Support for U.S. troops rally draws a massive... 400

[cnredd]

Why arent American Muslims killing other Americans then? I have never seen a Koran with the word American in it have you? Let me stop you right there because I know you are gonna say something about "infidels" but Osama is very clear why he hates America and being an unbeliever in the Koran isnt one of his reasons. Also Osama is pissed because the U.S. said they would leave after defending the House of Saud from the threat Saddam posed to them after invading Quwait (another lie posed by the American Goverment) yet they never left Perhaps he was thinking that since he and his "band of terrorists" were used against the Soviets then he could also be used against his enemy Saddam

Let's go to the actual letter from Bin Laden and see if you're wrong or not...

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

Looks like your "being an unbeliever in the Koran isnt one of his reasons." doesn't pass the smell test...:roll:

 

[Kandahar]

I'm sorry but that is simply not the case. The known reserves in ANWAR are enough to offset the Saudi's for estimates between 10 to 15 years. Just the known reserves and as noted known reservers throughout the world go UP every year. That's enough to pressure the middle east supplies.

1. I don't know where you got that fact from, but the estimated reserves in Saudi Arabia are about 260 billion barrels, compared to 25 billion barrels for the United States.

2. Known reserves HAVE increased every year...but they will not continue to do so for much longer. Sometime between 2005-2010, we will reach peak oil production, then will begin the slow decline of oil reserves.

I think we see that and we know who they are, but what purpose does it serve. Why does the left want us to whallow in it?

Because war is hell, and if Americans are willing to support an unprovoked war and extensive occupation, they sure as hell better wallow in it and see the consequences. If they still support it, fine. But at least they'll realize the tradeoff.

What they are amazed at is the misreporting of the good we are doing over there. And this is the most reported war in our history. Go back and look at how WW2 was "sanatized".

It's true that the good things are not commonly reported in the news media...but that's primarily because the bad outweighs the good by far. You can spin this any way you like, but it's the truth.

And nice way to conveniently change the subject and ignore everything I said, so I'll repeat it: Returning soldiers are commonly amazed at the complete indifference and unawareness of most Americans that their nation is at war.

Do YOU believe war is not horrific?

What *I* believe about war is of little relevance to the debate on whether or not this war is sanitized. The average American has absolutely no idea what war is like, and if he supports a war it is typically a tacit "Yeah, whatever" kind of support, rather than a "Yes! I've been saying we should invade Iraq for years!" kind of support.

News reporters have to tell you it is?

No. But news reporters DO have to tell the average American it is.

But the fact is if it does lower our morale and aid the insurgents do you believe the media should do everything in it's power to do so?

If being exposed to the truth lowers our nation's morale, so be it. At least people will have the truth and can make up their minds.

So you don't believe you are capable of making an informed decission?


You haven't made up your mind?

I love how you turn all of my references to "Americans" into personal attacks with little or no relevance to the point I just made. It's quite an effective debate tactic. And by effective, I mean idiotic.

And they are as much a part of this country as the rest are they not?

Yes. But they are not the only Americans.

Well I have a son over there and one to go later this year so I guess my views trump yours.



So I guess my views trump yours since I am having to sacrifice.

English must not be your first language. Either that or you are intentionally ignoring any points you don't want to hear.

Better than marching lockstep behind the brilliant military strategist Cindy Sheehan.

Oh right, because the only two options that exist are marching lockstep behind George Bush or marching lockstep behind Cindy Sheehan. You are such an idiot, I don't know why I'm even bothering trying to explain this to you.

What doesn't make sense and we do not control the oil fields the Iraqi's do.

Under American guard, and on the condition that they give us oil at reduced prices.

There most certainly were terrorist there and terrorist training camps and a Secret Police and Intelligence force that developing very close ties with all sorts of terrorist groups. There is no doubt that Saddam was developing alliances with terrorist and supporting terroist causes, mainly attacking the US and assests.

The only terrorism that Saddam Hussein ever sponsored was Hamas, which was hardly interested in attacking the United States.

That is a specious point which is belied by the evidence developed by the Senate Hearings and the 9/11 Commission and what we have uncovered in Iraq. He was involved with terrorist because he supported their Muslim causes, he was in it for his own gain and he saw the advantage of working with them.

First of all, Saddam Hussein was an agnostic and he was despised by every major Islamist group in the world without a single exception. Second of all, you can't just pull "facts" out of your ass like that and expect everyone to believe them. The 9/11 commission found NO link between Baathist Iraq and Islamic terrorists.

Well Fox News is a very good source with some of the most in depth reporting on the subject but the 9/11 commission and the Senate Hearings and the Kay and Duelfer reports all substantiate exactly what I have been saying. Perhaps you listen to a little too much Air America.

I don't even know what Air America is, but from the context I assume it's the dumbed-down liberal equivalent of FOX News.

No, I get my information from INTELLIGENT sources on all sides of the political spectrum and from many different countries.

Oh well that's real convincing. What stupidity.

Well, you're the one who claimed that protesting was a substitution for trying to convince voters that you're right. I was simply pointing out that, effective or not, that is obviously what they're trying to do.

