Spanking: Is it still an effective method of discipline?

OlNate said:

I did, and those weren't my takeaways.

I think generalization is dangerous when it comes to something as individual as parenting.

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I think your second sentence is really important. A lot of the anecdotes in this thread appear to convey the idea that the discipline/control/training part of parenting is all there.

BirdinHand said:

My son is 9 and has been in wineries, bars, fancy restaurants, airplanes, trains, etc. He’s seen a LOT more of the world and experienced a lot more than I had at his age.

The “leash” days were from the time when he was a toddler and walking/running until he was about preK aged.

Where many people had their kids in strollers/wagons, etc as a toddler? We had a nifty little insulated backpack with a leash attached to it that clipped at his chest. He couldn’t wander off and get hurt - and he learned that Mom wasn’t a pack mule to carry his stuff around either

Zoo, aquariums, festivals, boardwalks, etc - the kiddo and I went to all of them real simply with me wearing a backpack and him wearing his backpack and go see and do whatever.

He learned by walking right next to me and us constantly talking - even when he would just be babbling along because he didn’t have verbal expression at that point - or was using his communication device.

Wagons/strollers, etc couldn’t work for us because my son didn’t have expressive language. We relied on the ability to have constant eye contact/use sign language, use facial expressions and body language. He understood ME - and I understood him.

Every parent has to find what works for them.


But I’ll never understand spanking and hitting a kid. I just don’t get it.

There are literally countless other ways to parent and discipline. If you wouldn’t accept being hit by your partner or your boss, why is it acceptable to hit your kid? Under any circumstances?

What does it really TEACH them?

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Funny thing, is that I used to privately snicker (my wife did, too) when we would see kids on leashes out in public. When we would later talk about it, we concluded that was just something we would never do with our own child.

Then, my daughter wandered away from my wife in a Gymboree store at the mall. The place was stuffed with racks of clothes and such, so you couldn’t see the little tot through everything. My wife went into a panic and the manager of the store lowered the gates to lockdown the store until she was hopefully found. She was scared to death that she had been abducted. She still says it was the worst scare she ever had. My daughter was innocently found back in a corner looking at hair sets and party shoes.

We changed our tune about those kid leashes, and we understood why some parents used them. Like anything else in this life, it was no longer a joke when it happens to you.

tharock220 said:

I think your second sentence is really important. A lot of the anecdotes in this thread appear to convey the idea that the discipline/control/training part of parenting is all there.

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I think the anecdotes are of value, though. As I said in post #30, a lot of this will be heavily influenced by everyone's lived experience. I was spanked by a loving mother who never did it out of anger, explained it to me, gave me hugs, etc., and it only happened after I failed to listen to her trying to tell me to do or not to do something (I think the magic number was 3, if I recall). Interestingly, my father never hit me, as his dad used to beat the shit out of him as a kid.

Other people, who have had different experiences, would come to a different conclusion, especially if they were abused or are close to someone who was abused.

I think this is a discussion where everyone needs to make room for everyone else, in terms of the perception they bring to the table driven by their individual story. Most decent people would agree that the goal is not to harm the child. Even those that advocate for the most aggressive forms of physical reinforcement are most likely thinking exactly as the rest of us are: that they are doing it in the best interests of the child.

Does that ever go wrong? hehe... I mean, I can sure attest that it can, albeit from a different angle that would belong in a different thread. But this discussion doesn't really help address that, as with most discussions around parenting, people are far less likley to be objective and open minded.

Parenting is a terrifying task if done correctly, you spend every single day hoping and praying you aren't ****ing your kid up, while knowing the reality is that you're likely going to be on the hook for at least a part of their therapy bill...hehe... A lot of people counter that with being fiercely defensive of their chosen parenting style, no matter what issue is being explored. I think for this discussion to be useful, we all have to acknowledge that broad brushing doesn't work, and that we are all likely at least a little bit wrong.

daeler said:

I think the problem you see today is the lack of consequences.

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THAT is the problem. Parents too busy or lack of interest in their kids. Not spanking doesn't mean no consequences. I used consequences and my kids understood what they would be, but none of them involved physical punishment.

Grogu said:

Funny thing, is that I used to privately snicker (my wife did, too) when we would see kids on leashes out in public. When we would later talk about it, we concluded that was just something we would never do with our own child.

