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Somebody save Turkey: Erdogan going MAD, flips out

kaya'08

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The prime minister harshly and openly criticized the media Tuesday, accusing it for the first time of supporting a terrorist organization, while the opposition held the government’s Kurdish move responsible for the increased terror attacks.

Speaking at the parliamentary group meeting of his ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan criticized the images of grieving mothers on TV, calling them propaganda that will serve terrorists.


Look at that face. This is why i am Kemalist. This is why i vote republican. This is what religion does to you.

He has taken another step over that line of no return. God help us!
 

Red_Dave

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Look at that face. This is why i am Kemalist. This is why i vote republican. This is what religion does to you.

He has taken another step over that line of no return. God help us!
How do you fancy Recep Bey's chances next year?
 

mbig

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Turkey's Radical Drift
The Islamic charity behind the Gaza flotilla and its links to terror.
Turkey's Radical Drift and the Gaza Flotilla Incident - WSJ.com
June 3, 2010

So the Prime Minister of Turkey calls Israel "a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity," while his foreign minister compares Monday's Israeli naval raid on a flotilla of ships headed for the Gaza Strip, in which nine passengers were killed, to the attacks of September 11, 2001. For good measure, the Turks have also wagged their finger at the Obama Administration for not immediately denouncing Israel's actions.

Yet the more facts that come to light about the flotilla, its passengers and their sponsors, the more it seems clear that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Ergodan's government, far more so than Israel's, must be held to account for Monday's violent episode. Maybe that's something the U.N. Human Rights Council, which on Wednesday condemned Israel for an "outrageous attack" and voted 32-3 to set up a "fact-finding mission" (with the U.S. in opposition), might get around to investigating, though we wouldn't hold our breath.

The Turkish accounting should begin with a full explanation from the government of its relationship with the IHH, an Istanbul-based Islamic "charity" that purchased three of the six boats used in the flotilla from the city government, sent hundreds of its activists along with it, and reportedly has ties to Turkey's ruling Islamist AKP Party.
[......]
 

Demon of Light

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Look at that face. This is why i am Kemalist. This is why i vote republican. This is what religion does to you.

He has taken another step over that line of no return. God help us!
God help you indeed, Kemalism was the basis for genocide against Greeks and ethnic cleansing of non-Turks. The CHP is even more nationalistic and radical than the AKP and would only increase ties to Russia and Iran and make more aggressive and destructive moves into Iraq. The CHP openly objected to the fact Turkey did not send its navy to protect the aid ships. If the CHP had its way Turkey would have had a naval skirmish with Israel and made things far worse. Erdogan has been one of the best things for Turkey's human rights situation and bringing back the CHP will only return to past abuses.

That said, Erdogan keeps showing signs of maybe back-tracking on rights, but the CHP is not a viable alternative. What Turkey needs is some political force free of the destructive forces of nationalism and radical Islamism.
 

kaya'08

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God help you indeed, Kemalism was the basis for genocide against Greeks and ethnic cleansing of non-Turks. The CHP is even more nationalistic and radical than the AKP and would only increase ties to Russia and Iran and make more aggressive and destructive moves into Iraq. The CHP openly objected to the fact Turkey did not send its navy to protect the aid ships.
Wrong. Kemalism is a secular movement based on the ideals of enlightenment which focuses on democracy and the protection of human rights within a republican state.
What genocide against Greeks?
Greeks ethnicly cleansed Turks in cyprus for 40 years and murdered the British inhabitants from the colonial era. The CHP NEVER stated the aid flotilla's should be protected but should have been warned about the dangers they faced by the Turkish government before they left.
They are the biggest opponents of the Turkey-Iran relationship and have stated repeatedly that Erdogan's anti-israel rhetoric is far too harsh (you really have no clue what you are talking about, do you?).
Hell, the CHP brought us to the brink of war with Syria. They are very pro-EU and have always been against shifting focus to Eastern nations. Under the CHP Turkey fought in North Korea under NATO, contributed to the first gulf war and set up incirlik. Nothing about them in anyway fits your "sources".


