Spanking: Is it still an effective method of discipline?

[JoeyJoystick]

But if it assists in getting the point across, and saving the child's life, it is impossible to speak against it.

Hi bythoughts,

Nope it does not work like that. The discussion is not whether a spanking can or can not be effective. The question is whether there are approaches that achieve better results. And the answer to that is yes. And therefore the argument that spanking is beneficial is quickly evaporating.

It's like opening a new bank account. Bank 'A' offers you 5% interest and bank 'B' offers you 10% interest. At the end of the year you win with both of them. But with one of them you win more then the other one. With spanking you are winning, but you're winning less than you could compared to other methods.


Joey

 

[JoeyJoystick]

4 and 2 year olds really shouldn’t be left unsupervised to start with

Hi BirdInHand,

Several years back I was traveling from work and I received a video from my wife about my son. Her and the maid had watch my son climb up the ladder of the high sleeper bed. The thing was, he couldn't walk yet. But he climbed up 4 steps on a vertical lather. Quite impressive performance for a boy only 9 old. lol. I was mad that they let this happen. I was not there, so I decided to watch the video a few more times. And I still have this video. What he did was good. He ALWAYS had 3 point contact when climbing up and down. He took his time. He knew what he was doping. Without knowing the risks of course... So in a way I was happy, because I could see that he was cautious, but I also told my wife that this could never happen again. She asked me if it was ok to post the video. I said; Better not, in my country they would report us to child care for this. lol. I explained to her. And I explained to her how to deal with this differently next time.

And that is the core issue here; education. And that goes a looooong way. Here they still get spanked by the teachers. And they get angry at me when I say that they can not hit my kid. Because that is the way they have to teach them they claim. But this does not just apply to kids. Just use your imagination how the police treats you when caught. Incest is an other one here. Especially in the rural parts of the country, they have different rules. Certainly not our standards. Do I always agree? Most certainly not. But... They need to be taught. And that takes time.

I use this as an example because the cultural differences are much clearer now and many people will have some lever of understanding of this. Not agree, but understand that this is not easily fixed. But don't you think, we can extend that a little to our culture as well? With more education there would be less issues with violence and kids.

Joey

 

[Atreus21]

I’m going to take a wild guess here that you don’t have children and/or don’t understand developmental stages with children.

Four year olds aren’t really capable of

I have four children, and I wonder if you've met many children if you dont think they're capable of that.

Doing dumb things?

Yep. They do that quite a bit. Their brains aren’t fully able to comprehend actions and consequences of actions at that age.

Calculated cruelty at 4?

Okay, how about 8?

That is a real stretch developmentally and if a 4 year old was exhibiting signs of “calculated cruelty” then a parent has the responsibility to not leave them in a situation where they CAN harm another child and also to bring in professionals - because you are very likely dealing with some sort of sociopathy, etc.

Straightforwardly not so. Kids being cruel or bullying is not evidence of underlying mental illness.

The scenario you described is really going to be a very very unlikely one - and it isn’t going to be resolved by spanking.

If a 4 year old is demonstrating calculated cruelty - they need significant intervention by trained professionals. They don’t need to be spanked.

Yeah, we disagree there. But let's not get hung up on age. Let's suppose the perpetrstor is 8, and the victim 6.

And the parent may or may not need to consider removing the 4 year old or the two year old from the household and/or never leaving them unsupervised alone together because of the risks.

In all honestly - 4 and 2 year olds really shouldn’t be left unsupervised to start with - especially not by steps. And you really should have child proof gates around steps with 2 year olds around to start with

If the answer to they hypothetical is to take the older kid to counseling, I submit they have gotten away with it, and the younger kid will feel the same.

 

[BirdinHand]

I have four children, and I wonder if you've met many children if you dont think they're capable of that.



Okay, how about 8?



Straightforwardly not so. Kids being cruel or bullying is not evidence of underlying mental illness.



Yeah, we disagree there. But let's not get hung up on age. Let's suppose the perpetrstor is 8, and the victim 6.



If the answer to they hypothetical is to take the older kid to counseling, I submit they have gotten away with it, and the younger kid will feel the same.

4 is not 6 and not 8.

