Straight up, should we fund the wall?

[PoS]

Yes you did and using your logic we can put a lot of money back into our pockets. I do not want to fund their welfare, their education or their hospitalization. That will save me tons of cash that I could spend on my own children.

It was a straight up question and I gave it a straight up answer. If you want to move the goalposts thats up to you. I could care less how you spend your money.

 

[The Derp]

I believe that a well-built, well-maintained and properly-manned border security wall is a good idea, and one that I am happy to fund with my tax dollars.

^has never heard of ladders, tunnels, boats, and airplanes.

 

[ttwtt78640]

^has never heard of ladders, tunnels, boats, and airplanes.

Yep, why have a fence around the White House? Why have locks on your doors or windows when determined criminals can easily defeat them?

 

[The Derp]

The only tax money that crosses the border from the US to Mexico is foreign aid.

Wrong. Thousands of American companies hold subsidiaries and manufacturers in Mexico. Those products are manufactured there and then are exported to the US. So if you add tariffs on Mexican imports, you're adding cost to the products those American companies are bringing here. And do you think those companies won't pass the cost of those tariffs onto consumers?

 

[shades]

the wall is going to be built, patience
Trump is playing this immigration news like a five time world poker champ.

Democrats are staring at their cards and thinking, $hit I don't even have a pair and he's over there raising me.
What to do what to do. He just called your bluff cupcakes, your move

 

[The Derp]

The only tax money that crosses the border from the US to Mexico is foreign aid. Trump only considered that an option. Maybe you are referring to remittances? That's not tax money. Taking a piece of that won't be passed on to taxpayers...it'll go into the General Fund.

So it sounds to me like you're not 100% secure in the arguments you're making here. You use a lot of qualifier words like "considered" and "maybe"...you completely fudged yourself on the the tax money that crosses to Mexico (?). Not sure what you mean by that, but separate from the "tax money" (?) that goes to Mexico, there's a $71B trade deficit that raising tariffs won't close, won't come close to closing, and may actually expand.

The problem as I see it is that you all came up with the emotion first, and have been trying to justify it since. That says to me that it wasn't ever about economics or immigration, but rather racial resentment and insecurity. Why build a wall? To keep out brown people. There's no other reason why. And walls don't work either because people can just climb over them, fly over them, sail around them, or dig under them. So it's not deterring anything and is just serving as a monument to insecurity and xenophobia.

 

[The Derp]

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

I'm talking about the goalpost shifting of who pays for the wall...from saying Mexico would pay for it, to saying they would passively pay for it, to saying we will pay for it by way of increased costs to consumers.

 

[shades]

So it sounds to me like you're not 100% secure in the arguments you're making here. You use a lot of qualifier words like "considered" and "maybe"...you completely fudged yourself on the the tax money that crosses to Mexico (?). Not sure what you mean by that, but separate from the "tax money" (?) that goes to Mexico, there's a $71B trade deficit that raising tariffs won't close, won't come close to closing, and may actually expand.

The problem as I see it is that you all came up with the emotion first, and have been trying to justify it since. That says to me that it wasn't ever about economics or immigration, but rather racial resentment and insecurity. Why build a wall? To keep out brown people. There's no other reason why. And walls don't work either because people can just climb over them, fly over them, sail around them, or dig under them. So it's not deterring anything and is just serving as a monument to insecurity and xenophobia.

BINGO, that didn't take long did it.
What happened, the Russian nothing burger was tasting kind of stale huh? :rofl:
And now that Trump has fixed the child separation issue, we're back to the race card.

You folks are predictable, give you that

 

[The Derp]

Tell me...what happens when the price of a product goes up? The demand for that product goes down. Simple economics.

No. Not the case. Study any trade war you want, that never happens. So in addition to a hackneyed interpretation of immigration law, you're adding in economic ignorance to your argument.

It's these kinds of tactics that make it so easy for me to weaponize your incompetence and binary thinking to motivate non-voters to the polls.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

How would that even work?

Congress: Mexico, pay us $25B for a wall
Mexico: No.

So then what?

Trump dons his master deal maker outfit and makes Mexican funding happen.

...by crying to the US congress for US tax money?

 

[The Derp]

Those companies will move their operations OUT of Mexico. Any incentive they have to producing in Mexico will be eliminated by the Mexican government "going after" them.

So now you're advocating using government to compel the free market to act a certain way, according to your narrowed ideology. How is that not fascism?

You think all those American companies will simply pick up and leave their Mexican operations? You don't know much about business. You're kinda making this all up as you go.

