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Stravation vs. Lethal injection...why not, Liberals?

Strangelove

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Odd how worlds collide.....

It occured to me as the liberal democrats are blathering on and on about 'right to die' this, and 'dignity of death' that ,and that they are the ones who demanded lethal injeciton for death row inmates, (then they hold a candle-light vigil :lamo )., they should have no problem poking 'ole Terri with a needle full of poison.

So Terri Schiavo's slow death by starvation is 'humane'.

Why aren't they truly being consistent, and advocating a LETHAL INJECTION?, which, by their definition, would in fact be humane.

Or how about the partial birth abortion procedure whereby a sharp implement is inserted into the brain and the brain removed through a suction tube.?

Where's Peter Singer?
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0049.html

Apparently, a woman (and girl) has the 'right to choose', but not the right to lve.

By the way, I do not think Congress should intervene. I believe the Florida decision should stand.
 

Urethra Franklin

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Strangelove said:
Odd how worlds collide.....

It occured to me as the liberal democrats are blathering on and on about 'right to die' this, and 'dignity of death' that ,and that they are the ones who demanded lethal injeciton for death row inmates, (then they hold a candle-light vigil :lamo )., they should have no problem poking 'ole Terri with a needle full of poison.

So Terri Schiavo's slow death by starvation is 'humane'.

Why aren't they truly being consistent, and advocating a LETHAL INJECTION?, which, by their definition, would in fact be humane.

Or how about the partial birth abortion procedure whereby a sharp implement is inserted into the brain and the brain removed through a suction tube.?

Where's Peter Singer?
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0049.html

Apparently, a woman (and girl) has the 'right to choose', but not the right to lve.

By the way, I do not think Congress should intervene. I believe the Florida decision should stand.
You should get out more. Too much televangelist viewing gives you strange ideas.
 

shuamort

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Strangelove, the problem I find with your statement is that it’s a compression of multiple ideas being presented as one. It’s like saying “Have you stopped using illegal sales practices?” (This asks two questions: did you use illegal practises, and did you stop?)

Allow me to de-construct your argument a bit and let me know if I go astray from your intents.

1)Liberals believe in the “right to die”
2)Liberals don’t believe in the death penalty
3)The right to die in this case involves starvation.
4)Starvation is not humane.
5)Lethal injection as opposed to starvation would be more humane
6)Shouldn’t liberals want to be more humane?
7)Lethal injection is a product of the death penalty.
8 )Thus liberals wouldn’t want lethal injection because it would be a product of something they’re against.
9)Liberals are for abortion
10)Liberals are for the right to choose
11)Liberals are against the right to live.

(edited to get rid of the smiley on #8
 

Strangelove

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shuamort said:
Strangelove, the problem I find with your statement is that it’s a compression of multiple ideas being presented as one. It’s like saying “Have you stopped using illegal sales practices?” (This asks two questions: did you use illegal practises, and did you stop?)

Allow me to de-construct your argument a bit and let me know if I go astray from your intents.

1)Liberals believe in the “right to die”
2)Liberals don’t believe in the death penalty
3)The right to die in this case involves starvation.
4)Starvation is not humane.
5)Lethal injection as opposed to starvation would be more humane
6)Shouldn’t liberals want to be more humane?
7)Lethal injection is a product of the death penalty.
8 )Thus liberals wouldn’t want lethal injection because it would be a product of something they’re against.
9)Liberals are for abortion
10)Liberals are for the right to choose
11)Liberals are against the right to live.

(edited to get rid of the smiley on #8
That's a good assessment. Being honest, I agree with your breakdown of my position, except for #11.

I don't think all liberals are 'bad', and want people to die.

In fact, in this case, as I've mentioned, I agree with the liberal position. I don't think this issue belongs in court, and certainly not in Congress as federal legislation.

As my post states, where is the consistency?

Why aren't the compassionate liberals who can demand a painless death for a triple murderer on death row, also calling for a painless, quick death for Terri Schiavo?

...and I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

Let's hear yours.
 

Batman

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Can someone explain to me why "human rights" advocates think:
underwear on prisoners heads - playing loud music - and sleep deprivation
is considered torture when it comes to terror suspects and starvation in Terri's case is not?
 

shuamort

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Thanks for the assessment on the 10. I can't speak for liberals as I'm not one. Really.

I've got a feeling that this thread could get messy as there's a lot to tackle here, so let me throw that out first. We've got three main issues here, abortion, death penalty, and plug-pulling (which for all intents and purposes, I'll call "assisted suicide").

