Straight History books

Any good history or current affairs books that you have personally read?
Just looking for any recommendations in that category...

You can never go astray with period writings from classical antiquity, especially those written by the Greeks. Three especially come to mind:

The Histories by Herodotus
History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
The Persian Expedition (or Anabasis) by Xenophon

The Histories provides a fairly representative perspective of what your average Ancient Greek probably thought about the world and life, geographically and morally speaking. Second half of the book encompasses The Persian War, the opening of which was recently filmed in the movie 300. Quite a bit of the dialogue for that movie can be traced directly to this book. It goes on a lot of tangents and is highly speculative. Really not my favorite, but as far as knowing what your layman Ancient Greek thought, it is the most informative.

History of the Peloponnesian War provides a good historical comparison for Cold War + Vietnam and the War in Iraq, as well as a compelling realist account of power relations among states. Definitely the most intellectually rigorous of the works from classical antiquity. Drawback? The writing is verbose and can be dense.

The Persian Expedition is about how a Persian price (Cyrus) attempts to overthrow his brother (the King) with the help of 10,000 Greek mercenaries. Cyrus gets slain during battle and the 10,000 attempt to parley with the Persian king for their safe return home. Things don't work out so well; the 5 Greek commanders are captured (and later executed) during the negotiation. So the army elects new 5 commanders, among them the author (Xenophon) to lead them across many hostile territories to get back to Greece.

Probably the most compelling fact I can note about books from Ancient Greece is that they provide a lot of information on the origin and foundation for modern education and democratic-republican political systems, how these systems interact with fascist/oligarchic/Imperial systems, the partisan tensions and "personality cults" which develop in these systems, and how a military operates in said systems; Xenophon and Thucydides especially make this clear.

I would go for the Persian Expedition. Xenophon is a more accessible writer than Thucydides and doesn't meander as much as Herodotus.

Morality Games said:

You can never go astray with period writings from classical antiquity, especially those written by the Greeks. Three especially come to mind:

The Histories by Herodotus
History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
The Persian Expedition (or Anabasis) by Xenophon

The Histories provides a fairly representative perspective of what your average Ancient Greek probably thought about the world and life, geographically and morally speaking. Second half of the book encompasses The Persian War, the opening of which was recently filmed in the movie 300. Quite a bit of the dialogue for that movie can be traced directly to this book. It goes on a lot of tangents and is highly speculative. Really not my favorite, but as far as knowing what your layman Ancient Greek thought, it is the most informative.

History of the Peloponnesian War provides a good historical comparison for Cold War + Vietnam and the War in Iraq, as well as a compelling realist account of power relations among states. Definitely the most intellectually rigorous of the works from classical antiquity. Drawback? The writing is verbose and can be dense.

The Persian Expedition is about how a Persian price (Cyrus) attempts to overthrow his brother (the King) with the help of 10,000 Greek mercenaries. Cyrus gets slain during battle and the 10,000 attempt to parley with the Persian king for their safe return home. Things don't work out so well; the 5 Greek commanders are captured (and later executed) during the negotiation. So the army elects new 5 commanders, among them the author (Xenophon) to lead them across many hostile territories to get back to Greece.

Probably the most compelling fact I can note about books from Ancient Greece is that they provide a lot of information on the origin and foundation for modern education and democratic-republican political systems, how these systems interact with fascist/oligarchic/Imperial systems, the partisan tensions and "personality cults" which develop in these systems, and how a military operates in said systems; Xenophon and Thucydides especially make this clear.

I would go for the Persian Expedition. Xenophon is a more accessible writer than Thucydides and doesn't meander as much as Herodotus.

Click to expand...

Since you clearly know a deal about the classics, I've been looking for a quote... I don't want to get into specifics because I might be wrong on details, but the quote basically talks about how magnificent Athens is but then goes onto say that without the military, it would burn to the ground(in a much different and more eloquent manner).

Details: I had thought that Herodotus said it in the defense of two generals on trial for large casualities sustained in one battle or another during the Peloponnesian War. They were to be executed, and(I had thought) Herodotus said a short dialogue in their defense. Does such a quote exist?

Anyway, thankyou.

Tubub said:

Any good history or current affairs books that you have personally read?
Just looking for any recommendations in that category...

Click to expand...

Wanna narrow it down a bit?

Since you clearly know a deal about the classics, I've been looking for a quote... I don't want to get into specifics because I might be wrong on details, but the quote basically talks about how magnificent Athens is but then goes onto say that without the military, it would burn to the ground(in a much different and more eloquent manner).