If the CHP had its way Turkey would have had a naval skirmish with Israel and made things far worse. Erdogan has been one of the best things for Turkey's human rights situation and bringing back the CHP will only return to past abuses.
:roll:

Again, read above.
Anyway, the CHP era in the 90's and 80's where locked by religious-secular infighting in Turkey which lead to several coups. Before then, the CHP has always been the biggest supporter of women rights and Western democracy. Erdogan has done a lot of good for Turkey at the same time a lot of bad, yes, but during CHP rule critizing the media was out of the question let alone banning websites.
 

kaya'08

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Also, you confuse Kemalist nationalism with normal nationalism.

Nationalism (Turkish: Milliyetçilik): The Kemalist revolution aimed to create a nation state (Turkish: Ulus) from the Turkish remnants of the Ottoman Empire. The meaning of Turkishness (Turkish: Türküm) is frequently misunderstood by those who fail to realize that it is not a description of ethnicity [the Turkic ethnicity] but a commitment to an 'imagined' nationhood of people living within the National Pact (Turkish: Misak-ı Milli) borders.[7] "Turkishness" (citizenship of Turkey) is the cornerstone of the Republic of Turkey.[7] Kemalist ideology defines the "Turkish People" as "those who protect and promote the moral, spiritual, cultural and humanistic values of the Turkish Nation."[8] Kemalist ideology defines the "Turkish Nation" as a nation of Turkish People who always love and seek to exalt their family, country and nation, who know their duties and responsibilities towards the democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law, founded on human rights, and on the tenets laid down in the preamble to the constitution of the Republic of Turkey.
Also, remember under what party and what ideology became one of the first nations to recognize Israel and establish the soul mate like relations we once had.
 
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Demon of Light

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Wrong. Kemalism is a secular movement based on the ideals of enlightenment which focuses on democracy and the protection of human rights within a republican state.
Funny, because under Ataturk and his Kemalist successors Turkey was anything but respectful of human rights and democracy.

What genocide against Greeks?
During the Greco-Turkish War Greeks were massacred in large numbers.

The CHP NEVER stated the aid flotilla's should be protected but should have been warned about the dangers they faced by the Turkish government before they left.
Really?:

Main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) Bursa deputy Onur Öymen, himself a former diplomat, says Turkey should have deployed war ships to accompany the aid convoy.

“There were statements that Israel was going to resort to violence to stop the flotilla. What did Turkey in light of these statements? Did Turkey take an initiative considering the possibility of such an attack?” Öymen asked in an interview with Today’s Zaman. Stating that the current situation shows that Turkey did not take necessary steps to protect these ships, he added that what is upsetting is that the government neither deterred Israel from an intervention nor properly protected the convoy.
Source: Today's Zaman

They are the biggest opponents of the Turkey-Iran relationship and have stated repeatedly that Erdogan's anti-israel rhetoric is far too harsh (you really have no clue what you are talking about, do you?).
Funny, because they also suggested Israel was involved in an attack by the PKK against the Turkish military:

The first noteworthy move came from the main opposition Republican People’s Party, or CHP, leader Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu. He said: “Various circles have concerns over this issue. Seven soldiers were killed. This is something very important. As the Israeli marines continue operations, such an attack took place in Turkey. This is very intriguing,” as he answered the questions of reporters Monday.
Source: Hurriyet Daily News

Oh, and Turkey's tilt towards Iran began before Erdogan became Prime Minister and for obvious reasons. On the PKK Turkey and Iran have common cause. Also the secular leaders are looking more to Russia now, meaning they will be aligned with Iran either way.

Hell, the CHP brought us to the brink of war with Syria.
Because at the time Syria was sheltering Abdullah Ocalan! Syria stopped and the relationship improved.

They are very pro-EU and have always been against shifting focus to Eastern nations.
They have supported joining the EU, but the AKP has made a lot more effort at meeting the criteria and is currently much more supportive of joining the EU.

Under the CHP Turkey fought in North Korea under NATO, contributed to the first gulf war and set up incirlik. Nothing about them in anyway fits your "sources".
Two of these things happened in the fifties and the Gulf War even saw Syria fighting alongside the U.S. Just because we were allies at one point does not mean we will be allies forever.

