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Supreme Court hands narrow win to baker over gay couple dispute

The "state" is the government. The couple went to the state and cried "He won't bake us a cake".

Now what "others" are you talking about?



Explain how I am dodging a scenario that you never presented to me?

When you acknowledge that you did not present such a scenario to me in the first place and retract the accusation I was "dodging" it, they I will be glad to address it.

.

The law was put into place by the government. The Commission is specifically there to investigate and enforce these laws. Why would they not go to them?

The Commission found that the baker had discriminated against 5-6 other same sex couples during their investigation of this complaint. It is in the ruling, which has been posted here already.

Post 115. The question was asked.
 
1.) I see you couldn't meet the paragraph challenge.:lol:
2.)He refused to make the cake based on his "feelings"?
3.) He refused based on his Christian beliefs, not some nondescript feelings.
4.) Oh, and yes, it would be hostile to Judaism and Islam, too, in a similar situation.
5.) Bringing up women and minorities and whatever other themes you'd like to throw into your word goulash, is simply a distraction to change the topic under discussion.
6.) You can blabber all you want about AD/PA laws but we are only talking about THIS law as applied in THIS case. When and if another case comes up, I'll be happy to discuss it.


YES!!! you chose B again!!!!

1.) do you know what a paragraph is? wow like hostility you must not LMAO you do know there's only ONE paragraph in my post right?
2.) yes
3.) thats still just his feelings
4.) well at least you are consistent in your factually wrong claim
5.) translation: you are scared to answer the question because it further exposes your factually wrong claim. . got it, your dodge is noted lol
WHy do you post so many lies when they are easily exposed. ALL of that has to deal with your claim of hostility towards religion
6.) uhm . . THIS law is a PA/AD law, wow you just keep proving how topically uneducated you are :lamo
well your deflections got destroyed again


so here we are, heres your statment:
The law, as designed, is hostile to Christians serious about their religion, so the law itself is what is at fault. .

we are still waiting, please provide one fact that makes it true, one thanks!

this challenge goes to ANYBODY by the way . . can ANYBODY support this factually wrong claim and make it true?
 
The law was put into place by the government. The Commission is specifically there to investigate and enforce these laws. Why would they not go to them?

The Commission found that the baker had discriminated against 5-6 other same sex couples during their investigation of this complaint. It is in the ruling, which has been posted here already.

Post 115. The question was asked.

No retraction huh?

Interesting.
 
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Obviously, this guy saw the law as hostile to him and his religious view or he wouldn't have had his case in front of the SCOTUS. He saw it as so hostile that he refused to obey it. I mean, is this really difficult for you?

How he ( or his financial backers) saw it is irrelevant in terms of the law. I'm sure bank robbers see the law as hostile.

The decision went his way because the commission did not treat him fairly. It's not carte blanche for him to discriminate against gay people in his business.
 
How he ( or his financial backers) saw it is irrelevant in terms of the law. I'm sure bank robbers see the law as hostile.

The decision went his way because the commission did not treat him fairly. It's not carte blanche for him to discriminate against gay people in his business.

I guess we'd need another case to make such a determination. The SC should have resolved the issue this time. Basing the decision on the fact that the commission said nasty things to him seems guaranteed not to resolve the issue of whether this law, or any similar one, violates the 1st amendment. I'd expect a future case to arise.
 
No retraction huh?

Interesting.

sweet irony and hypocrisy since post 77 was completley ran from and dodged!LMAO


interesting indeed :)
 
I presented the question in post 115. Did you miss that part? That was the post before the one where I said you dodged.

You did not present that scenario to me, therefore I could not have dodged it.

Again, I will be glad to address that scenario as soon as you retract the allegation that I had avoided a question you never asked me.

... and btw, i found no link to any 5-6 decision on this thread.
 
YES!!! you chose B again!!!!

