Soft boot camp for a soft generation

[Ductus_Exemplo]

Well in the airforce I think all they do is set you in front of a videogame and simulate it now. I was actually disappointed when I read they can't touch you. At the same time, being the kind of guy I am I don't know if I could take someone getting physical with me without ****ing punching them in the face. I look forward to the gas chamber though, I invite any kind of pain.

A lot people "invite" the pain in the beginning, but after day three of inprocessing, thats gone. CS gas isnt really all that bad, just depends on how well you can control yourself. The worst thing I have had was OC spray, I felt like my face was melting off, and it was 20x worse than CS gas. Ive been gased in the chamber and in the field, the chamber was worse for obvious reasons. But OC spray takes the cake, hands down. Plus wait till it reactivates in the shower (wear swimming trunks).

Also I wouldnt broadcast that "I dont know if I could take someone being physical with me without punching them in the face", that sounds like some dude in a bar talking. When you have a steely eyed DI thats probably a black belt staring you down, you wont even think about punching him. Plus its all about self-discipline, you have to be able to take the pain and remain calm.
tun
Any introductory military training is designed to be intense, it HAS TO BE INTENSE. But when that intensity keeps getting toned down, then the fear factor gets lower. Not to mention when recruits know they "cant touch them", then the stubborn ones that need more convincing are harder to train or they slip through the cracks, which is the worst. Then you see those people out in the fleet somewhere, and they become some poor sgt or Lt's problem.

 

[cpwill]

Here is what I am reading--people that are to ***** themselves to actually join bitching about it, or old timers that didn't have to rely on advanced technology to keep us out of harms way bitching about it, not taking in account that more people commit suicide in the military than actually die in combat.

hi my name is cpwill, actively serving in United States Marine Corps. the whole concept of the military making the deliberate move into softer territory is actually quite the hot topic currently, you may want to go pick up and peruse the lead article on it in the recent (Aug 23rd) Marine Corps Times, for example.

I might be joining up early next year and nobody I have talked to think it is to soft at all. Also good one cpwill, guarantees they come home in body bags huh?

yes, it does. you think it doesn't, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but you're going to be better off selling it to someone who hasn't buried good men because of the weakness of others; weakness that was a product of the system that produced and trained them.

 

[cpwill]

We don't have a clear objective, though. That's the hindrance over there.

actually we do; it's called a population-centric doctrine.

Short of killing every Afghan citizen, I don't see much of a way to eradicate the insurgency.

proper Counterinsurgency Strategy; we in the Marine Corps have been implementing it for almost a century now. Then Gen Matthis taught it to Gen Patraeus, and now the Army is (finally) on board as well.

They want us out of their damn country, and they're not going to stop wanting that, or stop fighting for it, until every last one of them is dead or until they've driven us out.

actually that's nowhere near being true. the vast majority of them really don't care that much about the central government in Kabul; they want security, they want some prosperity, and mostly they want an end to warfare and terror. eventually do they want us to leave? yes they do. eventually i would like to pay off the US debt; that doesn't mean i'm willing to jack up everyone's tax rate to 100% and hope it works in order to try pulling it off next year, you want it done in such a way that it won't crash the system.

a poll of Afghani's from earlier this year, for example:

in short, they're acting exactly as patriotic Americans would if the situation were reversed

okay i'm sorry. are you suggesting that if America were to have brutal civil war waged across her for a decade, ended by a totalitarian and particularly cruel group of religious extremists, who were then replaced by foriegn invaders, that our response would be to begin cutting off each others' extremities, torturing children, murdering innocents for breaking dress code, and seeking to keep half of our population as slaves?

cause if so i think you and i are meeting entirely different 'patriotic' Americans

the Taliban aren't some kind of "Afghanistan minutemen", as Michael Moore so disgustingly compared AQI. they are a mixture of criminals, fanatics, and thugs who's only point in life is to live off the spoils of chaos, intimidation, and murder.

 

[cpwill]

A lot people "invite" the pain in the beginning, but after day three of inprocessing, thats gone. CS gas isnt really all that bad, just depends on how well you can control yourself. The worst thing I have had was OC spray, I felt like my face was melting off, and it was 20x worse than CS gas. Ive been gased in the chamber and in the field, the chamber was worse for obvious reasons. But OC spray takes the cake, hands down. Plus wait till it reactivates in the shower (wear swimming trunks).

filters forbid me. but SCREW OC spray. i have that certificate copied a dozen times in a dozen locations.

 

[cpwill]

They have not been able to "touch" recruits since before I joined(1987). Somehow the recruits coming out of boot camp still got the job done. I think you have very confused ideas about how boot camp works.

