Stand With Israel

[Alfons]

The Jews and Palestinians lived generally in peace before Zionism. ..

HaHaHa, thanks for your nice joke!

 

[TheDemSocialist]

LOL,

thanks for quotation of Marx and Lenin. I like very wise, useful and knowledgeable communist expression.

I am not a communist bud. Nice try.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Read the Holy Bible ( KJV )

So you want to create a theocratic state?
So you want to justify the stealing of land, oppression, bulldozing of homes, a apartheid wall, confiscation of property, and checkpoints based on because the "Holy" Bible tells you so.
Thanks for showing how big of an idiot you are.
Separation between church and state.
Learn some history behind the conflict between you babble off your nonsense about how Israel needs their own state just because they are Jews.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

HaHaHa, thanks for your nice joke!

In the area of Palestine the Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in peace, besides the crusades. This is a fact...

 

[liblady]

I support Israel because although I do not agree with every policy they condone, I trust them more than some of the other countries in the region. In addition, Israel is our ally.

what you said.

 

[gekaap]

How so, before it was Israeli it was British, before that Ottoman, then Mamluk, Crusader, Arab, Byzantine, Roman, Persian, and first, Jewish. What claim do the Palestinians have that's more valid than the Israelis?

Palestinians have lived there for the past 1500+ years. The only Jewish claim before Zionist immigration was that of a former Kingdom from about 2500 years ago. And that's what you consider equal?:lamo:lamo:lamo

 

[rocket88]

Read the Holy Bible ( KJV )

Everybody read a version of the Bible endorsed by an English monarch! This version is in accordance with the Word of God (assuming that King James was God of course), and was translated from a translation to the exact political standards of the King!

 

[digsbe]

Palestinians have lived there for the past 1500+ years. The only Jewish claim before Zionist immigration was that of a former Kingdom from about 2500 years ago. And that's what you consider equal?:lamo:lamo:lamo

There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel since the ancient Hebrew kingdom. Regardless, if it's ok for the Arabs to take the Jewish homeland thousands of years ago, why isn't it ok for the Jewish people to take it back? Historically, the Hebrew Kingdom has been the only true nation in the land that is Israel. After the Hebrew kingdom the land of Israel was conquered and made into a province by their conquerers (the Romans, Ottomans, etc.) It was never an independent Arab nation.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel since the ancient Hebrew kingdom. Regardless, if it's ok for the Arabs to take the Jewish homeland thousands of years ago, why isn't it ok for the Jewish people to take it back? Historically, the Hebrew Kingdom has been the only true nation in the land that is Israel. After the Hebrew kingdom the land of Israel was conquered and made into a province by their conquerers (the Romans, Ottomans, etc.) It was never an independent Arab nation.

No one saying people take back a "kingdom" (even tho that was thousands of years ago) and just convert everyone to their religion and their ways which is what you seem to be conveying from your post. Just saying Zionism was this start of this problem. The Jews and Muslims generally lived in peace by one another before the rise of Zionism in Palestine. What the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians is wrong. If you cannot see that well i have no idea what to tell you...
See post #39

 

[gekaap]

There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel since the ancient Hebrew kingdom. Regardless, if it's ok for the Arabs to take the Jewish homeland thousands of years ago, why isn't it ok for the Jewish people to take it back? Historically, the Hebrew Kingdom has been the only true nation in the land that is Israel. After the Hebrew kingdom the land of Israel was conquered and made into a province by their conquerers (the Romans, Ottomans, etc.) It was never an independent Arab nation.

It's very clear that you haven't a clue about the history of the region, so let me fill you in. The earliest people to occupy the region were the Caananites, and the region was known as Caanan. Caanan became a vassal territory to the Egyptian empire. There were several small kingdoms that arose in the region. Many tribal groups moved into the region, some becoming extinct through assimilation with into other tribes. Egyptian control over the region became complicated when the Hitties expanded into nearby areas, and eventually evaporated. There were several kingdoms and city-states that came to occupy portions of what is considered modern day Israel, including the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

It's worth noting at this point that according to Jewish tradition, the Israelites were foreign invaders who moved in against the Caananites. According to Jewish tradition, the Jews were never native to the region. Though the reality is that the Hebrew tribes were probably one of the several Semitic peoples who had migrated through Caanan for a long time.

The Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian empire, and Judah became a vassal state to the Assyrians. Later, Judah would be conquered by the Babylonians, with the vast majority of Jews being expelled. Eventually, the Persian empire would invade, and allowed Jews to return there and return to power as a semi-autonomous vassal state. The Greeks and Syrians would also conquer the region, and smaller Jewish kingdoms would result, having greater or lesser degrees of autonomy and eventually brief independence until the Romans came. The region became a province of the Roman Empire, with the Jewish kingdoms being vassal states, until the Jews attempted to revolt, at which point the Romans destroyed the Jewish kingdoms. That was the end of any form of a Jewish state until the 20th century.

The Roman empire would split, and Palestine became part of the Byzantine empire. The Byzantines would lose control of the area to the Islamic empire, and the area would eventually trade hands frequently between the Crusades and campaigns by the Turks, the Mamluks, and the Mongols fighting over the region. The Mamluks would come out on top, and eventually would become vassal to the Ottomans. Ottoman rule would persist until WWI.

After WWI, the region was administered by the British (but was not part of the British empire). After several years, Israel declared itself a state, and its borders today remain, at best, subject to dispute.

Now, you claim that the Kingdom of Israel is the only "state" to have ever existed over the region. This is an outright falsehood, and at best relies on a very narrow view of what constitutes a "state." Here's a list of some states that have existed over at least part the region of present day Israel:

Assorted Caananite cheifdoms
Kingdom of Israel
Kingdom of Judah
Assorted Philistine city-states
Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Roman Empire
Hasmonean Kingdom (Judea)
Byzantine Empire
Islamic Empire
Kingdom of Jerusalem
Kingdom of Arce
Mamluk Empire
Ottoman Empire

Your argument that it was never an independent Arab nation is without relevance. The Palestinian people have been living in the region for 1500 years. They have, at various times, been part of various sovereign states. There is no need for them to have had their own independent state. The fact still remains that their claim to the region far exceeds any Jewish claim, based on a Kingdom from 2500 years ago. The Crown of Spain, to this very day, claims the title of King of Jerusalem. That state existed much more recently than the Kingdom of Israel. I doubt that you would claim that the Spanish have any meaningful right to take the region away from the people there now.

 

[mbig]

It's very clear that you haven't a clue about the history of the region, so let me fill you in. The earliest people to occupy the region were the Caananites, and the region was known as Caanan.

That's no refutation At All.
He said "SINCE the Hebrew Kingdom" .

[Irrelevant Attempted Trash deleted]
....
After WWI, the region was administered by the British (but was not part of the British empire). After several years, Israel declared Itself a state, and its borders today remain, at best, subject to dispute.

Amazing.. all that Bullcrap and you Conspicuously fail to mention the UN Declared Israel a state (Res 181).. AND a [rejected] Palestine.

(And in 1922, the Brits mostly 'palestinian' Jordan of course.
Any quibble with a Saudi Hashemite getting 77% of the British Mandate? Or just the usual, 'only Israel is The problem'.)

I'd say your post and Omission (Res 181/UN, Arab rejection) is Intentionally misleading and Biased considering the basic knowledge shown in the rest of your long, if irrelevant, recitation.
Most of it proving only 'Palestine' was a game of Musical chairs since the 1300 year Jewish Rule.
You just don't like who ended up sitting down.
Actually the Kurds were the only True people left stateless by the Ottoman break up.

'Israel' only entailed a change of Sovereignty for a small amount of Arabs - 390,000.
vs 550,000 Jews in the land that became Israel.
That's it!
That's what the fight was about.
And of course they'd have had their own Exclusive 'Palestine' if they accepted 181, as well as Arab ruled, palestinian-majority Jordan.

Have a party... mine:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/48220-myth-1-israel-stolen-land.html

Now, you claim that the Kingdom of Israel is the only "state" to have ever existed over the region. This is an outright falsehood, and at best relies on a very narrow view of what constitutes a "state."
Assorted Caananite cheifdoms
[... more BS]

Again you try and 'baffle em with BS' when Digsbe has it right.
The last self-governing state on that land was Israel.