1.) do you know what a paragraph is? wow like hostility you must not LMAO you do know there's only ONE paragraph in my post right?
2.) yes
3.) thats still just his feelings
4.) well at least you are consistent in your factually wrong claim
5.) translation: you are scared to answer the question because it further exposes your factually wrong claim. . got it, your dodge is noted lol
WHy do you post so many lies when they are easily exposed. ALL of that has to deal with your claim of hostility towards religion
6.) uhm . . THIS law is a PA/AD law, wow you just keep proving how topically uneducated you are :lamo
well your deflections got destroyed again


so here we are, heres your statment:


we are still waiting, please provide one fact that makes it true, one thanks!

this challenge goes to ANYBODY by the way . . can ANYBODY support this factually wrong claim and make it true?

One sentence can be a paragraph. I guess you're an English expert now, too. :lol:
 
One sentenced can be a paragraph. I guess you're an English expert now, too. :lol:

that is correct a sentence CAN be but its rare and its doesnt mean all sentences are paragraphs. not to mention most of my post were questions and there were not 7+ paragraphs . . wow . . factually wrong AGAIN!!!!
how many times is that now you post a laugh emjoi and then get proved factually wrong? LMAO

We are still waiting BTW
please pride one fact that makes your statment below true . . one . . . thanks!
T The law, as designed, is hostile to Christians serious about their religion, so the law itself is what is at fault.
 
Consistent, yet that is still not right, especially not given our dependent society. We are dependent on each other for service and sometimes that means that we have to force people to do business so that groups are not allowed to fairly function, live within a society due to widespread discrimination.

I actually figured that, but plenty of those who fight for religious freedom, do not feel that way. There is more like three different groups on this issue, those like me who feel that it balances the power by forcing businesses to serve people, regardless of things such as race, religion, sex, sexuality, etc, those like you who feel that no one should be forced to serve anyone for any reason, and those who believe that in some cases a business should be forced to serve people regardless of their race, religion, sex, sexuality, etc, unless it conflicts with their specifically approved of religious beliefs (the list could vary per person).

I believe you need to rethink why you support such legislation because the reasoning you have offered is either very weak and/or implausible.

First, we actually have a mostly "(inter)dependent society" which has been a part of civilized life at least since the founding of Caytl Hauk nearly 10,000 years ago. Since then, there have only been two different kinds of interdependency - by choice (merchants and customers) or by force (government, warlords, or criminals).

Second, no one needs to "force" business to do business. Trade of value for value is how people have made money and acquired wealth, and since the oldest merchants of antiquity it has been self-actualized human drive. Those who have chosen not to participate do so knowing others will fill their place. (For example, Christians considered it a sin to earn interest off loans in medieval Europe, so Jews became the bankers that provided loans, spawned growth and profited from that market).

Third, what do terms like "fairly functioning" and "balances power" mean? It could not mean 'fairly functioning" is balancing power, because if that were so then what "balance" is there between a baker whose livelihood is threatened and faces ruin if he does not obey the dictates of a customer, or a customer whose total "cost" is to simply use one of many to 'fill' the void?

Fairness and equality of power must mean the free and equal choice of sellers and buyers to trade. You might think how someone uses his freedoms is foolish or is repulsive but, like free speech, people are free to not participate in any activity they don't wish to. And if people do not wish to associate with one another (discriminate) who are we to dictate otherwise?

We all have an equal "power" (equal rights) to act on behalf of one's own pursuit of happiness, but not to force others to cease their pursuit.
 
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1.) You might think how someone uses his freedoms is foolish or is repulsive but, like free speech, people are free to not participate in any activity they don't wish to. And if people do not wish to associate with one another (discriminate) who are we to dictate otherwise?
2.)We all have an equal "power" (equal rights) to act on behalf of one's own pursuit of happiness, but not to force others to cease their pursuit.

