Supreme Court leans toward ending affirmative action in college admissions

[eohrnberger]

I wonder if they will get rid of minority scholarships too

Why not just merit based scholarships? Is there an issue with merit based scholarships?

 

[highroller]

Why not just merit based scholarships? Is there an issue with merit based scholarships?

Will the NAACP be outlawed due to this court?

 

[PoS]

And tge test can be racially biased.
The sat throws out questions that a majority of people miss.
Well studies find out that their are questions that black people miss way more than white people...but they don't get thrown out because they are a minority..
But meanwhile they were questions that white people missed way way more than black people. But they got thrown out because white people are a majority.
Which gives white people and advantage.

Bullshit. Ive taken the SAT, there were no racial bias questions whatsoever in it. If more blacks fail the SAT its because they dont study hard enough.

As far as Asians doing well...the Asian experience is not exactly like other races in america. Each race is unique in its cultural and economic experience.

More bullshit. Asians have been discriminated against, and there were even laws restricting them from immigrating into the country in the past. During WW2 the entire Japanese population was even forced into camps, and they lost everything. Yet now, they are more highly educated than whites.

Tests can be racially biased.
It can be as simple as the fact tge more you take the sat..the better your score through experience.
The sat costs money. Those with less money can't take tge test multiple times.
Their are also tutoring programs and books for the sat. Those with more money ..i.e. such as a wealthier race..will have an advantage.

I took the SAT once and passed, so it didnt cost me anything. Your claims of structural racism are moronic.

 

[NatMorton]

I'll be happy to review any evidence of this. Could we have a link?

The facts of the Harvard case have been well publicized. You shouldn’t be having to ask others to fetch you the information. In fact, if you’re commenting on this thread and want to be taken seriously, you should have already read about it.

 

[snakestretcher]

The facts of the Harvard case have been well publicized. You shouldn’t be having to ask others to fetch you the information. In fact, if you’re commenting on this thread and want to be taken seriously, you should have already read about it.

I'm British, live in England and these things seldom appear in UK news. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[NatMorton]

Skip to 6:45 and you will quickly understand the problem with using race for college admissions:

Sowell really is one of the great American intellectuals of the last century. And he should be considered among the greats of African American society alongside Du Bois and King, but politics won’t allow it.

 

[NatMorton]

I'm British, live in England and these things seldom appear in UK news. Thanks for your understanding.

Fair point. I didn't realize that was your first post in the thread. Apologies.

 

[snakestretcher]

Fair point. I didn't realize that was your first post in the thread. Apologies.

No worries

 

[jgarden47]

Well. Gosh no.
As pointed out.. the Asians are way overrepresented at harvard.. UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM..
Kind of hard to claim Harvard is " throwing Asians to the street"..now isn't it.

You silly people.

1) Given that the Asians entering America tend to represent from the more educated and affluent members of their societies, these individuals aren't truly representative of the nations from which they come - conversely, other visible minorities (Blacks, Hispanics) usually come from the other end of the socio-economic spectrum and aren't privy to any of these advantages!

2) I doubt the sons and daughters of the millions of rice farmers and those living in rural areas in Asia manage to overcome the odds and find themselves enrolled in Harvard!

3) Given that foreign students are required to pay much higher tuition fees than Americans when enrolling in its public colleges and universities, it could be argued that their presence actually provides these institutions with a "financial windfall" - that can in turn be reinvested to make higher education more affordable for US citizens!

 

[jgarden47]

SAT mean scores of high school seniors taking the SAT, by sex and race/ethnicity: 2021​
Sex and race/ethnicity​	Mean score1​
Total SAT score​	Evidence-based reading and writing (ERW)​	Math​
All students​	1060​	533​	528​
Sex​	​	​	​
Male​	1067​	530​	537​
Female​	1054​	535​	519​
Race/ethnicity​	​	​	​
White​	1112​	562​	550​
Black​	934​	477​	457​
Hispanic​	967​	490​	477​
Asian​	1239​	597​	642​
Pacific Islander​	950​	481​	469​
American Indian/Alaska Native​	927​	468​	459​
Two or more races​	1116​	565​	551​
No response​	976​	483​	493​

1 Possible scores on each SAT section range from 200 to 800, for a total possible score of 400 to 1600.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171

Bullshit. Ive taken the SAT, there were no racial bias questions whatsoever in it.
If more blacks fail the SAT its because they dont study hard enough.. Asians have been discriminated against, and there were even laws restricting them from immigrating into the country in the past. During WW2 the entire Japanese population was even forced into camps, and they lost everything. Yet now, they are more highly educated than whites.