Typically, liberals are:
1)Pro-abortion.
2)Anti-death penalty.
3)Pro-Assisted Suicide.

Typically, conservatives are:
1)Anti-abortion
2)Pro-death penalty
3)Anti-assisted suicide.

Those tend to be the party positions, but people, being people, have swapped one for the other for whatever reasons.

All three of these situations deal with life and its time on this earth. If you look at the three situations without depth, you'll see that they seem hypocritical along both sides of the coin. How could one be for the death penalty but against assisted suicide? How could one be pro-abortion but think that the death penalty is wrong? One could always carry the fetus to term and give it up for adoption and a criminal can always carry on in a cell in a prison as well.

The problem with the perceived inconsistencies is that there is rationale behind them and that the issues are bit deeper than life and death.

I agree with you about the Schiavo case. It's very unsettling that she's had the feeder tube removed and will be starved for two weeks until she dies. According to her husband according to her..."that's what she wanted". As the laws are in Florida, a remedy to end her life more quickly isn't legally available. Injecting someone who isn't on death row with pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride is a no-no. (I think I've got all the facts right here, but please correct me if I missed something).

I guess the bigger question for the masses should be, should we allow people who have signed a waiver prior to getting into these state to have a lethal injection should they ever get to this point?
 

toymr2trd

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:eek: ..... I just had a good discussion w/ some liberal friend here and I gotta tell you guys.... He said.... this should be the business of the husband and wife. It doesn't matter what the courts has to say ... Let the choice that the husband made go ahead....
 

Schweddy

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shuamort said:
I guess the bigger question for the masses should be, should we allow people who have signed a waiver prior to getting into these state to have a lethal injection should they ever get to this point?
Wow, that is indeed something to ponder. Then we would have to choose how far we go with that.

Doc, she has an ear ache - would you mind?

Welcome to DP toymr2trd, hard to believe but that position is not unique and it doesn't seem to be specifically party line.
 

Strangelove

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shuamort said:
We've got three main issues here, abortion, death penalty, and plug-pulling (which for all intents and purposes, I'll call "assisted suicide").

]
You can't even call it that, because 'assisted suicide' is just that-assisted. It requires the person in question to make the decision, and apply some directive,which is clearly not the case here. Terri is not requesting this action. We only have heresay from her husband, whose motives are dubious at best.

'physician assisted death' is the accurate term, and far more distasteful....but that's reality.

shuamort said:
I've got a feeling that this thread could get messy as there's a lot to tackle here, so let me throw that out first.
Typically, liberals are:
1)Pro-abortion.
2)Anti-death penalty.
3)Pro-Assisted Suicide.

Typically, conservatives are:
1)Anti-abortion
2)Pro-death penalty
3)Anti-assisted suicide.

Those tend to be the party positions, but people, being people, have swapped one for the other for whatever reasons.

All three of these situations deal with life and its time on this earth. If you look at the three situations without depth, you'll see that they seem hypocritical along both sides of the coin. How could one be for the death penalty but against assisted suicide? How could one be pro-abortion but think that the death penalty is wrong? One could always carry the fetus to term and give it up for adoption and a criminal can always carry on in a cell in a prison as well.

The problem with the perceived inconsistencies is that there is rationale behind them and that the issues are bit deeper than life and death.

I agree with you about the Schiavo case. It's very unsettling that she's had the feeder tube removed and will be starved for two weeks until she dies. According to her husband according to her..."that's what she wanted". As the laws are in Florida, a remedy to end her life more quickly isn't legally available. Injecting someone who isn't on death row with pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride is a no-no. (I think I've got all the facts right here, but please correct me if I missed something).

I guess the bigger question for the masses should be, should we allow people who have signed a waiver prior to getting into these state to have a lethal injection should they ever get to this point?
I don't see it as that complicated.

I see a clash of values based on a religious ethic, and that's it.

most, not all, Conservatives (often religious) get their values from the Judaeo-Chrsitian ethic.

most, not all,Liberals (often secular humanist) get their values from themselves.

examples: Billy Graham on the right (pro-life, pro-death penalty, anti-assisted suicide---all biblical principles)

Peter Singer on the left (pro-abortion,anti death penalty,pro suicide)

..of course there are shades of variation within that schema, yet for purposes of the discussion, I contend the generalization retains validity.
 

shuamort

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Strangelove said:
You can't even call it that, because 'assisted suicide' is just that-assisted. It requires the person in question to make the decision, and apply some directive,which is clearly not the case here. Terri is not requesting this action. We only have heresay from her husband, whose motives are dubious at best.