Developmentally, those ages are very different.

I still don’t believe in nor do I employ spanking.

Never have, never will.

I’ve found talking and explaining rules, expectations, consequences, etc. to be much more effective. Breaking rules comes with consequences. Just like it does as an adult.

I’ve never needed to hit my child to teach them that lesson.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

I can't think of any non-violent one

THERE is the issue, in my humble opinion. Not being able to think of alternative solutions. By YOUR scenario you have an elderly person living with you and he pushes a 2 year old down the stairs, and because he has dementia, he too delights in the cruelty he has inflicted (look up how some people with dementia behave) or you have living with you an older child with severe mental disabilities such as ADHD, and he pushes a 2 yr old down a set of stairs. Would YOU honestly say you are prepared to spank the older child OR the elderly person with dementia?
If your answer is: BUT that is different, I would ask HOW is it different? And why you would use force on a 4 yr old but not on an elderly person or a child with something like ADHD or autism??

 

[Atreus21]

THERE is the issue, in my humble opinion. Not being able to think of alternative solutions. By YOUR scenario you have an elderly person living with you and he pushes a 2 year old down the stairs, and because he has dementia, he too delights in the cruelty he has inflicted (look up how some people with dementia behave) or you have living with you an older child with severe mental disabilities such as ADHD, and he pushes a 2 yr old down a set of stairs. Would YOU honestly say you are prepared to spank the older child OR the elderly person with dementia?
If your answer is: BUT that is different, I would ask HOW is it different? And why you would use force on a 4 yr old but not on an elderly person or a child with something like ADHD or autism??

You can think of hypotheticals where physical punishment is the wrong consequence. I can think of hypotheticals where physical punishment is warranted.

To claim that there is no hypothetical where physical punishment is warranted is ridiculous to me.

 

[RF667799]

Heya Joey. Hopefully you read everything i had to say in this thread, it would address this response, but I'll give it to you in a nutshell.

I benefited from spankings because that was the kind of kid I was. You guys act like a kid running into the street could only happen to bad parents. Let me tell you, there was a whole world of chaos i could create out of calm and a couple seconds.

I did not feel unloved, I did not grow up to eat kittens, I'm close with both my parents, and I never in my life doubted that mother (she was the one who dispensed the discipline) had my back.

My son, on the other hand, has never needed physical reinforcement, so hasn't received it. This is not me defending my actions, but rather my experience.

The narrative that you're giving me is incomplete, because it attempts to suggest that only one way works, and the other leads to inevitable doom. As a result it's as incorrect as saying all kids must be spanked in order to turn out OK. I can easily concede that you're right in some cases, perhaps even the majority, but my own lived experience, as the so called "victim", debunks it as an absolute truth for all cases.

I'm not mad at you for sticking up for kids, that's noble. But perhaps make some room for the fact that not all stories, or kids, are the same.

This is kind of what I was getting at in the previous post of mine where you asked me what I meant. The extremes try to leave no room in the middle. One extreme tries to characterize any corporal punishment or physical correction as the equivalent of clipping someone upside the head with a 2x4. The other unhelpful extreme argues for swattings at the drop of a hat.

I've found it necessary to swat my grandson a couple of times. One stands out as representative. Shopping for an aquarium, he decided that crashing a shopping cart into a six foot high stack of new aquariums would be an interesting experiment in physics. So with all the intensity, focus, enthusiasm and fervor that his little 5 year old neurodivergent mind could muster (and that's a considerable lot) he set about trying to make that immediately happen. I would have liked to see someone try to reason him out of that. Snatching him up and just leaving the store with him would have required physical restraint and a running battle all the way to the exit in itself, and quite likely could have been seen by him as a reward for his behavior. Not only that...it isn't reasonable that a five year old can ruin an outing for his sister and myself out of sheer orneriness, either. Sorry...but that's nothing to teach a child. What was left after I tried "No!", was a quick, moderately firm swat on the butt along with another "No!". Right in front of God and everyone. The effect was that his mind immediately re-focused on this novel event and allowed him time to reflect on what he had been doing. He was a different child. We finished picking out an aquarium, he got to pick out a decoration for it, and he helped carry everything out to the truck. I love him dearly, but he is not going to bully his way to being in charge. Learning he can do that will not serve him well in adulthood...or even in later childhood.