1.) there is no force since nobody forces this guy to be a baker PA business those were all his CHOICES. the claim of force has always failed and been intellectually dishonesty
2.) correct and AP/AD laws do NOTHING to change that . . absolutely nothign . . take them away though and equal rights goes out the window
 
The worst ignorance I can think of is when you not only don't understand something, but you are so sure you understand it that you go around telling others how little they understand because of your own false interpretation. I can only pity people who do this.

Pot calling the kettle black, although this is closer to the pot calling the stainless steel frying pan black.



Ah, okay. So just about every restaurant in Wisconsin is breaking the law then, because there is a law on the books that states restaurants have to give out water and pickles for free. Most don't. There's a law in North Carolina that says atheists can't run for public office, so I guess any atheist that runs for public office is breaking the law.


You're throwing out strawman arguments now. This has nothing to do with the point. Whether or not a law gets enforced is irrelevant as to whether it can be enforced. Looking at your water example, any law enforcement official (which can include inspectors in this context) can certainly go in and fine the restaurant for failing to comply with the laws. Although I would like a link to that law. Sounds rather made up to me, especially with the pickles. Water alone would be more believable. But given our lawmakers not out of the realm of possibility.

As to the atheist running for public office, that makes for a great example of how the overall legal system works across the three branches. The legislature of NC at some point decided to put the law into place. As soon as it passed and was signed by the governor, it became enforcable. It is now up to the executive branch (which controls law enforcement agencies ranging for police to regulation agencies) to enforce the law. If someone within the line decided that they would rather go after more serious law violations and not enforce this specific law, that doesn't mean the law is unenforceable. It's similar to people driving over the speed limit. Just because they don't pull you over for 5 mph over the limit doesn't mean that they can't. Finally, say an atheist runs for office and they remove him from the ballot per this law. He or she now can challanged that law in the judicial system. It will of course be found to be in violation of the first amendment among other laws. If the candidate in question knows of the law before running, he can't go to the courts, but has to try to have it repealed via the legislature.

All of this is basic Civics 101 usually taught in high school if not Jr High/middle school. Either you failed that or you are of the young generation that doesn't teach this stuff anymore.

Frying pans....who knew?

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Almost like the judicial branch makes the decision of how to interpret what limitations there are on people's rights.

True but only when the law itself is challenged. Which was not the case here. The issue at hand for SCOTUS was the baker's rights with regards to how he was treated by the commission, not whether his rights were violated by discrimination laws. That is why the SCOTUS decision is narrow in scope and only affects the commission's treatment of the man.

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No retraction huh?

Interesting.
Why should she? She literally and directly asked you the question in a post that was a direct reply to you. Here it is.

Should the baker be allowed to discriminate there or is it only those who believe that same sex couple weddings are wrong that get that privilege?

To deny this question was asked is a lie. The first time you might have been able to say you missed it. Human enough. But as soon as she have you the post number, to claim otherwise is dishonesty.

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I guess we'd need another case to make such a determination. The SC should have resolved the issue this time. Basing the decision on the fact that the commission said nasty things to him seems guaranteed not to resolve the issue of whether this law, or any similar one, violates the 1st amendment. I'd expect a future case to arise.

They couldn't. They can only rule on what is presented to them. The law itself is not what was brought before the court. Thus they cannot rule on the law.

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You did not present that scenario to me, therefore I could not have dodged it.

Again, I will be glad to address that scenario as soon as you retract the allegation that I had avoided a question you never asked me.

... and btw, i found no link to any 5-6 decision on this thread.

Straight lie, or blatant ignoring of the post. As I showed, it was indeed asked in a post that was a direct response to your post. Therefore it was presented to you.

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I believe you need to rethink why you support such legislation because the reasoning you have offered is either very weak and/or implausible.

First, we actually have a mostly "(inter)dependent society" which has been a part of civilized life at least since the founding of Caytl Hauk nearly 10,000 years ago. Since then, there have only been two different kinds of interdependency - by choice (merchants and customers) or by force (government, warlords, or criminals).