Details: I had thought that Herodotus said it in the defense of two generals on trial for large casualities sustained in one battle or another during the Peloponnesian War. They were to be executed, and(I had thought) Herodotus said a short dialogue in their defense. Does such a quote exist?

Anyway, thankyou.

Click to expand...

Well, Herodotus couldn't have written it if it was the Peloponnesian War, because he lived and wrote in the generation which came before it (aka, the Persian War). And it probably wasn't the Persian War, because an empty Athens was burned to the ground by Xerxes, its population fled in a bunch of ships; Themistocles was their supreme commander, and he led their navy in a decisive attack on the Persian fleet which broke Xerses's ability to continue a massive campaign in Greece. I can't think of an instance during the war where the Athenians suffered a from massive casualties, although the loss of their city was a sore blow (rebuilt by the time of the Peloponnesian War). So, it had to be Thucydides or Xenophon, probably Thucydides.

Demosthenes and Nicias were two Athenian generals during the Sicilian Campaign who were captured and executed, and nearly all the young, able men of Athens were killed, captured, executed, or enslaved in their attack on Sicily (which contributed to Athen's final defeat in the Peloponnesian War). They were executed after being captured; Thucydides probably would have said something in Demosthenes' defense because he was against the Sicilian Campaign from the very beginning and and had accomplished many fine military feets before the disaster.

But I can't find an exact quote based on the information you have given me.

Morality Games said:

Well, Herodotus couldn't have written it if it was the Peloponnesian War, because he lived and wrote in the generation which came before it (aka, the Persian War). And it probably wasn't the Persian War, because an empty Athens was burned to the ground by Xerxes, its population fled in a bunch of ships; Themistocles was their supreme commander, and he led their navy in a decisive attack on the Persian fleet which broke Xerses's ability to continue a massive campaign in Greece. I can't think of an instance during the war where the Athenians suffered a from massive casualties, although the loss of their city was a sore blow (rebuilt by the time of the Peloponnesian War). So, it had to be Thucydides or Xenophon, probably Thucydides.

Demosthenes and Nicias were two Athenian generals during the Sicilian Campaign who were captured and executed, and nearly all the young, able men of Athens were killed, captured, executed, or enslaved in their attack on Sicily (which contributed to Athen's final defeat in the Peloponnesian War). They were executed after being captured; Thucydides probably would have said something in Demosthenes' defense because he was against the Sicilian Campaign from the very beginning and and had accomplished many fine military feets before the disaster.

But I can't find an exact quote based on the information you have given me.

Click to expand...

Alright... I had also suspected it was Thucydides but couldn't be sure. I'll keep looking for it but thankyou, very interesting part of history.

Red_Dave said:

Wanna narrow it down a bit?

Click to expand...

No. It was purposely vague.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Paris-1919-Months-Changed-World/dp/0375760520/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248323004&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World: Margaret Macmillan, Richard Holbrooke: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Second-World-War/dp/0684829479/ref=pd_sim_b_42]Amazon.com: The Origins of The Second World War: A.J.P. Taylor: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/AMERICAN-DIPLOMACY-1900-1950-GEORGE-KENNAN/dp/B000EWMKC0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248323512&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: AMERICAN DIPLOMACY 1900-1950: GEORGE F. KENNAN: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Great-Powers/dp/0679720197/ref=pd_sim_b_64]Amazon.com: The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: Paul Kennedy: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Long-Fuse-Interpretation-Origins-World/dp/0881339547/ref=pd_sim_b_13]Amazon.com: The Long Fuse: An Interpretation of the Origins of World War I: Laurence Lafore: Books[/ame]

Tubub said:

No. It was purposely vague.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. I would have a look at "Saving Strangers: Humanitarian Intervention in International Society" by Nicholas Wheeler.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Saving-Strangers-Humanitarian-Intervention-International/dp/0199253102]Amazon.com: Saving Strangers: Humanitarian Intervention in International Society (9780199253104): Nicholas J. Wheeler: Books[/ame]

Which is a good mix of theory and historical examples. It looks at various 20th century humantarian interventions (including Indian intervention in Bangladesh, the North Vietnamise removal of pol pot, N.A.T.O intervention in the balklands, and U.N Safe Havens in Kurdistan). In each case it looks at the motivation/theory behind what happend, what worked and what didnt and why. The basic gist behind the whole thing is that even though these interventions may have had ulterior motivations, they can still be used for good as anyone in authority has a need to seek legitimacy.