Anyway, the CHP era in the 90's and 80's where locked by religious-secular infighting in Turkey which lead to several coups. Before then, the CHP has always been the biggest supporter of women rights and Western democracy. Erdogan has done a lot of good for Turkey at the same time a lot of bad, yes, but during CHP rule critizing the media was out of the question let alone banning websites.
You should take off the rose-colored glasses. Turkey's history under the Kemalist groups has been anything but democratic and respectful of human rights. Bringing up websites is kind of ridiculous considering the Internet was not the force it is today under the CHP and for much of the time didn't exist. The CHP and secular elite tried to ban the AKP to seize power and they have consistently backed military coups and suppression of free speech.

Also, you confuse Kemalist nationalism with normal nationalism.
I am not confusing it with anything. Under Kemalist leadership Turkey's government has oppressed Greeks, Armenians, and even the Kurds who were partners under the Ottoman leadership. The CHP is far more radical as it concerns the Kurds and would only risk war with Iraq, which would put them directly at odds with the U.S.

Also, remember under what party and what ideology became one of the first nations to recognize Israel and establish the soul mate like relations we once had.
I don't think Turkey would rescind recognition of Israel, but that does not mean they will remain allies. The fact is, both secularist and Islamist leaders in Turkey are moving away from Israel and the West and towards countries like Iran and Russia.
 

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Funny, because under Ataturk and his Kemalist successors Turkey was anything but respectful of human rights and democracy.
:lamo
Oh really? Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights. I was under the impression he abolished the caliphate and with it the ethnicly arranged and religiously discriminant political system adopted by the Ottoman empire. Im also under the impression you have no idea what you are talking about, and that you say whatever your Jewish/Armenian/Nazi possy say.

During the Greco-Turkish War Greeks were massacred in large numbers.
Lots of people have died in Iraq. Is that a genocide? How about the Greek independence which led to large numbers of deaths of Turks? Was it not a war between two nation states?

He is the Bursa mayor of the main opposition party. Hardly represents the official views of the party. Give it up. :roll:


Funny, because they also suggested Israel was involved in an attack by the PKK against the Turkish military:

Source: Hurriyet Daily News
Actually from what i understand he was not making a suggestion about Israel being behind the attacks, but Israel and the US deliberately withholding intel.

Oh, and Turkey's tilt towards Iran began before Erdogan became Prime Minister and for obvious reasons. On the PKK Turkey and Iran have common cause. Also the secular leaders are looking more to Russia now, meaning they will be aligned with Iran either way.
Really? When?

Because at the time Syria was sheltering Abdullah Ocalan! Syria stopped and the relationship improved.
Actually, before that even. Euphrates river should ring a bell.

They have supported joining the EU, but the AKP has made a lot more effort at meeting the criteria and is currently much more supportive of joining the EU.
The AKP uses the EU as an excuse to introduce reforms that weaken the secular grip on Turkish society and with it the judiciary. This is nothing but a slow and secret take over. The AKP never used to support joining the EU, but because it remains a popular institution in Turkey, it was a vote gatherer.

Two of these things happened in the fifties and the Gulf War even saw Syria fighting alongside the U.S. Just because we were allies at one point does not mean we will be allies forever.
Syria does what it needs to meet its interests. The gulf war was just one of those things. The Turkey-US relationship has been a long one stretching back years. The core policies of the CHP remain unchanged.

You should take off the rose-colored glasses. Turkey's history under the Kemalist groups has been anything but democratic and respectful of human rights. Bringing up websites is kind of ridiculous considering the Internet was not the force it is today under the CHP and for much of the time didn't exist. The CHP and secular elite tried to ban the AKP to seize power and they have consistently backed military coups and suppression of free speech.
The CHP did what they could to sustain our secularism. We let our eyes off the ball for a second and then what? Look whats happening today. The CHP may not have ruled during the digital hay day, but the media has always been around, and they have always been a guarantor of this free speech outlet. The CHP was against the Kurdish initiative because it was ethnicized - what about our other minorities?
Hell, as it stands, i myself support a coup. Because i know TAF will restore our secular democracy and put us back on the right track. Is this not what we all want? In our part of the world, people have to struggle to keep rational thinking alive in parliament. Secularism and civility doesn't come easy down this way. Look at our neighbours. A coup is nothing compared to the lengths most Turks would go to ensure our secularism.