'physician assisted death' is the accurate term, and far more distasteful....but that's reality.
Fair enough. The Schiavo case is a sticky one since she didn't have anything written nor was able to consent to what has happened.
Strangelove said:
examples: Billy Graham on the right (pro-life, pro-death penalty, anti-assisted suicide---all biblical principles)
It's the pro-death penalty that gets a bit messy as while I agree with you that it is a principle in the bible that people are punished by death (stoning etc), there's also the "Thou shalt not kill" thing that throws it a bit of a curveball. The Pope John Paul II has spoken out against the death penalty but said "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." (And oddly enough, a story about Catholics support for the death penalty dropping below 50%.With the release of the poll at the start of Holy Week, church leaders announced the Catholic Campaign to End the Use of the Death Penalty.)
 

freedom69714

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Hi Strangelove I must ask you for your honest opinion please be honest .

If you were in Terri's place would you want to live that way.
Because 85% of Americans say they do not.

You must be honest with yourself do not use the bibles point of view or the Republican point of view ....Please explain to me what good do you think living like this will do you.

P.S Just using the bible is copping out Terri can not feel any joy she can not feel any pain I feel what the religious right and the Republicans are doing to this woman is disgusting.
 

Strangelove

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Freedom69 said:
Hi Strangelove I must ask you for your honest opinion please be honest .

If you were in Terri's place would you want to live that way.
Because 85% of Americans say they do not.

You must be honest with yourself do not use the bibles point of view or the Republican point of view ....Please explain to me what good do you think living like this will do you.

P.S Just using the bible is copping out Terri can not feel any joy she can not feel any pain I feel what the religious right and the Republicans are doing to this woman is disgusting.
I would not want to live that way, no.

I would not use the Bible to ensure my ongoing care, no.

I would not want my earnings given to evil insurance companies,no.

however, THIS CASE IS NOT ABOUT YOU,ME, OR THE EASTER BUNNY. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT WE THINK.

What I am driving at is the hypocrisy of the anti-death penalty, pro-abortion, lethal-injection for murderers--liberal left.

WHY DON'T LIBERALS HAVE THE STONES TO LOUDLY CALL FOR A LETHAL INJECTION FOR TERRI SCHIAVO

And not one liberal has dared to answer the question, either here or on my blog.

That is the reason for me starting this discussion
 
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shuamort

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Here's a request:
Leaving aside the moral arguments for and against allowing this person to die, not to mention the susequent court ruling which should have finalized her fate, I simply wish that the cause of death could be something less barbaric than starvation. Even condemned criminals on Death Row have access to a humane death, one which puts a person to sleep painlessly before a quick end to life. But Schiavo doesn't have this option given to her as she will have her life taken away over 14 days without food and water.
And another:
Most of us would be appalled by the idea of starving a condemned prisoner to death, for instance, or withholding water until he died of thirst. We wouldn't, and in fact don't, as a society, do that to unwanted or even dangerous animals. For those creatures, we opt for the much more humane lethal injection. No such option for this disabled woman.
Of course, this posits an unproven possibility that the starvation is painless but has its doubts:
"She's not dying by starvation," Michael Schiavo told Larry King of CNN during a broadcast last week. "This is a natural, painless death. What happens is when you stop eating, your electrolytes will slowly diminish. You'll slowly go into a nice, deep sleep and then pass away."

If Terri is suffering, liberal pundits say, the "right-to-lifers" are to blame because of their opposition to euthanasia. Instead of receiving a quick lethal injection, she was doomed to a long and perhaps painful death thanks to conservative intolerance.
How's that for starters?
 

freedom69714

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Hey Strangelove It seems to me the far right and talk radio & FOX have done an awesome job on brain washing you.

I find it really ironic that a person who claims to be a communist can know Progressive / liberals so well.

I'll say it again FOX & talk radio & the far right have done an awesome job on brain washing you WOW.

As far as lethal injection goes if it wasn't for the religious right the united states should put people to sleep ........I know I would if I had it my way I do not understand why if you do believe in God and Heaven and if heaven is a peaceful place why wouldn't you want to go there when your in such bad shape all true life is over

Yes I know that in religion beliefs you should not take you own life but I'm sorry if I had to live like a vegetable I would want some one to give me a lethal injection how strange I can not even get my wish because it's against the law
 
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