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Supreme Court/Ten Commandments Case

Stinger said:
How? Why would that make us a "Christian nation" and again what exactluy does that mean? Where in the Bible does it spell out the principle of a central government based on our founding principles which I spelled out twice now and you ignore, including the freedom to worship whatever god you choose or not to worship at all? Where does the Bible say such a thing? Where does the constitution say any such thing as you claim?

Establishing a system of government with no power over religion makes us a Christian Nation because that is what Christ said to do. When you do what Christ told you to do that makes you a Christian.

Except for the principle of no government authority over religion, did I ever say that Bible spells out the principles of a central government?

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Did President James Madison's Use His Office to Financially Assist Mass Distribution Of The Bible?

Was President James Madison’s 1813 signing of a bill titled “An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia“ at direct variance with the opinions he later expressed in his Detached Memoranda?

The bill read as follows:

Be it enacted, &c., That the duties arising and due to the United States upon certain stereotype plates, imported during the last year into the port of Philadelphia, on board the ship Brilliant, by the Bible Society of Philadelphia, for the purpose of printing editions of the Holy Bible, be and the same are hereby remitted, on behalf of the United States, to the said society: and any bond or security given for the securing of the payment of the said duties shall be cancelled.
David Barton claims that the bill, “economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.”

I say “An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia“ was not at variance with the opinions James Madison he later expressed in his Detached Memoranda. What do you say?

FVF
 
FredFlash said:
Establishing a system of government with no power over religion makes us a Christian Nation

You've said that twice now without responding to my direct questions as to where the specific principles we ARE founded are are located in the Biblical teachings.

because that is what Christ said to do. When you do what Christ told you to do that makes you a Christian.

Where is that located in Biblical teachings and since that is not necesarrily a prinicple unique to nor indicative of Christians in no way "makes us a Christian nation"

Except for the principle of no government authority over religion, did I ever say that Bible spells out the principles of a central government?

The arguement made was that we are founded on Christian principles, you try to insinuate on which is not convincing at all and totally ignored the many other founding priniciples I listed.

So go down the list I have posted twice now and tell me where they are in the Bible.
I say “An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia“ was not at variance with the opinions James Madison he later expressed in his Detached Memoranda. What do you say?


I say this has nothing to do with the direct questions I have asked you, if you can't respond to what I ask it will be very hard to have a conversation about what we are discussing.

Simply whether or not our founding principles are based on the Christian faith making us a Christian nation.
 
Stinger said:
Where is that located in Biblical teachings and since that is not necesarrily a prinicple unique to nor indicative of Christians in no way "makes us a Christian nation"

James Madison took it from Matthew 22:21. The boy had a lot of Baptist in him for an Anglican. I suspect Jefferson got it from the same source. Haven't you ever head of Soul Liberty?

Stinger said:
The arguement made was that we are founded on Christian principles

The Separation of Church and State is a Christian Principle. James Madison said so in his Detached Memoranda.

Stinger said:
So go down the list I have posted twice now and tell me where they are in the Bible.

Why? It is not my list, it is yours.

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Texans Loved the Separation of Church and State in 1845

Read the excerpts presented below to learn what the delegates to the Texas Constitution said about the Separation of Church and State at the 1845 Constitutional Convention.

Mr. Baylor spoke in support of the proposed ban on members of the clergy serving as State Legislators and said that the ban was calculated to keep clear and well defined the distinction between Church and State, so essentially necessary to human liberty and happiness. Page 163, Debates of the Texas Convention. Wm. F. Weeks, Reporter, published by authority of the convention, Houston, Published by J.W.Cruger, 1846.

Mr. Davis said The only reason why I rise is that during my canvass in Liberty County, I was accused of wishing to unite Church and State, in consequence of my opinions upon this subject. I deny that it is uniting Church and State to permit ministers of the gospel to participate in the legislation of the country. Page 167, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Davis expressed his view that if an effort is desired to be made by the religious portion of the community to unite Church and State, may it not as well be made by the members of the churches as ministers of the gospel? Page 167, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Love pointed out that Protestants marked out a different line of policy. They said it was wrong to unite church and State, wrong that the law should settle the rule of faith, and regulate the religion of Jesus Christ. They would not admit that men should be subject to human authority in matters of opinion: they denied the right to control the conscience, it claimed the right to worship as they pleased; although they submitted to the authority of the law, necessary to prevent crime and preserve the good order of society. It was the cause of the success of Protestantism. Page 170, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Brown said that religion and politics are things that must forever run in parallel lines which never meet; for whenever they meet, there is contamination, and religion has in it much more of earth than heaven. Page 177, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Brown I am not willing upon any consideration to relinquish the principle that Church and State, by every mode that can enter into the imagination of this body, should be kept separate, that neither may become corrupt, that religion should have its, powerful sway and benefit influence over private life, and that political affairs should rest in the hands of political men: This, sir, is a discrimination which I feel bound to observe. Page 177, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Brown - It seems to me safer and better for the institution of religion and better for the institution of government, that the two bodies, both grasping at power, both capable of forming contributions, formidable to liberty on the one hand and to religion on the other, should be kept forever separate and distinct. Page 177, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Evans stated they have declared in that Bill of Rights that all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences: that no man shall be compelled to attend or support a place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent that no human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience: and that no preference shall ever be given by law, to any religious societies, or mode of worship. Is not that article amply sufficient guard and security against the union of church and state? If not, I will go with any gentleman to make it stronger. But how does the exclusion of the ministers of religion from our legislative halls tend to defeat the ruin of church and state. What bearing has such an exclusion upon it? I say it has none at all. Page 184, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Love - In no county has there been a set of preachers who have more zealously striven to do their duty, and they have done it. Why have they done it? Because they have not mixed politics with religion. Page 172, Debates of the Texas Convention.