I am not confusing it with anything. Under Kemalist leadership Turkey's government has oppressed Greeks, Armenians, and even the Kurds who were partners under the Ottoman leadership. The CHP is far more radical as it concerns the Kurds and would only risk war with Iraq, which would put them directly at odds with the U.S.
Your still stuck with the CHP in the 60's mate.

I don't think Turkey would rescind recognition of Israel, but that does not mean they will remain allies. The fact is, both secularist and Islamist leaders in Turkey are moving away from Israel and the West and towards countries like Iran and Russia.
Under the AKP, sure. :shrug:
And even if that was the case in general - you need to ask yourself, who is pushing Turkey in that direction?
 

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I'm not entirely familiar with recent Turkish history, but I do know of the great Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.



If I may ask Kaya... What changed?
 

VanceMack

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"Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights." How did they go from that to government sponsored prison brothels were women performed acts of prostitution to pay off the mans debts while the more valuable man stayed free and worked?
 

Demon of Light

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:lamo
Oh really? Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights. I was under the impression he abolished the caliphate and with it the ethnicly arranged and religiously discriminant political system adopted by the Ottoman empire.
He did create a secular government, this much is true, but so did Saddam. Have you heard of "enlightened despotism" where despots and absolutist monarchs embraced enlightenment values? Let's not forget that Stalin did pursue a number of progressive policies as well. Kemalism wasn't quite that bad, but it is very similar ideologically to Fascism. Ataturk was also Turkey's dictator for life up until 1938.

Im also under the impression you have no idea what you are talking about, and that you say whatever your Jewish/Armenian/Nazi possy say.
Waitaminut! This is too good to be true! At the same time some are claiming in another thread that I hate Jews I'm being accused of being part of a Jewish posse! Yesssssss!!!!! :lamo

Lots of people have died in Iraq. Is that a genocide? How about the Greek independence which led to large numbers of deaths of Turks? Was it not a war between two nation states?
Genocide is when a group or government seeks to wipe out an ethnic, national, and/or racial population in the country. Greece is not guilty of this, but Turkey is including under Ataturk.

He is the Bursa mayor of the main opposition party. Hardly represents the official views of the party. Give it up.
He is the Bursa MP from the CHP or as they call it in this article the Bursa deputy. Oymen is the deputy chairman of the Republican People's Party, the party of Ataturk, not some light-weight.

Actually from what i understand he was not making a suggestion about Israel being behind the attacks, but Israel and the US deliberately withholding intel.
While I would like to know why you think that he was all the same suggesting Israel was complicit.

Really? When?
I think the general inflection point is around 1997. That is when the rapprochement began.

Actually, before that even. Euphrates river should ring a bell.
The point is, the relationship had already begun improving and getting closer before the AKP came to power.

The AKP uses the EU as an excuse to introduce reforms that weaken the secular grip on Turkish society and with it the judiciary. This is nothing but a slow and secret take over. The AKP never used to support joining the EU, but because it remains a popular institution in Turkey, it was a vote gatherer.
The AKP has always supported joining the EU. I'm not sure what you're talking about it. As for weakening the secular grip, most of us outside observers would see that as protecting religious freedom and improving democratic standards.

Syria does what it needs to meet its interests. The gulf war was just one of those things. The Turkey-US relationship has been a long one stretching back years. The core policies of the CHP remain unchanged.
I am sorry, but all evidence points to the contrary. I have read several comments and it seems the concern of the CHP is not ties with Iran, but rather the concern that Erdogan is isolating Turkey from the West.