Ive also a feeling Henry Kissengers "diplomacy" might be your thing. It gives a pretty detailed overview of diplomatic history and the different schools of thought that have arisen from it. Im not a fan of Henry Kissenger as a person so the fact that even I like it probably says alot:lol:. Though if you want a different perspective on international relations ild have a look at anything by Noam Chomsky.

What are you looking for exactly?
Nonfiction or historical fiction?

Try Three Cups of Tea by Greg Mortenson and David Oliver Relin. It a nonfiction humanitarian story about a man who built fifty five schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Aleksandry Fursenko, Timothy Naftali- One Hell Of A Gamble: Khrushchev, Castro, and Kennedy, 1958-1964: The Secret History of the Cuban Missile Crisis

Anne Sumerset-The Affair of the Poisons-Murder, Infanticide, and Satanism at the Court of Louis XIV

I'll link to a few books that have greatly impressed me. Have a look, and see what you think.

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-Bruce-Most-Valiant-Prince/dp/1841584754/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248783144&sr=1-1]Robert Bruce: Our Most Valiant Prince, King and Lord: Amazon.co.uk: Colm McNamee: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-Nazis-Solution-Laurence-Rees/dp/0563522968/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248782560&sr=8-10]Auschwitz : The Nazis & The 'Final Solution': Amazon.co.uk: Laurence Rees: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Wives-Queens-Henry-VIII/dp/0099437244/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248782639&sr=1-1]Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII: Amazon.co.uk: David Starkey: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/William-Wallace-Myth-Graeme-Morton/dp/0750935235/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248782706&sr=1-7]William Wallace: Man and Myth: Amazon.co.uk: Graeme Morton: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wild-Swans-Three-Daughters-China/dp/0007176155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248782858&sr=1-1]Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China: Amazon.co.uk: Jung Chang: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pankhursts-History-One-Radical-Family/dp/0099520435/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248782892&sr=1-9]The Pankhursts: The History of One Radical Family: Amazon.co.uk: Martin Pugh: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotland-New-History-Michael-Lynch/dp/0712698930/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248783016&sr=1-2]Scotland: A New History: Amazon.co.uk: Michael Lynch: Books[/ame]

Battle Ready by Tom Clancy

Into the Storm by Tom Clancy

Jawbreaker by Gary Berntsen

Pistols and Politics by Samuel C. Hyde, Jr.

Not War, But Murder Earnest B. Furgeson

Tubub said:

Any good history or current affairs books that you have personally read?
Just looking for any recommendations in that category...

Click to expand...

I found myself doing a lot more work in primary source documents, actually. So I was looking around and trying to recommend a large number of books I have in my collection, only to discover that most of the remaining works are primary source works for my research areas instead of skipping that part of the job and moving to what historians did for the public. However, I do have stuff by historians, the problem is that a lot of them I admit I have yet to read :mrgreen: I'll give a few more some time later this week for ya, even if I have yet to read them.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Churchills-History-English-Speaking-Peoples/dp/0517060191/ref=pd_ys_iyr441]Amazon.com: Churchill's History of the English Speaking Peoples (9780517060193): Henry Steele Commager: Books[/ame]

Yeah, I read the abridged version. So sue me.

The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers that RightInNYC posted is a fantastic book. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Re: How is about getting $10,000 in cash for reading a history book?

“ The publishers will pay a 10,000 dollars USA in cash to the first person who will not only declare but prove consistently, with adequate methods and in sufficient detail on the same or better academic level that the New Chronology theory of Full member of the Russian Academy of Science Dr Prof Anatoly T. Fomenko, Head of the Chair of the Differential Geometry of MSU and his team is wrong in their dating of Almagest.


Anatoly T. Fomenko is a full member (Academician) of the Russian Academy of Sciences (1994), the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (1991), the International Higher Education Academy of Sciences (1993) and Russian Academy of Technological Sciences (2009), as well as a doctor of physics and mathematics (1972), a professor (1980), and head of the Differential Geometry and Applications Department of the Faculty of Mathematics and Mechanics in Moscow State University (1992). Fomenko is the author of the theory of topological invariants of integrable Hamiltonian system. He is the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, a specialist in geometry and topology, variational calculus, symplectic topology, Hamiltonian geometry and mechanics, and computer geometry. Fomenko is also the author of a number of books on the development of new empirico-statistical methods and their application to the analysis of historical chronicles as well as the chronology of antiquity and the Middle Ages.”
[In Russia the difference between a full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences and a PhD is greater than a difference bewteen a PhD and a high school sophmore in the US – justone]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/History-Astronomical-chronology-Almagest-Chronology/dp/2913621082/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c]Amazon.com: History: Fiction or Science? Astronomical methods as applied to chronology. Ptolemy's Almagest. Chronology III (9782913621084): Dr Anatoly T. Fomenko et al, Franck Tamdhu, Polina Zinoviev: Books[/ame]

Re: How is about getting $10,000 in cash for reading a history book?