 

[Moderate]

It refers to unbelievers.. Thats the big word with the "U" in the beginging. And the simple fact is they have no problem killing anybody that does not believe exactly what they do. This includes other muslims, christians, jews, woman, chldren.. ect ect...

"If God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty." (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )

This section of the Koran talks about the sanctity of other institutes where God has been given praise, and credits Jews and Christians for helpping spread the word of God and that they should be respected.

"Today all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Book is also lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste women from among the believers and chaste women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who disbelieve, his actions will come to nothing and in the hereafter he will be among the losers." (Surat al-Mai'da: 5)

This section deals with how laws passed down by Jewish and Christian Doctrine do not go agaisnt God's will because they have each been given instructions by Gods Prophets.

Again if they respect the Churches and Temples that spread the word of God and repect the ideals of Christians and Jews because they believe that they are also instructions from god, then your interpretation and the interpretation of the fundamentalist are wrong.

The history of Islam contradicts the principles of the fundamentalists. And it seems you see Islam in the same way.

 

[Stinger]

This will only prolong the problem, we need to get off of oil not find more of it. I'd rather spend millions over a decade getting off of oil then spend millions trying to stay on it.

WHY? Oil is a very good source of energy, the market will do very good at determining how much to spend and when to divert that spending to other sources, if we let the market work.

Once we're not dependent on oil we won't be dependent on the Middle East at all. That would be a much better idea.

If we allow our own producers to do their job then we can better balance the market forces internationally.

Why destroy a Wild Life Refuge and spend billions when we will be in the same situation 30 years from now?

No one will be destroying it so that's a strawman arguement.

BTW a report out today from Exxon and the Saudi's have upped the known reserves, in fact doubled them. They now stand at over 3 TRILLION barrels. Over twice as much than as ever been used.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

"If God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty." (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )

This section of the Koran talks about the sanctity of other institutes where God has been given praise, and credits Jews and Christians for helpping spread the word of God and that they should be respected.

"Today all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of those given the Book is also lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. So are chaste women from among the believers and chaste women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who disbelieve, his actions will come to nothing and in the hereafter he will be among the losers." (Surat al-Mai'da: 5)
Seems like were back to the non believers again
This section deals with how laws passed down by Jewish and Christian Doctrine do not go agaisnt God's will because they have each been given instructions by Gods Prophets.

Again if they respect the Churches and Temples that spread the word of God and repect the ideals of Christians and Jews because they believe that they are also instructions from god, then your interpretation and the interpretation of the fundamentalist are wrong.

The history of Islam contradicts the principles of the fundamentalists. And it seems you see Islam in the same way.

FIRST- The funny thing is you keep saying "me" or "you". But I am not the one using the words of the Quran to drive a huge number of muslims to kill innocent people. You can quote all the nice and friendly passages you want. The problem is they are not reading and passing those passages on. There reading and interprting the ones I am talking about. You want to get into a quote war we can do that. I can give you quotes:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

Here's one you might realy like. The Book according to you I believe is the bible. SO

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Doesn't sound like they are all to fond of you no matter what. And all the flowery versus you can pull mean nothing. Because they are not the versus these people are following when they detonate a homemade bomb in the midst of a group of small children.

 

[Moderate]

After reading some of your other posts I find that arguing with you is irrelevant. Only radicals believe in the way you say that all Muslims believe. You don't know the history of Islam and how it has treated Christians and Jews for hundreds of years. You only seem to give notice to a very small group and try to say that that is what Islam is all about.

Its like trying to look into a room through a key hole. You may see somthing but never the whole room.

The fact is the history of Islam contradicts your ignorance. While I detest muslim fanatisism I know enough to not assume they all are fundamentalists.

Your ignorance plagues this country and will help in keeping any worthy peace between the west and islam from ever happenning.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

After reading some of your other posts I find that arguing with you is irrelevant. Only radicals believe in the way you say that all Muslims believe. You don't know the history of Islam and how it has treated Christians and Jews for hundreds of years. You only seem to give notice to a very small group and try to say that that is what Islam is all about.

Its like trying to look into a room through a key hole. You may see somthing but never the whole room.

The fact is the history of Islam contradicts your ignorance. While I detest muslim fanatisism I know enough to not assume they all are fundamentalists.

Your ignorance plagues this country and will help in keeping any worthy peace between the west and islam from ever happenning.

Ya know what .. Screw you .. You don't like it then **** off. I never said ALL. Yet your dumb ass keeps saying I did. If your not smart enough to comprehend a basic sentence then maybe it's you thats friggin ignorant. The book contradicts what you say. If your ignorance is so entrenched that you can't accept it then tough ****. They kill woman and children on a regular basis. But what the fuk. you should defend there right to murder because you found a passage that say there good. Well guess what, there not. They don't represent all muslims. But stop trying to paint them all in a Rosy light. This also goes for the Koran as well. Again learn to comprehend something just a bit. Trying to be a elitist is great. But your illequiped for the job

 

[Moderate]

Ya know what .. Screw you .. You don't like it then **** off. I never said ALL. Yet your dumb ass keeps saying I did. If your not smart enough to comprehend a basic sentence then maybe it's you thats friggin ignorant. The book contradicts what you say. If your ignorance is so entrenched that you can't accept it then tough ****. They kill woman and children on a regular basis. But what the fuk. you should defend there right to murder because you found a passage that say there good. Well guess what, there not. They don't represent all muslims. But stop trying to paint them all in a Rosy light. This also goes for the Koran as well. Again learn to comprehend something just a bit. Trying to be a elitist is great. But your illequiped for the job

They kill women and children on a regular basis? Where does it say that in the Koran? Where in the world does this take place and is considered normal?