The CHP did what they could to sustain our secularism. We let our eyes off the ball for a second and then what? Look whats happening today. The CHP may not have ruled during the digital hay day, but the media has always been around, and they have always been a guarantor of this free speech outlet.
The hell they have. They have consistently abused human rights and the right to free speech when they've been in power.

Hell, as it stands, i myself support a coup. Because i know TAF will restore our secular democracy and put us back on the right track. Is this not what we all want? In our part of the world, people have to struggle to keep rational thinking alive in parliament. Secularism and civility doesn't come easy down this way. Look at our neighbours. A coup is nothing compared to the lengths most Turks would go to ensure our secularism.
You're arguing the notion of militant democracy, but that is a fool's argument. The end result is always a less democratic system and abuse of human rights. Throughout history this practice has ultimately resulted in the very type of government it has sought to prevent.

Your still stuck with the CHP in the 60's mate.
The CHP's hawkish foreign policy remains in tact. In a sense, I actually think Turkey's swing towards Russia and Iran could have positive effects like recognition of the Armenian genocide, though it will likely mean more radical approaches to the Kurds.

Under the AKP, sure. :shrug:
And even if that was the case in general - you need to ask yourself, who is pushing Turkey in that direction?
It isn't even a matter of a person pushing them in that direction, but just a natural gepolitical shift. In the region ties with Iran, Syria, and Russia are only natural. In some part resistance to bringig Turkey into the EU is also aiding this shift and our invasion of Iraq certainly didn't help, then you have Israel's policies. Also one critical shift that is defining is that the secular military establishment is looking for ties with Russia and Iran. Recent cooperation with Iran against Kurdish groups is only going to make that relationship tighter. We've already seen the more radical element of this in Ergenekon, which despite speculation by conspiracy theorists is aligned with Russia and has a Eurasianist stance.
 

kaya'08

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He did create a secular government, this much is true, but so did Saddam. Have you heard of "enlightened despotism" where despots and absolutist monarchs embraced enlightenment values? Let's not forget that Stalin did pursue a number of progressive policies as well. Kemalism wasn't quite that bad, but it is very similar ideologically to Fascism. Ataturk was also Turkey's dictator for life up until 1938.
Ataturk established an authoriatrian rule with the aim of stopping religious political opponents who wanted to rip the country open into an Islamic republic. The point of his leadership was to create a safe transition to a parliamentary Democracy, hence why in the last decade of his life, once he had finished that work, he established the CHP and assumed the role of the first Prime minister of Turkey, at which point the transition to secular democracy has been complete.
Kemalism is the idea that a country is a unified body with a secular stance on domestic and foreign issues. It is against dynastic and one party rule, and your comparisons to fascism is just dishonest BS.

Waitaminut! This is too good to be true! At the same time some are claiming in another thread that I hate Jews I'm being accused of being part of a Jewish posse! Yesssssss!!!!! :lamo
Then you need to make up your mind.

Genocide is when a group or government seeks to wipe out an ethnic, national, and/or racial population in the country. Greece is not guilty of this, but Turkey is including under Ataturk.
Oh boy, look at you. Pathetic. :roll:
The Greeks invaded much of Turkey. The war of independance got Turkey back. What genocide? Where has this come from? What historical bases do you have for this claim? This was a war with the odds tipped against the Greeks. We handed there arses to them. Are you for real?


While I would like to know why you think that he was all the same suggesting Israel was complicit.

I think the general inflection point is around 1997. That is when the rapprochement began.
How? What brings you to this conclusion? I was under the impression the CHP had expelled an Iranian diplomat for anti-semetic remarks, but clearly your sources are flawed.


The point is, the relationship had already begun improving and getting closer before the AKP came to power.
Wrong.

The AKP has always supported joining the EU. I'm not sure what you're talking about it. As for weakening the secular grip, most of us outside observers would see that as protecting religious freedom and improving democratic standards.
Actually, just you, as an outside observer. If you believe weakening secularism in state politics and 'protecting religious freedom' only for ONE religion in paticular while ignoring the Christians and Alveli's then you have your facts muddled up. And in regards to Democratic standards, what exactly has he done to improve these, again? Please remind me.

