Soldier Told Not to Read Levin, Limbaugh or Hannity in Uniform

[justabubba]

My argument that it's illegal to order a soldier to produce private medical information is as good as gold.

i will type this slowly in the hope that you will read it at the same rate

NO ONE is saying that it is not "illegal to order a soldier to produce private medical information"

what we are saying is

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to indicate the soldier is being asked for PRIVATE medical information

our belief is that the msgt has been directed to provide the appointment time/date for his child's medical appointments

nothing about that violates privacy rights

 

[Oozlefinch]

i will type this slowly in the hope that you will read it at the same rate

NO ONE is saying that it is not "illegal to order a soldier to produce private medical information"

what we are saying is

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to indicate the soldier is being asked for PRIVATE medical information

our belief is that the msgt has been directed to provide the appointment time/date for his child's medical appointments

nothing about that violates privacy rights

I mostly rejected this article because it is not a real news article, but an opinion piece, and as such has very little "hard factual evidence". Mostly it is a bunch of "he said", with very little "she said", and most of the claims made were rather silly. If something like that had happened to me, I would simply have asked for the individual ordering me not to read certain books to put that order in writing. If the order is legitimate, they would have no problem doing so. If it is spurious, then they would refuse and back off.

I do not know anything about this individual, but I would be willing to bet it was mostly blown way out of proportion by the individuals involved (the piece writer and the Soldier).

 

[justabubba]

I mostly rejected this article because it is not a real news article, but an opinion piece, and as such has very little "hard factual evidence". Mostly it is a bunch of "he said", with very little "she said", and most of the claims made were rather silly. If something like that had happened to me, I would simply have asked for the individual ordering me not to read certain books to put that order in writing. If the order is legitimate, they would have no problem doing so. If it is spurious, then they would refuse and back off.

I do not know anything about this individual, but I would be willing to bet it was mostly blown way out of proportion by the individuals involved (the piece writer and the Soldier).

i agree with your post
now commenting about the portion i placed in bold font
this is not unusual, where management will say verbally what it will not place in writing, to preserve plausible deniability
but my experience is management will ignore your request to reduce to writing what was spoken verbally

i have a situation like that right now, where a team leader physically assaulted a subordinate and management told the parties they could not "interface" with each other
as if the subordinate can somehow manage not to communicate with the team leader and still get the work done

so, the solution is to have the subordinate employee compose a memo for record about what was said and their understanding of it and the implication of that verbal directive on their position; then send that email to the supervisor who verbally expressed it, with a cc to the employee's email, and another cc (or blind copy) to me (as their union rep)
this forces the manager to either retract/clarify the verbal directive or live with what was stated in the memo for record

do this and management may not like you, but they will damn well have to respect you

 

[Oozlefinch]

i agree with your post
now commenting about the portion i placed in bold font
this is not unusual, where management will say verbally what it will not place in writing, to preserve plausible deniability
but my experience is management will ignore your request to reduce to writing what was spoken verbally

Well, at least 3 times I had that happen to me in the military (twice in the Marines, once in the Army). All 3 times, the individual backed off almost immediately because they knew it was not a lawful order, and could get in trouble for trying to enforce it upon me. One time in fact it was an E-7 who tried to tell me I could not read in a waiting room (but playing PSP and talking on a cell phone was acceptable to him). He tried to give me crap, but he did not put his order in writing (he was a petty individual, and successfully made himself look like an arse to others by his attempted attacks against me).

 

[APACHERAT]

Well, at least 3 times I had that happen to me in the military (twice in the Marines, once in the Army). All 3 times, the individual backed off almost immediately because they knew it was not a lawful order, and could get in trouble for trying to enforce it upon me. One time in fact it was an E-7 who tried to tell me I could not read in a waiting room (but playing PSP and talking on a cell phone was acceptable to him). He tried to give me crap, but he did not put his order in writing (he was a petty individual, and successfully made himself look like an arse to others by his attempted attacks against me).

I once carried out an unlawful order knowing it was an unlawful order. Didn't have anything to do with the ROE or was I in Nam at the time. It happened in garrison while at Pendleton. Didn't get an Article 15 or any other charges against me but did "Stand Before the Man." I lied and convinced the Captain that I believed it was a lawful order. Later on that day the Top confronted me and said "You ######, you know I was just ####### with you and you knew it wasn't a real order." I just grinned.

 

[Jerry]

I once carried out an unlawful order knowing it was an unlawful order. Didn't have anything to do with the ROE or was I in Nam at the time. It happened in garrison while at Pendleton. Didn't get an Article 15 or any other charges against me but did "Stand Before the Man." I lied and convinced the Captain that I believed it was a lawful order. Later on that day the Top confronted me and said "You ######, you know I was just ####### with you and you knew it wasn't a real order." I just grinned.

No doubt there's a long backstory there.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

[Oozlefinch]

No doubt there's a long backstory there.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

That is so true!