 

[OlNate]

This is kind of what I was getting at in the previous post of mine where you asked me what I meant. The extremes try to leave no room in the middle. One extreme tries to characterize any corporal punishment or physical correction as the equivalent of clipping someone upside the head with a 2x4. The other unhelpful extreme argues for swattings at the drop of a hat.

I've found it necessary to swat my grandson a couple of times. One stands out as representative. Shopping for an aquarium, he decided that crashing a shopping cart into a six foot high stack of new aquariums would be an interesting experiment in physics. So with all the intensity, focus, enthusiasm and fervor that his little 5 year old neurodivergent mind could muster (and that's a considerable lot) he set about trying to make that immediately happen. I would have liked to see someone try to reason him out of that. Snatching him up and just leaving the store with him would have required physical restraint and a running battle all the way to the exit in itself, and quite likely could have been seen by him as a reward for his behavior. Not only that...it isn't reasonable that a five year old can ruin an outing for his sister and myself out of sheer orneriness, either. Sorry...but that's nothing to teach a child. What was left after I tried "No!", was a quick, moderately firm swat on the butt along with another "No!". Right in front of God and everyone. The effect was that his mind immediately re-focused on this novel event and allowed him time to reflect on what he had been doing. He was a different child. We finished picking out an aquarium, he got to pick out a decoration for it, and he helped carry everything out to the truck. I love him dearly, but he is not going to bully his way to being in charge. Learning he can do that will not serve him well in adulthood...or even in later childhood.

Yeah, I mean, I mostly agree with the way you handled it. My word of caution is don't frame his behavior as "bullying his way to being in charge"... I can almost 100% guarantee, without having been there or knowing the kid, that it wasn't that. Viewing it that way might lead to you being less patient than is appropriate for the situation, through a misunderstanding.

But that's the only note I'd counter with. Normally I would suggest a discussion after the dust settles, but it's tougher to do between a neurotypical authority figure and a neurodivergent kid because the neurotypical one most likely doesn't understand what's driving the situation, and is liable to take the talk in the wrong direction, leading to more negative feelings. You showed your grandson you loved him, I know from past discussions that you do, you let it be ok afterwards. If this approach works for your grandson then it's the correct approach. Sounds like he is like I was at that age. It's almost for sure just over exhuberance more than "bullying", but it still needed, obviously, to be addressed.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

You can think of hypotheticals where physical punishment is the wrong consequence. I can think of hypotheticals where physical punishment is warranted.

To claim that there is no hypothetical where physical punishment is warranted is ridiculous to me.

So you could NOT answer my "hypotheticals" and then what happens when a hypothetical becomes reality?
SO ANSWER THE QUESTION: would YOU physically punish an elderly person with dementia or an old child is ADHD? I mean, seriously, it's a straight up yes or no question. Would YOU?

 

[Atreus21]

So you could NOT answer my "hypotheticals" and then what happens when a hypothetical becomes reality?
SO ANSWER THE QUESTION: would YOU physically punish an elderly person with dementia or an old child is ADHD? I mean, seriously, it's a straight up yes or no question. Would YOU?

An elderly person, no. An older child with ADHD? Possibly, yes.

Would you physically punish a normal 8 year old boy who deliberately pushes his 5 year old brother down the stairs and then laughs at him as the 5 year old lays crying?

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

An older child with ADHD? Possibly, yes.

THAT speaks volumes, it really does.

Would you physically punish a normal 8 year old boy who deliberately pushes his 5 year old brother down the stairs and then laughs at him as the 5 year old lays crying?

NO, I would not. There are other ways of dealing with such a situation. However, one would need to be willing to explore the other methods. Some people can't be bothered, if you get my drift.

 

[Atreus21]

THAT speaks volumes, it really does.

NO, I would not. There are other ways of dealing with such a situation. However, one would need to be willing to explore the other methods. Some people can't be bothered, if you get my drift.

Well we disagree. I don't think any non-violent punishment rises to meet a vicious action like that, or appears to the victim that people who attack him like that will be appropriately punished.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Well we disagree. I don't think any non-violent punishment rises to meet a vicious action like that, or appears to the victim that people who attack him like that will be appropriately punished.