Then, my daughter wandered away from my wife in a Gymboree store at the mall. The place was stuffed with racks of clothes and such, so you couldn’t see the little tot through everything. My wife went into a panic and the manager of the store lowered the gates to lockdown the store until she was hopefully found. She was scared to death that she had been abducted. She still says it was the worst scare she ever had. My daughter was innocently found back in a corner looking at hair sets and party shoes.

We changed our tune about those kid leashes, and we understood why some parents used them. Like anything else in this life, it was no longer a joke when it happens to you.

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We lived in northern Ontario. The attitude around "leashes" (good grief, I still hate that term) was about what you'd expect. Most people there would never gain the insight you did, because they'd likely never be in that situation. This is another example where lived experience is going to drive one's attitude and approach to all of this.

(This is me agreeing with you, in case that wasn't clear...hehe)

Dans La Lune said:

If you're a caveman, clobbering your offspring is a viable tool to discipline your child. If you're living in a First World society, with all the tools you have available, and you have to hit your kid to discipline them, you're probably not equipped to be a parent. That's my opinion.

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I hope you meant "you" in a general sense and not me personally.

SNOWFLAKE said:

THAT is the problem. Parents too busy or lack of interest in their kids. Not spanking doesn't mean no consequences. I used consequences and my kids understood what they would be, but none of them involved physical punishment.

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I am not saying there are not other options, I am just saying spanking, If used properly, is a valid punishment.

pinqy said:

Good point. I think that's part of certainty: A punishment can't be a deterrent if the child doesn't know that the behavior will be punished. Or if the rules are applied inconsistently. My siblings and I rarely misbehaved because we knew how we were expected to behave and it didn't even occur to us to do differently.

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How about some flexibility? Only asking, so don't take the question personally.
By flexibility I mean each generation views the world differently than their parents. So when you say "expected to behave" do you mean behave the way your parents expected you to behave or within the limits of common sense but you could still steer your own course?

tharock220 said:

Leashing children is the epitome of lazy parenting.

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I mean, I balk at it as well, but no, it's not, sometimes it's absolutely necessary. You can't ask people to be open minded about your approach if you're not willing to be open minded about theirs.

americanwoman said:

I agree. If your kid is about to put their hand on a hot stove and get permanent damage, a quick but not too hard hand/butt smack can be effective in the heat of the moment. That kind of thing so I can't fully say 'no' but no spanking as a consequence of a rule broken or discipline.

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Slapping the hand to prevent injury is not spanking. I meant spanking as a form of discipline in my poll. To that, my vote would go no to spanking but stop short of outlawing it, and leaning towards better education for parents to learn alternative methods.

daeler said:

Gen-X here, I still think it is effective, but I get why people want to move away from it. I think the problem you see today is the lack of consequences. Too many parents are hands off, they don't have time or the patience to actually be parents.

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There are already good, well-researched techniques available. There are good books on the subject.

When our son was 4, my wife and I went to this course offered through our county government which was advertised on his daycare's billboard ("Improving Your Parenting Skills")- what a fantastic and informative class. It was taught by child psychologists. They went through many of the techniques, using videos showing various scenarios.

I also would strongly recommend this book which we find very helpful. It's one of the new techniques which has been researched. I can vouch from personal experience that it really did work like magic for us:



One of the psychologists at the course was saying that when the new techniques are shown to most parents, they are accepted and adapted by them- except perhaps a few highly religious types who keep quoting the "spare the rod, spoil the child" scriptural quotes and keep wanting to stick with the old traditional ways of doing things. She said those scenarios are much more challenging, and often lead to very bad consequences for the child and the parent-child relationship: it leads to bullying behavior at school, because the child learns that might makes right. It also leads to a higher incidence of tension and estrangement with the parents as the child grows up, and the cycles of violence are repeated in the child's future relationships, with higher incidence of emotional/physical abuse in their own family as well. The cycle perpetuates.

Just stop. There is no reason for this barbaric and primitive practice.

OlNate said:

Spankings past 5 or 6 years old would be inappropriate to me.

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I have always respected your opinions on this forum but on this one I disagree. Spanking someone that young leaves a lasting impression. We may not see it or we may think as they get older they won't remember their spanking. But spanking still sends a message that it is ok to use physical force. Kids as young as you suggest can't "reason" why they were spanked, so it's the opposite of what you stated, when that young, they only understand that force was used and may not understand why it was used. Even if you tell them why. At that age you could tell them that eating grass is bad for them and they will still eat the grass because they don't have the maturity to understand the consequence. If a child that young DOES relate the spanking to a particular action they may stop that action but take other inappropriate actions, because they are too young to understand the general concept of why the spanking was used beyond saying no to that "one" thing.