Your argument that it was never an independent Arab nation is without relevance.

No it isn't.
Many, Many, people suffer the misimpression that Israel invaded this sovereign state and overran their parliament building.
ie, this goofy post http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/98072-israel-good-ally-us-4.html#post1059452586

The Palestinian people have been living in the region for 1500 years. They have, at various times, been part of various sovereign states.

A 'people' know they are a people.
This was not the case with the people who blew in and out of Roman named 'palestine'.
Only basically in the last hundred years, 50 in fact was there a 'palestinian people'.
There were No 'palestinians' when other Arabs controlled the land from 1948 to 1967 either.
Arabs never bought that made up crap.
Only Israel winning the 1967 War, unleashed 'palestinians' (aka Annexed Jordanians). That and Nasser's forming the PLO in 1964.

There is no need for them to have had their own independent state.

Thank you.

The fact still remains that their claim to the region far exceeds any Jewish claim,

"their"? who is that?

... The Crown of Spain, to this very day, claims the title of King of Jerusalem. That state existed much more recently than the Kingdom of Israel. I doubt that you would claim that the Spanish have any meaningful right to take the region away from the people there now.

And Arabs/Islamists like Hamas still pine for al andalus.

 

[shintao]

I share this great video and hope that more people will support Israel!
Do not believe the lies of so-called "Palestinians" and their lefty friends in western countries.

Hmm, why do I need to stand with Israel? I stand with America. You want to join me and be an American, OK, you are welcome.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

That's no refutation At All.

Acutally it was. It was a history lesson that people needed to hear..

Amazing.. all that Bullcrap and you Conspicuously fail to mention the UN Declared Israel a state (Res 181).. AND a [rejected] Palestine.

Well no one really wants to get rid of Israel (except a few extremist groups), they just want another state called Palestine, and the Palestinian people want their land back which has been stolen and they want a state based on the 1967 borders...
Very well might happen:
UN Declares ‘Palestine’ Ready For Statehood
UN may declare Palestine its own sovereign state | The Raw Story

 

[spud_meister]

Thousand year old olive orchards, owned by the same family since planting?

The native israelis had been living on that dirt, paying taxes to the various entities you mention, for varying lengths of time.

Then the Jews showed up and decided they needed a place of their own.

Which meant getting rid of most of the existing non-Jewish population.

By oppressive attrition.

Like bulldozing those thousand year old olive groves, or wells, or homes, or businesses.

Leave them with nothing so they'll just have to leave.

Basic Zionist policy. (Political party, not conspiracy)

So when, exactly, did the Jews cease living there? Again, what claim do Palestinians have that Jews don't?

 

[spud_meister]

Palestinians have lived there for the past 1500+ years. The only Jewish claim before Zionist immigration was that of a former Kingdom from about 2500 years ago. And that's what you consider equal?:lamo:lamo:lamo

Are you saying all the Jewish people in the area mysteriously vanished after 1000 years?

 

[gekaap]

So when, exactly, did the Jews cease living there? Again, what claim do Palestinians have that Jews don't?

There have always been Jewish populations in the area, though they have remained small to marginal through most of history. In 1898 Zionism started taking off, but a Jewish majority was not realized until markedly after Israel declared itself a state.

What claim do Palestinians have that Jews don't? First of all, this question, oft asked, is usually loaded, and always overly simplistic. The real question is what claim does one group have to expel inhabitants of another race? That's the issue in all of this. Jewish immigration into Palestine is one thing. But the problem wasn't mere immigration. The problem was that the Jews banded together to attempt to annex the region for their own, while pushing out the Palestinians. Many of them literally claimed the land right out from underneath the Palestinians' feet in the early days of Zionism. Then, as the Jewish population grew they turned to terrorism in their attempts to claim and retain more territory. This started a back-and-fourth of violence that continues to this day. Jewish terrorism continued up to the day that the state of Israel was declared, at which point the terrorists were given uniforms and many of the behaviors were rebranded with different names like "defense." Meanwhile, Israel also continued to do things like tearing down Palestinian homes, leveling entire areas, and building Jewish settlements.