I took the SAT once and passed, so it didnt cost me anything. Your claims of structural racism are moronic.

1) Assuming that intelligence is evenly distributed and not determined by race, how does one account for the marked discrepancy between different races groups - should we assume that Whites and Asians the only racial groups capable of studying?

2) SAT tests are constructed based on the assumption that those being tested have experienced similar opportunities to acquire the same educational background knowledge on which they're being questioned!

3) The significant variation in scores for different racial groups either reflects that some races are inherently more intelligent than others (a discredited racist theory) or that the results are more of a measure of the discrepancies that currently exist within the American educational system, not intelligence!

 

[NatMorton]

All students​	1060​	533​	528​
Total SAT score​	Evidence-based reading and writing (ERW)​	Math​
Sex and race/ethnicity​	Mean score1​
SAT mean scores of high school seniors taking the SAT, by sex and race/ethnicity: 2021​
Sex​	​	​	​
Male​	1067​	530​	537​
Female​	1054​	535​	519​
Race/ethnicity​	​	​	​
White​	1112​	562​	550​
Black​	934​	477​	457​
Hispanic​	967​	490​	477​
Asian​	1239​	597​	642​
Pacific Islander​	950​	481​	469​
American Indian/Alaska Native​	927​	468​	459​
Two or more races​	1116​	565​	551​
No response​	976​	483​	493​

1 Possible scores on each SAT section range from 200 to 800, for a total possible score of 400 to 1600.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171



1) Assuming that intelligence is evenly distributed and not determined by race, how does one account for the marked discrepancy between different races groups - should we assume that Whites and Asians the only racial groups capable of studying?

You could assume that whites and Asians are studying more.

2) SAT tests are constructed based on the assumption that those being tested have experienced similar opportunities to acquire the same educational background knowledge on which they're being questioned!

No, they are not constructed that way. They are constructed to assess how much has been learned.

3) The significant variation in scores for different racial groups either reflects that some races are inherently more intelligent than others (a discredited racist theory) or that the results are more of a measure of the discrepancies that currently exist within the American educational system, not intelligence!

No, the SAT test is not an intelligence test. More than anything it's a test of how much has been learned in a given subject area.

 

[jaeger19]

Bullshit. Ive taken the SAT, there were no racial bias questions whatsoever in it. If more blacks fail the SAT its because they dont study hard enough.

More bullshit. Asians have been discriminated against, and there were even laws restricting them from immigrating into the country in the past. During WW2 the entire Japanese population was even forced into camps, and they lost everything. Yet now, they are more highly educated than whites.

I took the SAT once and passed, so it didnt cost me anything. Your claims of structural racism are moronic.

1. You would think someone who took the sat would know its not a " pass /fail " test! Lol.
So..if it's not racially biased. How do you explain that there are test questions that the majority of black people answer correctly but the majority of white people miss?
Is it because white people don't study hard enough? Please explain.
( by the way the questions that the black people get but the white people don't are thrown out)
2. Sure Asians have been discriminated against. But not in tge same ways as other racial groups and thus with varying economic and social impacts.
3. " I passed". Wow..that was telling

 

[eohrnberger]

Will the NAACP be outlawed due to this court?

I dunno. I rather doubt it. Is there any by-laws of the NAACP which dictate the requirement to be a 'Colored People'? I dunno, but I rather doubt it.

 

[Hatuey]

No, but I'm entitled to them nonetheless, with or without your approval.

Always gotta make it about you, cause there is no politics in that brain, just brain rotting axioms.

 

[DiAnna]

Always gotta make it about you, cause there is no politics in that brain, just brain rotting axioms.

Feel better now?

 

[Hatuey]

Feel better now?

More last worditis, we get it. Women don't need AA, cause DiAnna says so, on the internet.

Yay.

 

[choiceone]

The best explanations of difference are that there is a distinct difference in economic circumstances, both for early childhood and later. Earlier is of course better. What are we to do for people living in sub-standard housing with lead pipes the lead of which can ruin the intellectual capacity of everyone? What can a parent do to compete with other parents for providing every kind of intellectual stimulation in the environment and makes use of every tested product to help their kids at 3, 4, and 5?

As for later on, it isn't just the quality of schools. Wealthy and middle class families and, later, students, can easily hire tutors for SAT or go to one of the tutorial schools for it. I tutored second language students for TOEFL and the verbal sections on the SAT and GRE (like LSAT) privately for years. Students were from Japan and South Korea.