That same Army E-7 that told me I was not allowed to read is a case in point. A month later we had a Sergeant Major's uniform inspection, and he was in charge of making sure our uniforms were prepared properly (we were all prior service, so I think we knew how to do that). When he looked at mine (6 ribbons, 3 hash marks), he stopped and asked me what they all were, and tried to tell me I did not wear the Marine Corps Good Conduct or Deployment ribbons, but the Army ones instead. Argument there. Then he told me I was not authorized to wear a star in my National Defense Service Medal (Gulf War, OIF/OEF) and to remove it. Big argument, ordered me to "fix my rack", and moved on.

BTW, before this the guy had served 3 years as a Drill Sergeant.

Simple solution, got a copy of the Army Regulation, and a copy of my DD-214 and had them in my pocket the day of the inspection.

SGM comes by to inspect us, and this clown looks as me and says "I told you to take that star off of there!" SGM looks at me, looks at him, then at me again. Asks if I was in during the Gulf War and I say yes, then turns and tells the SFC that it was authorized.

Sad thing is, 4 months later another guy arrives in my unit, prior Army from the late 1980's. And don't you know it, the exact same arseclown tried to do the exact same thing! Told him to take the star off for second award, was refused, tried to make a stink in front of the SGM and was shot down again.

I had several other run-ins with that moron, and all of them ended with him on the loosing side (I was an E-3 too). Finally he made the mistake of trying to take a petty revenge on me, and a Sergeant Major from another unit was a witness to it all, and could not believe a senior NCO would act that way. He made a call to his SGM and told him all that had gone down and what he thought of it.

Within a week he was moved out of a leadership billet and put in an administrative one.

 

[apdst]

That is so true!

That same Army E-7 that told me I was not allowed to read is a case in point. A month later we had a Sergeant Major's uniform inspection, and he was in charge of making sure our uniforms were prepared properly (we were all prior service, so I think we knew how to do that). When he looked at mine (6 ribbons, 3 hash marks), he stopped and asked me what they all were, and tried to tell me I did not wear the Marine Corps Good Conduct or Deployment ribbons, but the Army ones instead. Argument there. Then he told me I was not authorized to wear a star in my National Defense Service Medal (Gulf War, OIF/OEF) and to remove it. Big argument, ordered me to "fix my rack", and moved on.

BTW, before this the guy had served 3 years as a Drill Sergeant.

Simple solution, got a copy of the Army Regulation, and a copy of my DD-214 and had them in my pocket the day of the inspection.

SGM comes by to inspect us, and this clown looks as me and says "I told you to take that star off of there!" SGM looks at me, looks at him, then at me again. Asks if I was in during the Gulf War and I say yes, then turns and tells the SFC that it was authorized.

Sad thing is, 4 months later another guy arrives in my unit, prior Army from the late 1980's. And don't you know it, the exact same arseclown tried to do the exact same thing! Told him to take the star off for second award, was refused, tried to make a stink in front of the SGM and was shot down again.

I had several other run-ins with that moron, and all of them ended with him on the loosing side (I was an E-3 too). Finally he made the mistake of trying to take a petty revenge on me, and a Sergeant Major from another unit was a witness to it all, and could not believe a senior NCO would act that way. He made a call to his SGM and told him all that had gone down and what he thought of it.

Within a week he was moved out of a leadership billet and put in an administrative one.

Amazing how duds slip through the system. I recall several times, asking outright, "so, tell me how you made it to E-6/E-7 again, because I'm just not seeing any talent there".

And you know, it's all about heart. I've seen NCO's and officers that weren't strong leaders, but their hearts were in the right place and that was good enough for me to give them every ounce of my support.

 

[APACHERAT]

Amazing how duds slip through the system. I recall several times, asking outright, "so, tell me how you made it to E-6/E-7 again, because I'm just not seeing any talent there".

And you know, it's all about heart. I've seen NCO's and officers that weren't strong leaders, but their hearts were in the right place and that was good enough for me to give them every ounce of my support.

I don't know apdst, a NCO in a grunt unit lacking in leadership isn't to smart to have around unless he has earned the respect of those serving under him.

But your right about giving them support.

When an officer or NCO has the respect of those he's in command of, they usually get the support from those he's in command of. I suppose it works the other way around.

Ever read "The Caine Mutiny" ? There's a message in it. Lt. Maryk, Lt. jg Keith and Lt. Keefer failed to provide the support of their Captain, Lt. Cmdr Queeg which led to all of the problems on the USS Caine.

The movie only covers about half of what's in the book. It use to be required reading for all JAG lawyers and recommended reading by many law schools in America.

I've saw a few butter bars who had to be taken aside by a Sergeant or SNCO to set them in the right direction of earning the respect by their men. I always noticed that mustangs never ever had the problem of earning the respect by those who served under them.