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abaraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin is a very good book that I'm reading at the moment. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in the politics of those times.

Morality Games said:

You can never go astray with period writings from classical antiquity, especially those written by the Greeks. Three especially come to mind:

The Histories by Herodotus
History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
The Persian Expedition (or Anabasis) by Xenophon

The Histories provides a fairly representative perspective of what your average Ancient Greek probably thought about the world and life, geographically and morally speaking. Second half of the book encompasses The Persian War, the opening of which was recently filmed in the movie 300. Quite a bit of the dialogue for that movie can be traced directly to this book. It goes on a lot of tangents and is highly speculative. Really not my favorite, but as far as knowing what your layman Ancient Greek thought, it is the most informative.

History of the Peloponnesian War provides a good historical comparison for Cold War + Vietnam and the War in Iraq, as well as a compelling realist account of power relations among states. Definitely the most intellectually rigorous of the works from classical antiquity. Drawback? The writing is verbose and can be dense.

The Persian Expedition is about how a Persian price (Cyrus) attempts to overthrow his brother (the King) with the help of 10,000 Greek mercenaries. Cyrus gets slain during battle and the 10,000 attempt to parley with the Persian king for their safe return home. Things don't work out so well; the 5 Greek commanders are captured (and later executed) during the negotiation. So the army elects new 5 commanders, among them the author (Xenophon) to lead them across many hostile territories to get back to Greece.

Probably the most compelling fact I can note about books from Ancient Greece is that they provide a lot of information on the origin and foundation for modern education and democratic-republican political systems, how these systems interact with fascist/oligarchic/Imperial systems, the partisan tensions and "personality cults" which develop in these systems, and how a military operates in said systems; Xenophon and Thucydides especially make this clear.

I would go for the Persian Expedition. Xenophon is a more accessible writer than Thucydides and doesn't meander as much as Herodotus.

Click to expand...

I have a classics degree. Oligarchic and Imperial systems did exist, but don't bring fascism into the ancient world. That is anachronistic. (I'm not trying to be hostile, just discussing, so please don't take it that way).

Also, the system of Greece is nothing like ours in terms of freedom. The Greeks only aloud certain, wealthy adult males to vote and they had to prove their wealth in order to gain status in the boule. Priesthoods were bought and paid for (yes, they are part of the political system) and one could buy their way into a seat in the boule. (the boule is something like a group of senators except without any checks and balances). Plus, each city governed themselves, so the populations and land mass were far less.

Yes, there is much to gain from an understanding of ancient historians. They do under-gird some of our cultural ideals, but those ideals are more prominent in philosophers and play writes than the historians. You also have to know that the writers of Ancient Greek and Latin Literature were the very rich. They comprised some 5% of the population. That's 5% of the population governing the other 95% at their whim. So, when ancient writers speak of mundane things in a negative light, it is important to temper that with the knowledge that they are writing for the very rich, whom they normally are themselves.

All I'm saying is this: you cannot put an equal sign between our culture and the ancient Greeks. We have two different systems. This goes for the Romans as well, who are by far more parallel to our system during the time of the Republic. But what is closest to Roman culture is more like the Italian mob, who adopted that system of hierarchy in their dealings. If you watch the Godfather, it is very similar to how say Pompey would have conducted business in his own home.

Anyway, just some caution to the equation. These ancient Mediterranean cultures are bound to honor and shame, have different kinship systems, see religion in a different light, etc. There is no enlightenment, no modern dissemination of information, etc. Modern readers often project their own ideals onto the ancients by constructing something more like our culture that theirs.

That said, read them. Great works. I like Herodotus myself, but Xenophon is more accessible as the OP states (especially in Greek, although Herodotus isn't so bad either).

If any of you are truly interested in ancient history and culture of the Mediterranean, I would recommend the following:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Corrupting-Sea-Study-Mediterranean-History/dp/0631218904/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249714695&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The Corrupting Sea: A Study of Mediterranean History (9780631218906): Peregrine Horden, Nicholas Purcell: Books[/ame]

It is huge, thorough and very very good.