:shrug: they certainly "touched" us in 2005 when i went through.

 

[cpwill]

The gas chamber is there to instill appreciation for your gas mask and the importance of NBC gear. It does a remarkable job of doing just that.

also, it will clear out the URI you will get quite wonderfully.

 

[cpwill]

From what I understand it is so you understand what tear gas does, to appreciate your tools and the gas itself, and for you to think twice before using it in certain situations. Also I'm not 100% sure about this Johnny, but I don't think they can legally slam you against a wall or anything.

:lol: :lol: :lol: WOlin, wait for it. I watched a 6'2 black man get taken down by three drill instructors for freaking out in the gas chamber; they slammed him against the wall several several times until he came to his senses.

 

[cpwill]

cpwill hit the nail on the head, also you should read "On Combat" by Colonel Grossman. It details that the best thing you can do is to train your men as hard as possible. One quote from the book that I constantly remind myself of is "You never RISE to the occasion, you only sink to the level of your training". If you slouched during rehearsals, if you zoned out during the orders, if you never got in the prone when you were supposed to and never utilized cover because 'hell the other guys just have blanks and BFAs', then that is what you will sink to.

A Colonel had the best advice I have ever heard, "Be a son of a b*tch in training, your men will thank you later"

f'ing A, sir. we had a CO who straight up hump-hazed us for months; god we hated those field-x's. sweat, pain, confusion, and exaustion; and eventually live-fire. but i'm convinced looking back that man saved lives, and he was with us, suffering every same step of the way as every LCpl and PFC. If he called me up today and asked me to drop what I was doing and go back to war with him I would in a heartbeat.

and the quote by col grossman is a good way of putting it, i'm gonna remember that one. train as you fight, cause you'll fight as you trained.

Just a side note, and completely un-related, simunitions are the best training tool, they hurt like crazy, especially when nailed in the knuckles. cpwill, I am sure can attest to that. Just a good example.

absolutely; that's why they are the best. i was trying to sell an idea to my CO for a while that we should get those non-lethal claymore mines like they had in Jackass II and use them for our IED lanes (Marines were setting up "cordons" on IED's, like, 10 meters away and crap like that) - i figured one experience with that would give the new ones a greater sense of what an explosion meant.

buuut i got shot down :shrug: whatchagonnado.

 

[1069]

:lol: :lol: :lol: WOlin, wait for it. I watched a 6'2 black man get taken down by three drill instructors for freaking out in the gas chamber; they slammed him against the wall several several times until he came to his senses.

And I've seen a fat slag of mother slapping her child repeatedly in the face in a grocery store parking lot.
That doesn't mean such behavior is legal. It may be tacitly condoned, but only until somebody blows the whistle on it.

 

[cpwill]

And I've seen a fat slag of mother slapping her child repeatedly in the face in a grocery store parking lot.
That doesn't mean such behavior is legal. It may be tacitly condoned, but only until somebody blows the whistle on it.

1. it surely should be legal. certainly i've smacked my son when he needed it.

2. for us it is often necessary; we live here in a brutal environment. the rules we operate under are not civilized ones nor should we try to make them into such. war is by it's nature a break in the social compact, we have laws of war to try to make it less horrific, but the fact is that your individual rights or 'space' means exactly nothing compared to the need of the team to win and survive. furthermore, we are dealing with 19-21 year old males, many of them from far less than ideal upbringings or situations. this is the debate i've had with my friends who went officer route and 'don't get it' a couple of times; many these guys couldn't care less about a counseling worksheet, or a denied promotion, or a finger wagging/tongue lashing. yet your life and the lives of those around you is still dependent upon your ability to gain complete discipline and obedience from them. the counseling process only works for those who need it the least; and for the others, NCO's need to have tools in their kit to handle them in ways that do work. now, you tell some Sgt, Cpl, or Senior LCpl that 'sorry, it's illegal to do that', and he's going to make the following equation:

maybe get caught and get in trouble < maybe save my life or the life of a fellow Marine

and at that point he has also ceased to trust you; because he now knows that you look at that equation, and you reverse the direction of the greater-than sign. for you, risking his life is worth looking better on paper.

 

[LizardofOz]

Ductus I appreciate your comments. I dunno, I understand what you are saying about the whole punching in the face thing. I am the kind of guy that I either get rowdy, or I try my hardest to not crack a smile when someone is in my face yelling. My dad used to tell me stories about such things happening, then having to do pushups or running (can't really remember exactly just got punished by having to do excercises or chores I guess).

yes, it does. you think it doesn't, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but you're going to be better off selling it to someone who hasn't buried good men because of the weakness of others; weakness that was a product of the system that produced and trained them.