 

[jaeger19]

actually they do because people can't just walk through the wall and steal money they have to work really hard at it. Putting as much time as you can between the theft of something and the process to steal it is deterrence.

Nope.. because banks have doors.. and you can just walk in.. just like any other customer. just like the border is going to have doors.. and all someone has to do is go up to the border and say "I am going to visit X for vacation"... just like when I go to mexico or Canada, I do the same. and then when in the us.. they simply stay. Which is how most illegal immigrants get here. they cross legally,, and then stay.

no the walls there are for security as well it is not 100% guaranteed security but then again I never said it was.

Nope.. its an illusion of security. Not real security.

actually I made a logical argument for it you argued against it by saying because walls aren't 100% guarantees of security there is no security which I disagree with and is factually wrong.

Nope you did not make a logical argument for it.. and I did not argue that "because walls aren;t 100% guarantees of security". a border wall offers no security.

there is no logical reason for it. Its not the major way that people come here.. it doesn;t address the REASON for illegal immigration, it would be costly, there are much better ways to secure the border.. namely focusing on employers.. etc.

I think it's kind of asinine to just enforce these laws on employers I don't know why you just randomly pick that one thing to enforce the law on.

Now that's funny. The reason illegal immigrants are here. is to work. plain and simple. Dry up the work.. and poof,, problem solved. Its not random.. its logical.

It also needs to be enforced upon housing agencies or landlords that rent houses to illegal aliens two tenants that sublet to illegal aliens 2 people who register vehicles for illegal aliens

.

there are no federal laws regarding this. There is no requirement that you be a citizen to rent a house.

And I think the most effective one of all more than your hatred for employers,

That's whats so funny. you are so mad at these illegal immigrants that are "breaking the law".. but you don't want to enforce the laws.. already on the books.. on the employers that hire them.

You should do some introspection about that.

would be to enforce a fine on any City that claims to be a sanctuary City of $1,000 a day per immigrant per day they have sanctuary and it should be retroactive but the fine should be a waived upon the city abandoning its Sanctuary City policy.

Yeah.. that's completely unworkable. How the heck how many "immigrants".. (note.. you did not say illegal .. you might want to do some introspection on that).. are going to be known for the feds to set such a fine?

Those steps would do far more than just attacking employers but I think you want to just attack employers because you don't want to hold the guilty people responsible.

Oh the irony.. "I" don't want to hold the guilty people responsible? You are the one that doesn't want to enforce the law on the employers breaking the law.

The wall will work your argument that walls don't really make things secure is asinine that's why we've built them for thousands and thousands of years.

Actually no.. we have built walls.. particularly border walls as symbols of power, and for the illusion of safety.

 

[The Derp]

Oh...and what happens when those companies bail on Mexico? They have less stuff to sell.

The companies aren't going to leave Mexico because you raised tariffs. All they're going to do is raise the prices of the products they import from there. And since Mexico is our third largest trade partner, after Canada and China (both of which you are also raising tariffs on), the rest of the market will raise their prices accordingly in order to compete for profits.

Do you even know what companies have manufacturing in Mexico? Most of what you put in your mouth that is processed comes from south of the border. Like M&M's, for instance.

 

[The Derp]

Bottom line: Mexico has no position of power over the US. The US holds every card. If Congress wanted to build a wall, they could. If they wanted Mexico to pay for it, they could. That's where the decision lies. The President can't do it and Mexico can't stop it.

Mexico enjoys a $71B trade surplus with us. Mexico is our third largest trading partner. Thousands of US companies rely on Mexican operations to export to the US. They hold the cards, not us.

You're in over your head.

 

[jaeger19]

Democrats don't really fight the Flat Earth theory and I know of no school that teaches that. Those people are just a bunch of cuckoo wackos, including the recent rocket man.

My kids actually go to a private Christian school that does teach Creationism but they do not teach anything Flat Earth. Surely you misspoke on that. I would say that the huge majority of the right, Christians, or Republicans, or whatever you want to call them, doesn't really believe Creationism lock, stock, and barrel. They have enough sense to know that the Earth isn't 6000 years old. But, they do believe that God created things at some point and then evolution took over from there. My personal belief is that God is the ultimate scientist who pushes all the buttons that make things happen, including the Big Bang, evolution, what have you.

Of course they do. And you know of few if any schools that teach it because of the fight against religion in public schools.. and the flat earth theory comes from religion.

the same with teaching biblical origins of earth rather than the science of the Theory of evolution.