 

[mbig]

I see Geekap could NOT answer in any way my refutation (pg top) of his last piece loaded with Misinformation/bias.
So he has to continue with casual slanders in response to another poster.
Still here buddy! (this isn't USmb)

What claim do Palestinians have that Jews don't? First of all, this question, oft asked, is usually loaded, and always overly simplistic. The real question is what claim does one group have to expel inhabitants of another race? That's the issue in all of this...

Who "expelled people of another race"?
BOTH populations grew strongly in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
The Arab population, in FACT, growing Twice as fast in the areas the Zionists settled in.
Just as they flock for work to Israel since.

"...Many of them literally claimed the land right out from underneath the Palestinians' feet in the early days of Zionism.

Really?

Then, as the Jewish population grew they turned to terrorism in their attempts to claim and retain more territory. This started a back-and-fourth of violence that continues to this day.

How and when did "the Jews start it/terrorism"??
It was the other way round. 17th-19th Terrorism was against native and recently settled Jews. An area tradition.

 

[gekaap]

I see Geekap could NOT answer in any way my refutation (pg top) of his last piece loaded with Misinformation/bias.
So he has to continue with casual slanders in response to another poster.
Still here buddy!

Who "expelled people of another race"?
BOTH populations grew strongly in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
The Arab population, in FACT, growing Twice as fast in the areas the Zionists settled in.
Just as they flock for work to Israel since.


Really?

How and when did "the Jews start it"??

It's sad that you have absolutely no knowledge or education on any of this. All you have is ignorance. You claim misinformation and bias. Okay, I admit it. I'm biased. You want to know my bias? I'll tell you:

I AM A JEW!!

That's right. That's my "bias." In truth, my views of Israel and the US' support for Israel are shaped on facts and logic. I have to admit, when I was a kid, I was pretty much toeing the same line as you and the rest of the non-thinkers. But I have this slight obsession with facts and with eliminating the effects of my own biases in life on my objective perceptions. So I had to do some soul searching, as well as some info gathering. One thing that I was always uncomfortable with, even as a kid, was the constant propensity for Jews to adopt a victimhood complex, and I think it was probably my aversion to that more than anything that allowed me to look at things with a level head and settle on reasonable grounds with objective stances on the issues.

 

[mbig]

It's sad that you have absolutely no knowledge or education on any of this. All you have is ignorance. You claim misinformation and bias. Okay, I admit it. I'm biased. You want to know my bias? I'll tell you:

I AM A JEW!!

Oh well! then every Unbacked Goofy Slander you put up is true!
Norman Finkelstein is a Jew, Noam Chomsky a Jew, Amira Hass a Jew, and too many others to name.

That's right. That's my "bias." In truth, my views of Israel and the US' support for Israel are shaped on facts and logic. I have to admit, when I was a kid, I was pretty much toeing the same line as you and the rest of the non-thinkers. But I have this slight obsession with facts and with eliminating the effects of my own biases in life on my objective perceptions. So I had to do some soul searching, as well as some info gathering. One thing that I was always uncomfortable with, even as a kid, was the constant propensity for Jews to adopt a victimhood complex, and I think it was probably my aversion to that more than anything that allowed me to look at things with a level head and settle on reasonable grounds with objective stances on the issues.

I debate facts, not your maturity issues.
You're now 0-fer-2 in debating Facts. BIG 0.
This is DebatePolitics.
You post nothing but casual/Unbacked slander and lies I have refuted.
I don't care if you're a Jew or a Sikh or still a kid.

 

[Radical Ron]

Firstly Conservatives are not "far right".
Secondly only leftists are anti-Semitic.

Only leftists are anti-semitic? Really? I know a lot of Jewish leftists.

But I do agree that Conservatives are not "far right"

 

[gekaap]

You're now 0-fer-2 in debating Facts.

I'm the only one here presenting facts. All you're doing is presenting emtional "OMGILOVEISRAEL" arguments. You have yet to present a single fact about anything.

You post nothing but casual/unbacked slander.....I don't care if you're a Jew or a Sikh or still a kid.