You said that the Koran tells them to hate us? I found quotes that say they respect us. It wouldn't be the first time that the sacred text of a religion was in contradiction to itself (aka the Bible)

And when you say that Islam teaches people to hate us then YOU ARE SAYING EVERYONE. Unless your saying that the radicals have the right interpretation of Islam? And if that is the case then you really should do some research. I have not met a muslim yet that agree'd with Bin Laden, are you saying that the people I know aren't true Muslims?

Your just so full of hate, it is easy for you to look at one group of people and exagerate them to be all evil then to say that some are bad and most are good.

AND YOU ARE SAYING ALL OF THEM WHEN YOU SAY ISLAM TEACHES...

 

[Calm2Chaos]

They kill women and children on a regular basis? Where does it say that in the Koran? Where in the world does this take place and is considered normal?

It takes place in Iraq all the time. Civilians are being killed on an almost daily bases. And it seems like the targets are not military but other muslims, workers ,police ect ect

You said that the Koran tells them to hate us? I found quotes that say they respect us. It wouldn't be the first time that the sacred text of a religion was in contradiction to itself (aka the Bible)

And I understand that. But the hate is whats being taught to these murderers not the peace

And when you say that Islam teaches people to hate us then YOU ARE SAYING EVERYONE. Unless your saying that the radicals have the right interpretation of Islam? And if that is the case then you really should do some research. I have not met a muslim yet that agree'd with Bin Laden, are you saying that the people I know aren't true Muslims?

I am talking about the ME and with the ME. I am not talking about Americans persay but people that don't believe what they believe

Your just so full of hate, it is easy for you to look at one group of people and exagerate them to be all evil then to say that some are bad and most are good.

AND YOU ARE SAYING ALL OF THEM WHEN YOU SAY ISLAM TEACHES...

Your reading a lot more into the statement then was intended

 

[cnredd]

Ya know what .. Screw you .. You don't like it then **** off. I never said ALL. Yet your dumb ass keeps saying I did. If your not smart enough to comprehend a basic sentence then maybe it's you thats friggin ignorant. The book contradicts what you say. If your ignorance is so entrenched that you can't accept it then tough ****. They kill woman and children on a regular basis. But what the fuk. you should defend there right to murder because you found a passage that say there good. Well guess what, there not. They don't represent all muslims. But stop trying to paint them all in a Rosy light. This also goes for the Koran as well. Again learn to comprehend something just a bit. Trying to be a elitist is great. But your illequiped for the job

[Moderator mode]
:smash:
Yo!

We'll have NONE of that!

Personal attacks of this nature are WAY out of bounds for this forum...

If you feel you can't control your emotions, then I suggest you walk away from your PC for a few minutes or take your venting to the Basement and relieve yourself however you may wish...

But DON'T spew this in the public area where actual debate is encouraged.

[/Moderator mode]

 

[Calm2Chaos]

[Moderator mode]
:smash:
Yo!

We'll have NONE of that!

Personal attacks of this nature are WAY out of bounds for this forum...

If you feel you can't control your emotions, then I suggest you walk away from your PC for a few minutes or take your venting to the Basement and relieve yourself however you may wish...

But DON'T spew this in the public area where actual debate is encouraged.

[/Moderator mode]

He'll live.... If not, tough **** he can talk about my ignorance some more.

 

[Moderate]

It takes place in Iraq all the time. Civilians are being killed on an almost daily bases. And it seems like the targets are not military but other muslims, workers ,police ect ect

Its still considered a crime and is brought on by a faction of muslim faith. The same **** happend between protestants and catholics.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Its still considered a crime and is brought on by a faction of muslim faith. The same **** happend between protestants and catholics.

Who said it wasn't a crime? I am saying that it happens, and it happens many time without consideration of who is around, and in the name of allah. Kuran doesn't make the distinction of collateral damage or civilians.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

The situation in Iraq is unfolding just like the events did during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Afghan insurgents targeted civilians, children who went to schools, and basically anyone who had anything to do with any institutions the Soviets or the Soviet friendly Afghan Government built. Over the 10 years that the Soviets occupied Afghanistan, their casualty rates were about like what ours have been. The war was extremely expensive for them, but they averaged about 1000 or so combat deaths a year. They ended up killing about 100,000 Afghan insurgents, yet 10 years later, they were no closer to securing the nation than they were when they went in. Wars like that are practically impossible to win.

A lot of people mistakenly try to compare Iraq to Vietnam. The far more accurate comparison is to compare our occupation of Iraq to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.