Mr. Broward said he was in favor of excluding ministers of the Gospel from any participation in the affairs of government. He saw, however, no necessity of expressing a reason and if there should be any he would have it a just one. If he should vote for the section, it was not for the sake of preserving the church pure and uncontaminated but for the sake of political security. He would move to strike out that part of the section relating to their "dedication to God, and the care of souls." Page 165, Debates of the Texas Convention.

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/constitutions/pdf/pdf1845debates/00000016.pdf

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FredFlash said:
James Madison took it from Matthew 22:21. The boy had a lot of Baptist in him for an Anglican. I suspect Jefferson got it from the same source. Haven't you ever head of Soul Liberty?

How does that establish us as a Christian nation, it's Jesus saying pay your taxes.

The Separation of Church and State is a Christian Principle.

A premise not shown to be factual and certainly not believed by Evangelicals. I am not a Christian and firmly believe in a seperation of church and state and in fact a WALL of seperation, it doesn require a Christian faith or philosophy to hold that as an inportant principle.

But that is only one of the many principles we were founded on and not a uniquely Christian one even if we accept your premise and certainly not practiced by truely "Christian" countries. Taking your premise for a moment if it were a "Christian" principle why did it take so long to get a "Christian" country to abide by it.


ie, me asking you once again to respond to the list of founding principles I have posted twice how

Why? It is not my list, it is yours.


Because we are having a discourse here, a debate, we ask each other questions, take our position and defend them.

I take it as a sign you can't explain how the founding principles I listed are founded in Christianity and are dodging now. And since I listed many more than the one you have tried to show as evidence your arguement doesn't seem to have much merit.
 
Dear Stinger:

Many Christians of the founding era believed the legal principle of no government authority over religion was ordained by Christ. One of these was James Madison.

Have you ever read the first section of his Memoria and Remonstrance where he lays down the theological foundation of the exemption of religion from the cognizance of the government? That section is where the Supreme Court in 1878 found the definition of religion and the demonstration that religion is exempt from the power of the civil government.

Fred
 
FredFlash said:
Dear Stinger:

Many Christians of the founding era believed the legal principle of no government authority over religion was ordained by Christ.

And many didn't, and certainly those who were not Christian thought the same. It is not a "Christian" principle since Christians believe in only god and it being a sin not to believe in that God and most Christians do NOT believe in a seperation of Church and State. Your cited on mention what Jesus said about taxes. And as I said it that is what makes a Christian what took so long to establish one.

Have you ever read the first section of his Memoria and Remonstrance where he lays down the theological foundation of the exemption of religion from the cognizance of the government?

Yes and it certainly didn't establish us as a Christian Nation but if you can point to where his points there are in the Ten Commandments or in Biblical teachings please do. Where does the Bible say people should worship any god they please and where are all the other principles I listed?

From your cite:
"Because finally, "the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience" is held by the same tenure with all our other rights."

Which is in direct conflict with Christian teachings.
 
If the First U. S. Congress wanted to prohibit the central government from establishing religion, why did it establish two religions in 1789 by electing Chaplains to Congress and paying them from the national taxes?
 
FredFlash said:
If the First U. S. Congress wanted to prohibit the central government from establishing religion, why did it establish two religions in 1789 by electing Chaplains to Congress and paying them from the national taxes?

That did nothing of the sort and once again dodges my very simple question. Where in the bible are he items on the list of our founding principles found. It is said we are founded on Christian priniciples then point to them in the Bible.

Right to Habeous Corpus
Right to trial by a jury of your peers
Right to a free press
Right to keep and bear arms
A federal republic form of government
no taxation without representation
 
The answer in resolving this argument is quite clear.. those that feel strongly about having the Ten Commandments displayed.. buy some private property, and slap it on down there. No harm, no foul, right? The image can STILL be seen by those that wish to see it. And on the flip side, these damn cases can go away, and we can get back to the task of fixing the rest of our *****ed up government.
 
debate_junkie said:
The answer in resolving this argument is quite clear.. those that feel strongly about having the Ten Commandments displayed.. buy some private property, and slap it on down there. No harm, no foul, right? The image can STILL be seen by those that wish to see it. And on the flip side, these damn cases can go away, and we can get back to the task of fixing the rest of our *****ed up government.

I couldn't agree more. And the religious zealots should beware. Look what happen to Judge Roy Moore when he tried to declare us a Christian Nation. He was rejected and forced out of office and is doing terribily in his bid for governor.
 
tired, sorry

10 commandments is definately a religious and non-secular idea. This is demonstrated by the first commandment speaking directly of the god of a specific set of religions.
The court is a government owned building. By being a government owned building, it cannot respect an establishment of religion (the ten commandments) because of the establishment clause.
No matter the majority's size, you can't have any preference for one set of religions/denominations over others.

As for christian nation:
Just because we are as jesus wanted us to be, in this aspect and not others, does not that we do it for jesus.
 
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