Second, no one needs to "force" business to do business. Trade of value for value is how people have made money and acquired wealth, and since the oldest merchants of antiquity it has been self-actualized human drive. Those who have chosen not to participate do so knowing others will fill their place. (For example, Christians considered it a sin to earn interest off loans in medieval Europe, so Jews became the bankers that provided loans, spawned growth and profited from that market).

Third, what do terms like "fairly functioning" and "balances power" mean? It could not mean 'fairly functioning" is balancing power, because if that were so then what "balance" is there between a baker whose livelihood is threatened and faces ruin if he does not obey the dictates of a customer, or a customer whose total "cost" is to simply use one of many to 'fill' the void?

Fairness and equality of power must mean the free and equal choice of sellers and buyers to trade. You might think how someone uses his freedoms is foolish or is repulsive but, like free speech, people are free to not participate in any activity they don't wish to. And if people do not wish to associate with one another (discriminate) who are we to dictate otherwise?

We all have an equal "power" (equal rights) to act on behalf of one's own pursuit of happiness, but not to force others to cease their pursuit.
With this it should be noted that 1) this power does not rest with the employee, save for his choice to work or not work for another, but to the business owner(s) only. And 2) this power does not belong to the government at any level or its employees, or with emergency services.

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Pot calling the kettle black, although this is closer to the pot calling the stainless steel frying pan black.






You're throwing out strawman arguments now. This has nothing to do with the point. Whether or not a law gets enforced is irrelevant as to whether it can be enforced. Looking at your water example, any law enforcement official (which can include inspectors in this context) can certainly go in and fine the restaurant for failing to comply with the laws. Although I would like a link to that law. Sounds rather made up to me, especially with the pickles. Water alone would be more believable. But given our lawmakers not out of the realm of possibility.

As to the atheist running for public office, that makes for a great example of how the overall legal system works across the three branches. The legislature of NC at some point decided to put the law into place. As soon as it passed and was signed by the governor, it became enforcable. It is now up to the executive branch (which controls law enforcement agencies ranging for police to regulation agencies) to enforce the law. If someone within the line decided that they would rather go after more serious law violations and not enforce this specific law, that doesn't mean the law is unenforceable. It's similar to people driving over the speed limit. Just because they don't pull you over for 5 mph over the limit doesn't mean that they can't. Finally, say an atheist runs for office and they remove him from the ballot per this law. He or she now can challanged that law in the judicial system. It will of course be found to be in violation of the first amendment among other laws. If the candidate in question knows of the law before running, he can't go to the courts, but has to try to have it repealed via the legislature.

All of this is basic Civics 101 usually taught in high school if not Jr High/middle school. Either you failed that or you are of the young generation that doesn't teach this stuff anymore.

Frying pans....who knew?

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You said that rights are restricted when the law is written, and I argued that rights are not restricted until the courts rule an interpretation on the law. So by you saying laws written are what restricts the right, then every law on the books of every municipality are limiting rights. So this law that restaurants have to give out free water and pickles is actually restricting rights according to your argument. I disagree. Now you say this has nothing to do with the point, yet it perfectly illustrates why you are wrong.
 
You said that rights are restricted when the law is written, and I argued that rights are not restricted until the courts rule an interpretation on the law. So by you saying laws written are what restricts the right, then every law on the books of every municipality are limiting rights. So this law that restaurants have to give out free water and pickles is actually restricting rights according to your argument. I disagree. Now you say this has nothing to do with the point, yet it perfectly illustrates why you are wrong.

First we have to note that because a law restrictions a right, it doesn't mean it properly does so, or maybe better to say that the restriction is a legitimate restriction.

As an example of a legitimate restriction let's look at property right. I have the basic overall right to do anything I want with my property, and in this case I am talking real estate. Now if there is something that I would do that causes harm to another's property, such as chemicals I use on my lawn could leach onto a neighbor's property, then my right to use those chemicals can legitimately be restricted.