So you prefer to create TWO victimized children. Ok, duly noted.

 

[Atreus21]

So you prefer to create TWO victimized children. Ok, duly noted.

No, I don't victimize children. You ought to grow up a bit.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

You ought to grow up a bit.

 

[Mika-El]

An elderly person, no. An older child with ADHD? Possibly, yes.

Would you physically punish a normal 8 year old boy who deliberately pushes his 5 year old brother down the stairs and then laughs at him as the 5 year old lays crying?

"Punish" and "punishment", those words I focus on. Do you want to punish or do you really want to make sure your child learns what he did was wrong and why and what consequences might happen if he does it again.

We all agree you have to do something that will teach your 8 year old that what he did:

1-was dangerous;
2-can not happen again;
3-and that laughing at someone you hurt is wrong.

In regards to l- you can not get that lesson across simply slapping a child's bum-you must find a way to explain it as best you can depending on the level of your child's speaking-at 8 they can understand the basics of danger;


In regards to 2, same as 1 but you have to explain why it can not happen again and you do that by linking it to the injury the bevahiour caused or could cause;

In regards to 3, its twofold in components: i- is a private meeting to deal with the entire matter-your child will not learn if they feel humiliated in front of others; ii-you have to teach empathy by asking your 8 year old how he would feel if someone did the same thing to them-you have to ask them and let them answer to have that sink in-they need to connect a bad feeling to themselves as to what they did-then you need as part of the closure of that lesson to have them apologize to the brother and hug them-when you do the time out depends-if the action was done in the heat of a fight-do the cool off alone first-if it was joking around horseplay-you might want to do the time out at the very end after the apology and it may not even be necessary if it was not intentional-however since you said it was deliberate-I would do the word lessons first, followed by the cool off-the key is the tone of your voice not the loudness-the louder it is the less likely the boy will hear you-the calmer and clearer and lower your voice the better it is-be intense and focused, not shrill and angry or your child can not learn a positive lesson from it.

Now all of the above is easy for me to say. I am not the parent in the heat of the moment. I have hindsight. I am emotionally dettached. I do not have other stuff going on.

I get its not easy but my point is a slap on the bumb would not do a damn thing to turn the behaviour into a learning moment.

SO back to the word "punishment" I think you would really prefer to turn a negative act into a learning moment so that the person does not do it again and to do that you mix your responses to teach both thinking and reasoning skills, empathy (how others feel) as the most important part of the response with "punishment" or a negative consequence such as a time out as the follow up to making sure the lesson sinks in.

Keep in mind "punishment" is negative reinforcement and you know it does not work well without other kinds of enforcement techniques to deter anything and it does not teach. By itself it will cause unitended consequences such as trauma or anxiety or fear that will then get triggered in the future everytime a similiar event happens with someone else.

8 years old in my opinion means the child can learn from words and negative consequences linked to the wrong doing as soon as it happens. The longer you take to teach the lesson, the less likely it will work.

We think physical punishment works-but all it does is negatively reinfoce a reaction with pain. Pain is not something that teaches-in fact it prevents the person from learning-they don't learn they simply learn to fear pain and feel humiliated. Not an effective tool for anything but an immediate temporary cessation of a certain behaviour.

Look I get it. Your child bites another child, you yell no and maybe slap their hand.

However once a child is able to fully express themselves with words, its time to use those words as a tool reinforced by a time out or some kind of consequence limiting what they find enjoyable or fun to teach a lesson. That method teaches there is give and take. Simply hitting does not.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

"Punish" and "punishment", those words I focus on. Do you want to punish or do you really want to make sure your child learns what he did was wrong and why and what consequences might happen if he does it again.

We all agree you have to do something that will teach your 8 year old that what he did:

1-was dangerous;
2-can not happen again;
3-and that laughing at someone you hurt is wrong.