Er...what? :lamo

 

[mbig]

I'm the only one here presenting facts. All you're doing is presenting emtional "OMGILOVEISRAEL" arguments. You have yet to present a single fact about anything.

You presented nothing But anti-Israel BS.
You could Not answer my post at the top of the last page exposing your anti-Israel slander.
NOT a word. (couldn't you even defend One thing?)
Conspicuously NOT a word could you say to that destruction of your long/wrong screed with undeniable history.
using instead a 'reply' to someone else to even continue and not have to deal with me/facts.
Nor post 68 where I refute your "expulsion" lie in that second post, and challenge you to back your other claims.
You AGAIN could NOT say a Single word!
Instead Geekap RETREATING to "I'm a Jew!" As If that makes any of your Lies true.
(So is Finkelstein, Chomsky, Hass, Israel Shamir, Benjamin Freedman, etc)

Geekap cannot stay on topic Nor debate/rebut/back a Single point. Not one.
His fallacious 'proof' of any of it? "I'm a Jew".
this is DebatePolitics, not USmb/Tinmore/Tinhorn.

 

[Gardener]

I AM A JEW!!

.

I never realized being a Jew was so easy. Just say you are one on the internet while claiming it was Jews who started the terrorism.


Seems I recal a fellow by the name of Mohammad Amin al Husseini in there somewhere, but who am I to say since I'm not the one making unverifiable claims to try to earn cred.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

You presented nothing But anti-Israel BS.
You could Not answer my post at the top of the last page exposing your anti-Israel slander.
NOT a word. (couldn't you even defend One thing?)
Conspicuously NOT a word could you say to that destruction of your long/wrong screed with undeniable history.
using instead a 'reply' to someone else to even continue and not have to deal with me/facts.
Nor post 68 where I refute your "expulsion" lie in that second post, and challenge you to back your other claims.
You AGAIN could NOT say a Single word!
Instead Geekap RETREATING to "I'm a Jew!" As If that makes any of your Lies true.
(So is Finkelstein, Chomsky, Hass, Israel Shamir, Benjamin Freedman, etc)

Geekap cannot stay on topic Nor debate/rebut/back a Single point. Not one.
His fallacious 'proof' of any of it? "I'm a Jew".
this is DebatePolitics, not USmb/Tinmore/Tinhorn.

mbig,
gekaap has presented plenty of evidence. Just because it is the evidence that you want to hear does not make it false in any such way or form. Just because you say it is no evidence does not make it false.
gekaap's post which is #60 jack full of evidence and facts...

And im clad mbig that you are the official score keeper of DebatePolitics.com.

What is wrong with Noam Chomsky, and Finkelstein is it because they show a different side of the coin that just automatically makes it false?

Whole point of this is just because you dont like the point of view or information brought to you does not make it false....

 

[gekaap]

I never realized being a Jew was so easy. Just say you are one on the internet while claiming it was Jews who started the terrorism.

What would be the point in claiming that I'm Jewish, if it were not true? I mean, I guess some people are gluttons for punishment and might have some kind of odd obsession with being the butt of penny jokes, but that's about all I can come up with.

Seems I recal a fellow by the name of Mohammad Amin al Husseini in there somewhere, but who am I to say since I'm not the one making unverifiable claims to try to earn cred.

That's the spirit. Through out a name, and completely forget everything else amidst the back and fourth two way violence. The fact of the matter is this: Jews immigrated (at times illegally) into the region, and had little problem with displacing the population or with committing violence against the people and against the administrative government of the time, whenever they were not getting their way. All the meanwhile, they played a victim card about anything that they got in return, any policy that was established that interfered with their invasion plans, anything that did not essentially give them a hand out. Very few people are ever willing to talk about this subject honestly, and it's clear you are one of them. Everyone wants to cast the subject into a question of a singular side being to blame, a singular side being the incarnation of evil, a singular side being a hapless victim.

There's alot of blame and fault to go around on all sides. The British were wrong, the Palestinians were wrong, the Jews were wrong. **** happened, plenty of things went down in ways they probably shouldn't have. Repeating worn out and tired arguments, like claiming that the Jews had some special right to move in and establish their own state, are no better than the arguments on the other side that claim that Israel should be wiped off the map.