I am sorry, but all evidence points to the contrary. I have read several comments and it seems the concern of the CHP is not ties with Iran, but rather the concern that Erdogan is isolating Turkey from the West.
What does this have to do with what i just said?

The hell they have. They have consistently abused human rights and the right to free speech when they've been in power.
Wrong. Turkey under the AKP has become the 2nd biggest violator of human rights in the ECHR, and freedom of media has declined the most under the AKP, whereas under the CHP it saw increases- and we where not even close to the 2nd biggest violator in the ECHR.



You're arguing the notion of militant democracy, but that is a fool's argument. The end result is always a less democratic system and abuse of human rights. Throughout history this practice has ultimately resulted in the very type of government it has sought to prevent.
Not neccessarily. After the coup, Turkey today is far more democratic and free then it was, say, under Suleyman Demirel.

The CHP's hawkish foreign policy remains in tact. In a sense, I actually think Turkey's swing towards Russia and Iran could have positive effects like recognition of the Armenian genocide, though it will likely mean more radical approaches to the Kurds.
The CHP's foreign policy is to promote western ties. Whats so hawkish about it?
 

kaya'08

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CHP disturbed by worsened Turk-Israeli ties

Another criticism posed by Kılıçdaroğlu to the government during the luncheon was the downturn in Turkish-Israeli relations, escalated by the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla last month.

“He did not like some of the messages from the government regarding Israel,” said diplomatic sources. The CHP leader said he opposed the Israeli blockade of Gaza as an “unjust policy” as well as the “excessive force” used by Israel. But he stressed that his party was disturbed by the worsened Turkish-Israeli relations after the flotilla crisis and described the government’s Israel policy as “unfortunate,” according to the sources. He accused the AKP of intervening in the politics of other countries.
CHP leader uncomfortable with shift of axis debates

Kılıçdaroğlu also expressed discomfort with debates over a shift of axis in foreign policy, repeating his party wants Turkey to enter the EU. He said his party understands joining the EU is not an easy process for Turkey but asked the ambassadors not to distance themselves from Turkey.

One of the EU diplomats who attended the luncheon expressed content about the “interactive discussion” with the CHP leader. “I was quite impressed. He was very studious, very clear and very positive,” said the diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity.
CHP leader asks EU envoys to engage in self-criticism on terror - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

I dont see a 21st century CHP wanting to embrace Iran. I also would like to make it clear that Iran and Turkey have always been regional power contenders, especially under the CHP. In fact, this large "shift of axis" "in favour" of Iran if you will happened under AKP. Not MHP, not CHP, but AKP. There is a very good reason for that too.

It isn't even a matter of a person pushing them in that direction, but just a natural gepolitical shift. In the region ties with Iran, Syria, and Russia are only natural. In some part resistance to bringig Turkey into the EU is also aiding this shift and our invasion of Iraq certainly didn't help, then you have Israel's policies. Also one critical shift that is defining is that the secular military establishment is looking for ties with Russia and Iran. Recent cooperation with Iran against Kurdish groups is only going to make that relationship tighter. We've already seen the more radical element of this in Ergenekon, which despite speculation by conspiracy theorists is aligned with Russia and has a Eurasianist stance.
A natural geopolitical shift? If it was natural it wouldn't have taken 100 years. Reasons need to arise to prompt such policy changes which remained relatively unchanged for decades. A wealth of policy mistakes over the past two decades have caused this shift. The hood event strained our relations with the US and in response Turkey failed to pass a bill permitting US soldiers to use Turkish airspace. The lack of American political will to take a neutral stance in the Middle East but refusing to deal with any sort of criticism on Israel has hurt there credibility further in the Middle East, and eventually Turkey when our relations started to sour with Israel. Turkey also was not satisfied with the measures and lack of strategic clarity by Netanyahu in the Gaza war to prevent the humanitarian crises caused in Gaza which naturally drew attention to the blockade which has led us to where we are now. And then its the EU, constantly and forever throwing invisible problems and hurdles and obstacles to obstruct Turkey's path to a membership it has sought since it was established all those years ago. Indeed, it has been pushed, and very little has been done to acknowledge and act on this. Nobody thought to stand back and say; "we are going to embargo Iran. What about Turkey? What effect will that have on Turkey's own economy?". I think many nations remain till this day very oblivious and ignorant to the fact that, as a nation sharing a border with Iran, Turkey cannot just ignore it and pretend it is not there. Maybe mainland Europe can afford that, but we cannot, and people need to respect that what happens there affects us, and that for the sake of regional stability a degree or interaction has to happen between the two nations, which caused the last ditch attempted to transfer uranium. And without a measure of gaurentee from the West to protect our own economic interests in light of a regional economic power in our sphere of influence going down, nobody is likely to get much out of Turkey for the long term. The EU can make those economic gaurentee's, those structural gaurentee's, but its policy of constantly irritating the Turkish public by creating some obstructive mess has made us realize we cannot wait for the west forever.
 