If a right is restricted, but it is not a legitimate restriction, say a law that prevents one from writting science fiction stories, while the law does violate a right, it is still enforceable until either the legislature repeals the law, or the law is challanged by someone to whom the law has been enforced against.

The courts can not rule for or against a law unless and until that law is brought before them. Which means that every law that does restrict a right is enforceable until such a time.

This is why the law that states that a business owner cannot discriminate against, in this specific case, homosexuals, is still enforceable. The law itself did not come up before SCOTUS.

I agree that a private business owner should be allowed to decide whom they will and will not do business with for any reason, no matter how asinine that reason. To do otherwise is a violation of private property rights and freedom of association rights.

The point that you keep moving off of is that the law has to be challanged in court before the court can rule on it. Whether or not said law actually restricts, legitimately or illegitimately, a right is irrelevant as to the conditions by which the courts are allowed to rule on the law.

This baker, for which the thread is focused upon, did not appeal the case upon the premise of the law being an illegitimate restriction of his rights, but on the premise of the commission violating a different set of rights in rendering their judgement. That is why the SCOTUS decision does not affect any discrimination laws.

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First we have to note that because a law restrictions a right, it doesn't mean it properly does so, or maybe better to say that the restriction is a legitimate restriction.

As an example of a legitimate restriction let's look at property right. I have the basic overall right to do anything I want with my property, and in this case I am talking real estate. Now if there is something that I would do that causes harm to another's property, such as chemicals I use on my lawn could leach onto a neighbor's property, then my right to use those chemicals can legitimately be restricted.

If a right is restricted, but it is not a legitimate restriction, say a law that prevents one from writting science fiction stories, while the law does violate a right, it is still enforceable until either the legislature repeals the law, or the law is challanged by someone to whom the law has been enforced against.

The courts can not rule for or against a law unless and until that law is brought before them. Which means that every law that does restrict a right is enforceable until such a time.

This is why the law that states that a business owner cannot discriminate against, in this specific case, homosexuals, is still enforceable. The law itself did not come up before SCOTUS.

I agree that a private business owner should be allowed to decide whom they will and will not do business with for any reason, no matter how asinine that reason. To do otherwise is a violation of private property rights and freedom of association rights.

The point that you keep moving off of is that the law has to be challanged in court before the court can rule on it. Whether or not said law actually restricts, legitimately or illegitimately, a right is irrelevant as to the conditions by which the courts are allowed to rule on the law.

This baker, for which the thread is focused upon, did not appeal the case upon the premise of the law being an illegitimate restriction of his rights, but on the premise of the commission violating a different set of rights in rendering their judgement. That is why the SCOTUS decision does not affect any discrimination laws.

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That's all true in the legal sense but that the law in this case impinged on Phillips' religious liberties is certainly apparent, at least to him. Had he not thought so, he would have made the cake. While strategically it may have been better to challenge the commission for its actions, it still leaves open the question of what the court might decide in regard to the law itself and that is what we need answered.
 
First we have to note that because a law restrictions a right, it doesn't mean it properly does so, or maybe better to say that the restriction is a legitimate restriction.

As an example of a legitimate restriction let's look at property right. I have the basic overall right to do anything I want with my property, and in this case I am talking real estate. Now if there is something that I would do that causes harm to another's property, such as chemicals I use on my lawn could leach onto a neighbor's property, then my right to use those chemicals can legitimately be restricted.

If a right is restricted, but it is not a legitimate restriction, say a law that prevents one from writting science fiction stories, while the law does violate a right, it is still enforceable until either the legislature repeals the law, or the law is challanged by someone to whom the law has been enforced against.

The courts can not rule for or against a law unless and until that law is brought before them. Which means that every law that does restrict a right is enforceable until such a time.

This is why the law that states that a business owner cannot discriminate against, in this specific case, homosexuals, is still enforceable. The law itself did not come up before SCOTUS.