I would say that the huge majority of the right, Christians, or Republicans, or whatever you want to call them, doesn't really believe Creationism lock, stock, and barrel

and that's in part because of the continued fight.. largely by democrats.. to keep religion teachings out of public school science and history classes.
..
According to your premise.. if the democrats fight against it.. then it must be true.... so according to that.. you should believe in the Flat earth and Creationism

 

[The Derp]

1) It was clearly a statment - your allegations were not substantiated.

"Allegation"? What allegation? What are you trying to say? This is the second time I've asked you to clarify your position in good faith, and you refuse.

2) Nonsense - many (if not most) illegal immigrants use fake IDs and/or ITINs.

So then they are paying taxes. So what's your problem? You say they send all their money back, then you say "well, they do pay taxes". They can't qualify for benefits, so it seems like you've been misinformed.

 

[tonyanzack]

I see no reason not pay for and build and maintain a border security wall to stop illegal immigration and to help prevent further drug/human/gun trafficking across the border.

I absolutely agree.

yes

now...on the left you will get definitive noes

and their rationale will be numerous reasons...some of it even valid

but the biggest reason why they cant abide the wall being built...it would be a WIN for Trump...and we cant have that now, can we?

You got it. The Left hate and hate and hate. They talk constantly about diversity, peace and dialogue, but they really, love to hate! The Left are hypocrites.

A resounded hell no, never. And if they somehow proceed with building the wall, I would implore AMericans to tear it down "Tear down these walls"

The wall should be a Top Priority.

Straight up...yes, we (Congress) should fund a wall. We MUST get a handle on the influx of illegal border crossers and this is the best way to do so.

Furthermore, we (Congress) should enact ways to extract money from Mexico to compensate us for the wall.

Now...will we (Congress) do this? I have my doubts. For various reasons (all personal money-related reasons), Congressmen think they are better off not funding the wall.

Yes indeed Mycroft. Well said.

 

[The Derp]

Local sales tax revenue is generated by money spent regardless of its source and property taxes are paid by all residents and businesses (legal or not).

So then they contribute to the economy, pay taxes, and don't send all their money back home after all.

So what are you complaining about?

The larger poiint, which you did not address, is that illegal immigrants do not qualify for (most) public assistance thus must work to support themselves - so you get cheap (forced?) labor that does not get (as much in) public subsidies.

So...

You say that they pay taxes.

You say that they spend money here.

You say that they don't qualify for benefits.

If you think they're driving down wages, whose fault is that? The immigrants or the business that knowingly uses that cheap labor to make a profit?

Still don't see what has your panties in such a twist about any of this, and why building a wall will somehow mitigate these things you say, that don't really seem like bad things -apart from the low wage issue which is the fault of the businesses and corporations- and instead seem like net benefits to society.

So this is really just about your racial insecurity, then.

 

[The Derp]

Okay. You've just lost any credibility you "might" have had with your claim of xenophobia.

I guess I triggered you.

 

[tonyanzack]

No. We should hold Trump accountable and make him get Mexico to pay for it like he swore over and over and over again.

He will, be patient.

No, get the money from Mexico or piss off.

Patience. Trump is a very smart guy, smarter than most liberals and they are afraid.

No, it is a waste of money. It might reduce the numbers of illegals coming over by a bit but not enough to make up for the expense. At the same time I don’t think it is the end of the world if it is built. If by some chance it works, great. If it doesn’t work then that is a waste of money the Republicans can be blamed for for years to come.

I can think of a lot cheaper ways to do it and provide employment to many Americans in the process. But, Lefties wouldn't like it.

 

[The Derp]

So those of us who do not wish to fund welfare for illegals can keep our cash?

Illegals don't get welfare. You're thinking of poor white trash.

 

[The Derp]

Yep, why have a fence around the White House? Why have locks on your doors or windows when determined criminals can easily defeat them?

How many people have jumped the fence at the White House? Didn't someone just do that a few months ago?

 

[tonyanzack]

Illegals don't get welfare. You're thinking of poor white trash.

Illegals get so much welfare, it's a National Scandal! What we need to do first, is stop the insanity of sanctuary cities and states.

 

[jaeger19]

How many people have jumped the fence at the White House? Didn't someone just do that a few months ago?

sorry.. not possible.

 

[Mycroft]

Mexico enjoys a $71B trade surplus with us. Mexico is our third largest trading partner. Thousands of US companies rely on Mexican operations to export to the US. They hold the cards, not us.

You're in over your head.

The entire Mexican economy depends upon trade with the US. Without us, they fold. Our economy does not depend upon Mexico. Without them, the US shrugs and moves on.

THAT'S why we hold the cards.

btw, I'm not going to answer 7 different posts that you used to respond to one of mine. That is akin to you spamming this thread and I won't be a part of it.