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Demon of Light

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Ataturk established an authoriatrian rule with the aim of stopping religious political opponents who wanted to rip the country open into an Islamic republic. The point of his leadership was to create a safe transition to a parliamentary Democracy, hence why in the last decade of his life, once he had finished that work, he established the CHP and assumed the role of the first Prime minister of Turkey, at which point the transition to secular democracy has been complete.
What are you talking about? The Republican People's Party existed from the beginning of the Republic of Turkey and he started out as Prime Minister and then became President. Also the CHP was the sole party allowed for much of that time even three decades after being created. The only parties created were spun-off fromthe CHP and had very short lifespans. The most successful one was after Ataturk died and that government was eventually removed in a military coup d'etat for being more moderate. During this time a number anti-Greek pogroms were initiated, which eventually cleansed Turkey of most of its remaining Greek population.

Kemalism is the idea that a country is a unified body with a secular stance on domestic and foreign issues. It is against dynastic and one party rule, and your comparisons to fascism is just dishonest BS.
My comparisons to fascism are rooted in factors like militarism, nationalism, an attempt to subvert religion to national goals, brainwashing in the education system, and seeing the people as cogs in a machine. Kemalism had embraced state socialism, which is a common economic element of fascism. Of course, this ideology developed at about the same time as Fascism. While I understand the transitional aspirations of Kemalism such ideas are present in Marxism and the philosophy of Sun Yat-sen. Of them all I would say Sun Yat-sen's philosophy is the only one that does not inherently invite autocracy.

Then you need to make up your mind.
The problem isn't me I can tell you that. ;)

The Greeks invaded much of Turkey. The war of independance got Turkey back. What genocide? Where has this come from? What historical bases do you have for this claim? This was a war with the odds tipped against the Greeks. We handed there arses to them. Are you for real?
There is no question about the Greek genocide. While Greeks did commit massacres it was not of the same nature as what the Turks did. Turkey sought to exterminate Greeks in the region. It essentially carried on from the Ottoman genocides against Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians. This is aside from deliberate ethnic cleansing.

How? What brings you to this conclusion? I was under the impression the CHP had expelled an Iranian diplomat for anti-semetic remarks, but clearly your sources are flawed.
I am sorry but citing some incident over a diplomat, is not nearly enough. There was a very public rapprochement beginning in this period.

Actually, just you, as an outside observer. If you believe weakening secularism in state politics and 'protecting religious freedom' only for ONE religion in paticular while ignoring the Christians and Alveli's then you have your facts muddled up. And in regards to Democratic standards, what exactly has he done to improve these, again? Please remind me.
Democratic standards includes religious freedom and it also means loosening the grip of an unelected elite on the mechanisms of democracy. Both of these things have been advanced by Turkey.

What does this have to do with what i just said?
You are arguing CHP is an ally of the U.S. and opposes ties with Iran so I am pointing out how their objections seems to mainly be that they fear Turkey being isolated because of Erdogan's rhetoric.