I agree that a private business owner should be allowed to decide whom they will and will not do business with for any reason, no matter how asinine that reason. To do otherwise is a violation of private property rights and freedom of association rights.

The point that you keep moving off of is that the law has to be challanged in court before the court can rule on it. Whether or not said law actually restricts, legitimately or illegitimately, a right is irrelevant as to the conditions by which the courts are allowed to rule on the law.

This baker, for which the thread is focused upon, did not appeal the case upon the premise of the law being an illegitimate restriction of his rights, but on the premise of the commission violating a different set of rights in rendering their judgement. That is why the SCOTUS decision does not affect any discrimination laws.

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And you talk to me about Civics 101. lol First of all, what the Executive Branch is really enforcing is the interpretation of the law. Second of all, when a person is perceived to break a law, they are either tried in court where a a judge/jury interprets the law or they go to some sort of civil court where a judge interprets the law. If the judge rules in the defendants favor, any perceived transgression was illegitimate. You were wrong. It's okay. Stop doubling down, it's time to move on.
 
That's all true in the legal sense but that the law in this case impinged on Phillips' religious liberties is certainly apparent, at least to him. Had he not thought so, he would have made the cake. While strategically it may have been better to challenge the commission for its actions, it still leaves open the question of what the court might decide in regard to the law itself and that is what we need answered.

I am not disagreeing with that. I am only noting what the court is and is not allowed to do. They had no ability to rule on that law as much as we might have wanted them to. There just seems to be others who don't get that this ruling did nothing to change what one is restricted from in business.

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And you talk to me about Civics 101. lol First of all, what the Executive Branch is really enforcing is the interpretation of the law. Second of all, when a person is perceived to break a law, they are either tried in court where a a judge/jury interprets the law or they go to some sort of civil court where a judge interprets the law. If the judge rules in the defendants favor, any perceived transgression was illegitimate. You were wrong. It's okay. Stop doubling down, it's time to move on.

Says the guy who keeps seeing the raise. The initial judge, or jury as the case may be, rules on whether or not it can be proven that the defendant broke the law. Being declared innocent has nothing to do with whether or not the law is legitimate in its restrictions or not or is enforceable or not. A judge doesn't rule on whether the law was legitimate or not in the initial trial. That is where the challenge of the law comes in, after a defendant appeals the case, if he is claiming that the laws was in violation of his rights or another law.

All of which still doesn't address the point you keep trying to move away from. The courts can only rule on that which is brought before them. The only thing brought before SCOTUS is the actions of the commission, not the law itself. Therefore the ruling does not affect the law and it is still in effect, meaning that the baker is still supposed to bake the cake for a same sex wedding, or be guilty of violation of the discrimination laws. The ruling does not say that not baking the cake was within his rights.

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Says the guy who keeps seeing the raise. The initial judge, or jury as the case may be, rules on whether or not it can be proven that the defendant broke the law. Being declared innocent has nothing to do with whether or not the law is legitimate in its restrictions or not or is enforceable or not. A judge doesn't rule on whether the law was legitimate or not in the initial trial. That is where the challenge of the law comes in, after a defendant appeals the case, if he is claiming that the laws was in violation of his rights or another law.

All of which still doesn't address the point you keep trying to move away from. The courts can only rule on that which is brought before them. The only thing brought before SCOTUS is the actions of the commission, not the law itself. Therefore the ruling does not affect the law and it is still in effect, meaning that the baker is still supposed to bake the cake for a same sex wedding, or be guilty of violation of the discrimination laws. The ruling does not say that not baking the cake was within his rights.

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It's funny how you told me rights are restricted by the legislative branch in such a rude manner, and now every time you get cornered on the issue into admitting that the judicial branch actually does because a legislative law has no meaning until it's interpreted, you go back to talking about this specific case. That's your trick is bouncing between generalities and this specific case. I've made my points. I'll stand on them. Oh yeah, and in Civics 101, you're taught that people are found "guilty" or "not guilty". Innocent isn't an option.
 
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