In regards to l- you can not get that lesson across simply slapping a child's bum-you must find a way to explain it as best you can depending on the level of your child's speaking-at 8 they can understand the basics of danger;


In regards to 2, same as 1 but you have to explain why it can not happen again and you do that by linking it to the injury the bevahiour caused or could cause;

In regards to 3, its twofold in components: i- is a private meeting to deal with the entire matter-your child will not learn if they feel humiliated in front of others; ii-you have to teach empathy by asking your 8 year old how he would feel if someone did the same thing to them-you have to ask them and let them answer to have that sink in-they need to connect a bad feeling to themselves as to what they did-then you need as part of the closure of that lesson to have them apologize to the brother and hug them-when you do the time out depends-if the action was done in the heat of a fight-do the cool off alone first-if it was joking around horseplay-you might want to do the time out at the very end after the apology and it may not even be necessary if it was not intentional-however since you said it was deliberate-I would do the word lessons first, followed by the cool off-the key is the tone of your voice not the loudness-the louder it is the less likely the boy will hear you-the calmer and clearer and lower your voice the better it is-be intense and focused, not shrill and angry or your child can not learn a positive lesson from it.

Now all of the above is easy for me to say. I am not the parent in the heat of the moment. I have hindsight. I am emotionally dettached. I do not have other stuff going on.

I get its not easy but my point is a slap on the bumb would not do a damn thing to turn the behaviour into a learning moment.

SO back to the word "punishment" I think you would really prefer to turn a negative act into a learning moment so that the person does not do it again and to do that you mix your responses to teach both thinking and reasoning skills, empathy (how others feel) as the most important part of the response with "punishment" or a negative consequence such as a time out as the follow up to making sure the lesson sinks in.

Keep in mind "punishment" is negative reinforcement and you know it does not work well without other kinds of enforcement techniques to deter anything and it does not teach. By itself it will cause unitended consequences such as trauma or anxiety or fear that will then get triggered in the future everytime a similiar event happens with someone else.

8 years old in my opinion means the child can learn from words and negative consequences linked to the wrong doing as soon as it happens. The longer you take to teach the lesson, the less likely it will work.

We think physical punishment works-but all it does is negatively reinfoce a reaction with pain. Pain is not something that teaches-in fact it prevents the person from learning-they don't learn they simply learn to fear pain and feel humiliated. Not an effective tool for anything but an immediate temporary cessation of a certain behaviour.

Look I get it. Your child bites another child, you yell no and maybe slap their hand.

However once a child is able to fully express themselves with words, its time to use those words as a tool reinforced by a time out or some kind of consequence limiting what they find enjoyable or fun to teach a lesson. That method teaches there is give and take. Simply hitting does not.

Hope that makes sense.

ALL those methods are too complicated. Easier just to spank the kid.

 

[Atreus21]

"Punish" and "punishment", those words I focus on. Do you want to punish or do you really want to make sure your child learns what he did was wrong and why and what consequences might happen if he does it again.

We all agree you have to do something that will teach your 8 year old that what he did:

1-was dangerous;
2-can not happen again;
3-and that laughing at someone you hurt is wrong.

That is not all. We must also meaningfully demonstrate to his little brother that his parents will not tolerate his being treated that way.

In regards to l- you can not get that lesson across simply slapping a child's bum-you must find a way to explain it as best you can depending on the level of your child's speaking-at 8 they can understand the basics of danger; In regards to 2, same as 1 but you have to explain why it can not happen again and you do that by linking it to the injury the behaviour caused or could cause;

I think slapping the child's butt delivers two messages, quickly, near-term to the offense, and hopefully while the victim can witness:

1. To the aggressor: You deliberately inflicting pain will cause pain to be inflicted on you (tacitly teaching the golden rule).
2. To the victim: If others treat you this way, you can rely on me to justly punish them.

Certainly, it should be explained to the aggressor how dangerous it was. But if all they get is a stern talking-to and rescindment of various privileges while the victim suffered physical pain and humiliation? I think the aggressor didn't get what they deserved in that case.