Wrong. Turkey under the AKP has become the 2nd biggest violator of human rights in the ECHR, and freedom of media has declined the most under the AKP, whereas under the CHP it saw increases- and we where not even close to the 2nd biggest violator in the ECHR.
Oh come on, talk about spin:

According to statistics from the Foreign Ministry, Turkey was sentenced to 33 million euros in 567 different cases between 1990 -- when Turkey allowed individual applications to the European court -- and 2006. A majority of these cases are related to events that took place in southeastern Anatolia when it was declared that the region was in a state of emergency. This label was officially applied to the Southeast between July 1987 and November 2002 due to terrorist activities perpetrated by the outlawed Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK).

Turkey, which accounts for 9.5 percent of the cases at the European court, has been fined many times due to the violations of human rights that took place in the Southeast at that time, where JİTEM -- a secret and illicit military intelligence agency -- was active. JİTEM has now come up again on Turkey's agenda after retired Col. Arif Doğan was detained in the investigation into Ergenekon, a criminal network suspected of plotting a coup against the government.
Source: Today's Zaman

Honestly, if you want proof of how the situation has improved you just need to look at the human rights situation of the Kurds.

Not neccessarily. After the coup, Turkey today is far more democratic and free then it was, say, under Suleyman Demirel.
Turkey today is far more democratic, but not because of any coup.

The CHP's foreign policy is to promote western ties. Whats so hawkish about it?
Their positions on Cyprus and the Kurds for one. Indeed, their policy with regards to the Kurdish issue will guarantee they cannot have good ties with the U.S. and Israel. Right now the Kurds are an essential ally in Iraq and against Iran, while Turkey has common cause with Iran against the Kurds.

I dont see a 21st century CHP wanting to embrace Iran. I also would like to make it clear that Iran and Turkey have always been regional power contenders, especially under the CHP. In fact, this large "shift of axis" "in favour" of Iran if you will happened under AKP. Not MHP, not CHP, but AKP. There is a very good reason for that too.
Maybe as it stands they are not "embracing Iran" so to speak, but they are also not opposed to Iran ties like you said. I think CHP would be more leaning towards Russia then Iran, though the two go hand-in-hand.

A natural geopolitical shift? If it was natural it wouldn't have taken 100 years.
Turkey's ties with Iran haven't taken 100 years. Their ties took a hit after the Islamic Revolution in 1979, but before that ties were splendid. This was due to Iran and Turkey's mutual alignment with the U.S. and the Islamic Revolution challenged that. Now a different re-alignment is taking place with Russia and regardless of who is in power that will continue and push Turkey and Iran closer together. One should also note this is partly due to a moderation of politics in Iran. The fervor and excess of the revolution has largely faded.

And without a measure of gaurentee from the West to protect our own economic interests in light of a regional economic power in our sphere of influence going down, nobody is likely to get much out of Turkey for the long term.
Just thought I'd say something. Iran is definitely not going down. I think people greatly underestimate Iran and greatly underestimate the impact of a war in the region for those going after Iran.
 

AGmines

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Re: Erdogan Is Finished Erdogan Just Does Not Know It yet!

"Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights." How did they go from that to government sponsored prison brothels were women performed acts of prostitution to pay off the mans debts while the more valuable man stayed free and worked?
The Kurds of Eastern Turkey will continue to seek Indepenence. Iran is doomed under current leadership. The Military of Turkey will not die for Erdogan and he will be ousted very soon. Erdogan badly mis-calculated his position, judgments, and will not be tolerated in a secular Turkey.

Men of Hate such as Erdogan never survive as their own hates consumes them.

Turkey is better off without him.
:mrgreen:
 
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AGmines

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Iran is not unstoppable. There are many other tribes, nationalities, and people wanting Independence. Once they converge on IRAN into separate movemnets the Iranian Government of gulag goons clergy will fall and be replaced with an enlighten secular leadership that will lead peace throughout the Middle East.

The Iranian People have been enlighten for many centuries and it will return and blossom into a New Age Of reason in Iran.

The same thing will happen in Turkey, and when Hamas and Hisbolahah either change or be ignored as they are now.

Jordan and Eqypt fought against Israel and now are good neighbors recognizing their right to exists as a Jewish State. The same will happen with Turkey and Iran.
 
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