SNOWFLAKE said:

Let me state this: Though retired I know quite a few kids and their parents. Kids nowadays are labeled as lazy, entitled, spoiled, and snarky.
Not my experience. I could post dozens of studies that show that children that are spanked are actually more likely to grow up wanting to spank their kids than parents who use other methods to discipline.

Of all the parents I know, none use spanking, and their kids are doing fine. Mind you, that is just from a casual observation, not exactly a scientific study.

Still................... spanking is still perceived as a necessary form of discipline. And arguments for and against can become quite intense. Typically "Don't tell me how to discipline my child!"

So, straight up, is spanking effective? Or, as it is happening in some countries, should be outlawed? Even if not outlawed, should it still be used as a form of discipline in this day and age?

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Spanking should not happen anymore.

Teaching your kid that when someone does something wrong, that you should hurt them, is a bad lesson. If you have a problem, like you spill a glass of milk, being spanked doesn’t help solve the problem at all. What helps the problem is cleaning it up. So the best method is to calmly guide the child to cleaning up their own spilled milk. Now, they learn that their action has consequences, and they learn how to deal with those consequences.

OlNate said:

Physical reinforcement is a tool to use when verbal approaches do not work.

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Again, I have to rebut. What about a senior? Your mom or dad. You are caring for them at home. They have dementia. They constantly misbehave and cause you grief. Would you spank them? See, the law would consider THAT abuse. Yet a kid is fair game?

ataraxia said:

There are already good, well-researched techniques available. There are good books on the subject.

When our son was 4, my wife and I went to this course offered through our county government which was advertised on his daycare's billboard ("Improving Your Parenting Skills")- what a fantastic and informative class. It was taught by child psychologists. They went through many of the techniques, using videos showing various scenarios.

I also would strongly recommend this book which we find very helpful. It's one of the new techniques which has been researched. I can vouch from personal experience that it really did work like magic for us:

View attachment 67573189

One of the psychologists at the course was saying that when the new techniques are shown to most parents, they are accepted and adapted by them- except perhaps a few highly religious types who keep quoting the "spare the rod, spoil the child" scriptural quotes and keep wanting to stick with the old traditional ways of doing things. She said those scenarios are much more challenging, and often lead to very bad consequences for the child and the parent-child relationship: it leads to bullying behavior at school, because the child learns that might makes right. It also leads to a higher incidence of tension and estrangement with the parents as the child grows up, and the cycles of violence are repeated in the child's future relationships, with higher incidence of emotional/physical abuse in their own family as well. The cycle perpetuates.

Just stop. There is no reason for this barbaric and primitive practice.

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I am glad you found something that worked for you.

I pointed out that spanking is valid if used properly, the negative effects are usually from those that can't or wont use it properly.

The reason I understand why people dislike it is because the practice is abused more than it is used correctly.

OlNate said:

I mean, I balk at it as well, but no, it's not, sometimes it's absolutely necessary. You can't ask people to be open minded about your approach if you're not willing to be open minded about theirs.

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I am open minded about it. There are better ways to take your children into public if you’re willing to put in the effort.

OlNate said:

We lived in northern Ontario. The attitude around "leashes" (good grief, I still hate that term) was about what you'd expect. Most people there would never gain the insight you did, because they'd likely never be in that situation. This is another example where lived experience is going to drive one's attitude and approach to all of this.

(This is me agreeing with you, in case that wasn't clear...hehe)

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Crystal clear. Your responses and those of @BirdinHand got me thinking of another thing that my wife and I discussed about kid leashes after the Gymboree incident, and it kind of goes with the general discussion here.

As observers, we simply do not have the facts to make judgments about what other people do with their kids. There are no “one size fits all” solutions. That’s why I originally stated that I don’t believe in absolutes. And I’m not talking about obvious abuse situations that other adults can see and recognize. But to assume that every kid on the end of a kid leash is “normal,” is not right, either. They may be children with special needs at that time in their lives, who need the additional protection to stay safe. That’s why we stopped the judgmental snickering at others who use that solution to being out in public with their kids.

It just takes a little bit of introspection and understanding to get that.

trumptman said:

Both kids AND dogs can be trained with consistency and repetitive behavior.

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I didn't want my kids trained. Comparing the discipline of a child to that of a dog, JAYSUS!

trumptman said:

Violence is part of reality.