In regards to 3, its twofold in components: i- is a private meeting to deal with the entire matter-your child will not learn if they feel humiliated in front of others;

Which I generally don't advocate.

ii-you have to teach empathy by asking your 8 year old how he would feel if someone did the same thing to them-you have to ask them and let them answer to have that sink in-they need to connect a bad feeling to themselves as to what they did-then you need as part of the closure of that lesson to have them apologize to the brother and hug them-when you do the time out depends-if the action was done in the heat of a fight-do the cool off alone first-if it was joking around horseplay-you might want to do the time out at the very end after the apology and it may not even be necessary if it was not intentional-however since you said it was deliberate-I would do the word lessons first, followed by the cool off-the key is the tone of your voice not the loudness-the louder it is the less likely the boy will hear you-the calmer and clearer and lower your voice the better it is-be intense and focused, not shrill and angry or your child can not learn a positive lesson from it.

I agree with most of this. Certainly it needs to be done. But I don't agree that it means all physical punishment is unjust or abusive or uncalled for.

Now all of the above is easy for me to say. I am not the parent in the heat of the moment. I have hindsight. I am emotionally dettached. I do not have other stuff going on.

I get its not easy but my point is a slap on the bumb would not do a damn thing to turn the behaviour into a learning moment.

And that's where we disagree. I think it communicates very concisely and unambiguously the gravity of the cruel act. The danger lies in going too far and going into abusive territory.

Those who insist that there's no distinction between physical punishment of children and child abuse are, in my opinion, being ridiculous.

8 years old in my opinion means the child can learn from words and negative consequences linked to the wrong doing as soon as it happens. The longer you take to teach the lesson, the less likely it will work.

We think physical punishment works-but all it does is negatively reinfoce a reaction with pain. Pain is not something that teaches-in fact it prevents the person from learning-they don't learn they simply learn to fear pain and feel humiliated. Not an effective tool for anything but an immediate temporary cessation of a certain behaviour.

I wonder if you'd be willing to listen to what informs my opinion not just on appropriate punishment for badly misbehaving children, but the general principle of how criminals ought to be treated, and then perhaps tell me what you think.



Or if you prefer just to read it:

https://www.churchsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Cman_073_2_Lewis.pdf

 

[Mika-El]

That is not all. We must also meaningfully demonstrate to his little brother that his parents will not tolerate his being treated that way.




I think slapping the child's butt delivers two messages, quickly, near-term to the offense, and hopefully while the victim can witness:

1. To the aggressor: You deliberately inflicting pain will cause pain to be inflicted on you (tacitly teaching the golden rule).
2. To the victim: If others treat you this way, you can rely on me to justly punish them.

Certainly, it should be explained to the aggressor how dangerous it was. But if all they get is a stern talking-to and rescindment of various privileges while the victim suffered physical pain and humiliation? I think the aggressor didn't get what they deserved in that case.



Which I generally don't advocate.



I agree with most of this. Certainly it needs to be done. But I don't agree that it means all physical punishment is unjust or abusive or uncalled for.



And that's where we disagree. I think it communicates very concisely and unambiguously the gravity of the cruel act. The danger lies in going too far and going into abusive territory.

Those who insist that there's no distinction between physical punishment of children and child abuse are, in my opinion, being ridiculous.



I wonder if you'd be willing to listen to what informs my opinion not just on appropriate punishment for badly misbehaving children, but the general principle of how criminals ought to be treated, and then perhaps tell me what you think.



Or if you prefer just to read it:

https://www.churchsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Cman_073_2_Lewis.pdf

Yes I am familiar with the article and yes I appreciate your well thought out response and do NOT think you adviocate violent punishment and I do not necessarily disagree with you. I do not think all spankings are not justified or may not work. I think quick non violent ones might work for specific situations but I am speaking as a general rule.I also do not think you mean to use them as a replacement for other methods or in any way to justify violence or out of control taps. Your opinions are not my issue. Abusive parents who do not understand limits of force are.

I actually think you do a fine job expressing your opinion without the need for a cite but by doing so I appreciate you referrig to the cite. It does help explain what your position is in clear terms.


You know I have a bias from having seen so many abused children I of course advocate to err on the side of caution when using any physical demonstration. That is a clear bias I do not hide. Your opinion is fairlt typiucal of many parents who do not agree with abuse or violence but do argue some degree of physical force MAY be necessary.

Thanks. Debating people who are well expressed is something I appreciate.

 

[bomberfox]

If we arent allowed to hit adults for disobeying, why is it ok to hit a kid?