn't answer the simple question asked.
 
Stinger said:
And what does that mean, what defined our NATION as a Christian nation. Just the fact that that most people believed in the Christian faith? What were the Christian principles that we are supposedly founded on and where are the principles stated in our Bill of Rights in the Bible?

All the rest of your post was mildly interesting from a historical perspective but doesn't answer the simple question asked.

Hmmmmm no one on the pro Christian government side seems able to rebut my rebuttle.
 
Indy said:
So fred, do you believe that we are now a christian nation or do you not believe that we are now a christian nation? Just to clarify you position. And what is you opinion on the 10 commandments issue?

No. We are not a Christian Nation and we won't be until the people rise up and demand a government that conforms to the recommendation of the Savior and keeps its nose out of the people's religion. The first thing we need to do is march on the U. S. Capitiol Building and demand that "In God We Trust" be removed from the nation's coins and "one Nation under God" from the pledge.

FVF
 
Stinger said:
And what does that mean, what defined our NATION as a Christian nation. Just the fact that that most people believed in the Christian faith? What were the Christian principles that we are supposedly founded on and where are the principles stated in our Bill of Rights in the Bible?

The establishment of a central government with no authority over religion was what defined the U. S. as a Christian nation.

FVF
 
Indy said:
So fred, do you believe that we are now a christian nation or do you not believe that we are now a christian nation? Just to clarify you position. And what is you opinion on the 10 commandments issue?

Anyone who obeys the religious commandments of the government is a fool and might as well worship Satan. Any government body or individual officer that infringes upon the jurisdication of Jehova should be removed from office by the people and required to serve some time in prison.

Fred
 
FredFlash said:
The establishment of a central government with no authority over religion was what defined the U. S. as a Christian nation.

FVF
How? Why would that make us a "Christian nation" and again what exactluy does that mean?

Where in the Bible does it spell out the principle of a central government based on our founding principles which I spelled out twice now and you ignore, including the freedom to worship whatever god you choose or not to worship at all? Where does the Bible say such a thing?

Where does the constitution say any such thing as you claim?
 
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