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THAT doesn't make it ok. What a sad argument to make. Do you think violence is acceptable against a wife, a senior, someone with development problems, against a neighbor or anyone else you get angry at?

Sorry for being harsh, but the mental image you have painted on what you believe is good parenting is frightening.

trumptman said:

If your neighbor is engaged in dangerous and bad behavior, that is the mitigating factor that would absolutely excuse your physical defense of yourself.

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Yeesh, your arguments get more and more frightening. You are NOT defending yourself when a kid is misbehaving. Unless that kid is physically attacking you. We are talking about spanking and you are relating that to someone assaulting you so that you have to "defend yourself?"

ataraxia said:

When our son was 4, my wife and I went to this course offered through our county government which was advertised on his daycare's billboard ("Improving Your Parenting Skills")- what a fantastic and informative class. It was taught by child psychologists. They went through many of the techniques, using videos showing various scenarios.

Click to expand...

Too often parenting classes are stigmatized as something bad parents have to take without realizing how much many parents could benefit. I don't mean to generalize but it seems to me like a vast majority of parents could use one of these courses. Even me, if I could go back. There's not much to prepare you for actually being a parent and then you only know how your parent's parented.

tharock220 said:

the discipline/control/training part

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Discipline for bad behavior shouldn't involve control or training. Think about that for a second. Do kids need to be "controlled" or "trained?" I taught mine the difference between right and wrong, but expected them to challenge me on my world views if they thought I was wrong. I wanted independent thinking kids, not controlled or trained kids.

ataraxia said:

There are already good, well-researched techniques available. There are good books on the subject.

When our son was 4, my wife and I went to this course offered through our county government which was advertised on his daycare's billboard ("Improving Your Parenting Skills")- what a fantastic and informative class. It was taught by child psychologists. They went through many of the techniques, using videos showing various scenarios.

I also would strongly recommend this book which we find very helpful. It's one of the new techniques which has been researched. I can vouch from personal experience that it really did work like magic for us:

View attachment 67573189

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ataraxia said:

One of the psychologists at the course

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Psychologists, that is the first Red Flag in the course. did they have any bible teachers to offer a counter opinion?

ataraxia said:

was saying that when the new techniques are shown to most parents, they are accepted and adapted by them- except perhaps a few highly religious types who keep quoting the "spare the rod, spoil the child" scriptural quotes and keep wanting to stick with the old traditional ways of doing things.

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the bible gets it right every time.

when we used the bible, we had real discipline in schools. we had Zero school shooting and drug problems............oh the short memories the liberals have.

ataraxia said:

She said those scenarios are much more challenging, and often lead to very bad consequences for the child and the parent-child relationship: it leads to bullying behavior at school, because the child learns that might makes right. It also leads to a higher incidence of tension and estrangement with the parents as the child grows up, and the cycles of violence are repeated in the child's future relationships, with higher incidence of emotional/physical abuse in their own family as well. The cycle perpetuates.

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ataraxia said:

Just stop. There is no reason for this barbaric and primitive practice.

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really? because you said so i guess. look at the Amish and their excellent discipline, go by the old Black Book and you wont be disappointed. and spank with real love for the child.


blessings.

stealthycat said:

every kid is different - most need spankings/physical discipline of some kind

4 years old cannot logic/reason like an adult. They do understand do this = good, don't do this = a little physical pain

discipline early on means not having to do nearly as much later on IMO

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If you have to hit a 4 year old, you shouldn't be a parent.

americanwoman said:

Too often parenting classes are stigmatized as something bad parents have to take without realizing how much many parents could benefit. I don't mean to generalize but it seems to me like a vast majority of parents could use one of these courses. Even me, if I could go back. There's not much to prepare you for actually being a parent and then you only know how your parent's parented.

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YET............................ parents resist any kind of classes on parenting. Topics like this one tend to create very defensive attitudes. Parenting is MY responsibility and no school, or neighbor, or other family member or society is gonna tell ME how to parent. So f*ck parenting courses. It's that kind of defensive attitude that contributes to bad parenting.

SNOWFLAKE said:

Discipline for bad behavior shouldn't involve control or training. Think about that for a second. Do kids need to be "controlled" or "trained?" I taught mine the difference between right and wrong, but expected them to challenge me on my world views if they thought I was wrong. I wanted independent thinking kids, not controlled or trained kids.

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You’re missing the point. All the posts saying I hit/never hit my kids and they turned out to be X ignores the rest of parenting and the impact it had on said children turning out to be X.