One of the smartest men I taught was incapable of English listening and speaking when we met, but he had a PhD in medicine from a good university, had done his dissertation in English, and was a teaching doctor at his university hospital. His whole school system had been linked to his university, so he never had to take the same kind of test that was usual for Japanese universities. And he didn't do well on the verbal sections at all until he had learned what I taught, i.e., how to read the verbal sections for the potential questions.

In my experience, the younger the students were who did the tutorials, the longer they studied and practiced, the better they got. You could just do self-practice at home and, following the basic advice given in the practice materials, you get a better result. If you came from a family with enough money, you could spend a huge amount of time in school studying and practicing for the test. If your school had also geared your preparation for the test, you'd be fabulous.

As for math, China, Korea, and Japan have schools that teach way more advanced materials than do most US schools, so of course people from there are better in math. Asian Americans from some Asian nations and with this legacy in their families, which can go beyond the school, are going to do well.

These are probably the biggest reasons for the differences.

 

[Good4Nothin]

There is another way to address this. Income level is not a protected class, and it could serve as a means for legally lowering admission standards for disadvantaged students of all races, many of whom will still be black.

But it will require a mindset change for the folks at Harvard with the realization that not every white applicant is "privileged."

Lowering standards for low income students isn't as bad as lowering standards because of race, but it's still bad. Professors will face classes where some students are less able to learn what they are teaching. They will have to dumb down the lessons, and the more qualified students will learn less.

Unless they want to admit less qualified low income students, and give them catch up classes. And if they don't catch up they can't continue.

Another possibility -- only accept low income students who ARE intellectually qualified, but can't pay. I think some already do that though.

 

[NatMorton]

Lowering standards for low income students isn't as bad as lowering standards because of race, but it's still bad. Professors will face classes where some students are less able to learn what they are teaching. They will have to dumb down the lessons, and the more qualified students will learn less.

Unless they want to admit less qualified low income students, and give them catch up classes. And if they don't catch up they can't continue.

Another possibility -- only accept low income students who ARE intellectually qualified, but can't pay. I think some already do that though.

That is a good point, but it can be mitigated by having a basis toward lower income students who may not have the best scores in the applicant class but have scores that meet a minimum, necessary standard.

For argument’s sake, let’s suppose to be competitive in class in a given college students typically need to average 1400 on the their math and English SATs. Also suppose there are 1,000 seats in the freshmen class. So long as your pulling lower income kids with scores >= 1400 you’re not setting them up for failure, even if those kids didn’t score in the top 1,000 of applicants.

 

[Hatuey]

For argument’s sake, let’s suppose to be competitive in class in a given college students typically need to average 1400 on the their math and English SATs. Also suppose there are 1,000 seats in the freshmen class. So long as your pulling lower income kids with scores >= 1400 you’re not setting them up for failure, even if those kids didn’t score in the top 1,000 of applicants.

Tell us you don't understand how socioeconomics affect test scores without telling us you don't understand how socioeconomics affect test scores.

 

[NatMorton]

Tell us you don't understand how socioeconomics affect test scores without telling us you don't understand how socioeconomics affect test scores.

I don understand them, which is why income level is a better way to handicap applicants than is race.

(And income level handicapping also has the happy characteristic of being legal.)

 

[Hatuey]

I don understand them,

We know but you gave a crazy opinion nonetheless. You'd rather make poor people handicapped than black people. Lucky for you, black people already have the highest income handicaps.

Yay, two birds in one Southern Strategy stone.

 

[NatMorton]

We know but you gave a crazy opinion nonetheless. Not sure what else you want people to say?

Nothing crazy about an opinion I’ve give here. It’s just that you’ve jumped to conclusions and are now scrambling to make your comment sound reasonable.

 

[Hatuey]

Nothing crazy about an opinion I’ve give here.

Of course it is crazy, you want poverty handicaps in place at educational facilities. Works out great that minorities have most of these handicaps, so you make it about income.


Lol, I bet you're brilliant in your neighborhood. .

 

[MAGAnificent]

Shocking that this SCOTUS would overrule decades of precedent including previous SCOTUS decisions.

Slavery was once decades of precedent. Should that have remained settled law? How long is enough for affirmative action policies? Slavery no longer exists and the civil rights bill ended segregation, Martin Luther King never intended a permanent advantage until the end of time.