I understand where you are coming from and I personally wouldn't mind if it was the way they did it back in the 80s or 90s, but I also understand why they do it. I know plenty of guys that have gone on several tours and came back fine. Of the 20+ people I know personally friend or family, they are all doing perfectly fine if not some of them are a little "different" than I remembered them before.

Me personally, I am used to having a rough life, having rough times, and doing things that most people I know would be ashamed to do. Why? I don't know. I just do what I got to do to survive.

Also I guess I stand corrected about the whole being physical with you. Who gives a **** if it's legal or not? I invite the gas chamber. I'm sure I won't be saying that when it happens but I'll be the first to take my damn mask off.

Although if someone punches me in the face and breaks my nose or something then I might have a problem. If for whatever reason they got to slam me against the wall or push me down the stairs or whatever so be it.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Kind of an off topic question, but I'd like to put this out to the vets.

Did you find that once you joined the military, your social status in society increased? What I mean is... did people start showing you more respect, did you get more rewards, more pride from your family and friends?

Too busy to notice.


In military towns you are treated with indifference to mild contempt, home life, it was excpected as I come from a long line of military folk.

I am really curious about the reasons as to why people decide to sign up. A lot of want to serve their country, continue a family tradition, and have a job that gives them a lot of skills, but there must also be a prestige factor too, no?

Prestige? you mean "prestige" of being paid next to nothing, living long hard hours away from friends and family doing a job most are unwilling to do? "prestige" has little to do with why we did.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I'm just ****ing with ya. Also no Redress I think I have a decent idea of how it works I'm just ****in around.

If you were all you did was succeed in looking silly. :shrug:


I am more than happy to correct any misconception you may have. Just ask the right questions. :thumbs:

 

[LizardofOz]

My uncle was in the Airforce during Desert Storm and of course for awhile after that. He got a decent job because of the airforce coming out. I don't know how the Air Force works now, but I do know the army and marines actually pay pretty decent now when you compound the bonuses and such. I think the trade off is the Airforce and Navy by comparison don't have it as rough. Also I said before in another thread I couldn't join the air force and here is a few reasons why:

-they do credit checks
-You cannot have any kind of criminal record whatsoever
-They aren't really in need of people like the marines or army
-You get limited to what jobs you can have in the air force depending on sight
-Incentives aren't as good as army or marines

So yeah those are the reasons why I wouldn't join them. If I was spit-clean perfect up and down I probably would.

 

[Caine]

I think this is ridiculous and, frankly, find it hard to believe.

This kind of coddling is not doing these recruits any favors. Actual combat doesn't "readjust" according to generational standards (or expectations).

Luckily, if they get dropped to any units that have any actual expectation of seeing any combat they'll probably be fixed pretty quickly by people who actually know how to train warfighters. Either way they're in for a big surprise.

This is not a good trend.

Fortunately, ACTUAL COMBAT SOLDIERS aren't going through an "easy" boot camp like this.

This junk is for the PAC Clerks and Supply Guys.

 

[cpwill]

I am really curious about the reasons as to why people decide to sign up. A lot of want to serve their country, continue a family tradition, and have a job that gives them a lot of skills, but there must also be a prestige factor too, no?

Prestige? you mean "prestige" of being paid next to nothing, living long hard hours away from friends and family doing a job most are unwilling to do? "prestige" has little to do with why we did.

eh, alot of it for me was honor. especially in reenlisting; how could i beg out of my generations' war?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

eh, alot of it for me was honor. especially in reenlisting; how could i beg out of my generations' war?

Honor =/= prestige. rof


Definition of PRESTIGE

1
: standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion
2
: commanding position in people's minds


What others thought of me was of no consequence as to why I served... The words are similar but really much different.

 

[other]

Fortunately, ACTUAL COMBAT SOLDIERS aren't going through an "easy" boot camp like this.

This junk is for the PAC Clerks and Supply Guys.

That's what I suspected... I know the Army allocates boots according to their MOS, and I honestly can't imagine any drill instructor from any combat MOS backing down from a recruit waving a stress card for being yelled at.

_______________

I do worry about the guys that get deployed without some real intensity in their training history though. When I was in Anbar the most frequent ambushes, by far, were targeting the motor T guys. The enemy usually knew better than to attack even an infantry squad on patrol with small arms. They usually just lobbed a few mortars and used irrigation ditches to retreat, 'till we got wise to that crap, aside from IEDs.

Guys in the supply chain don't have the same level of capability as far as weapons or training as is, so they are targets. Softening any training cycle for them any further is a big mistake, and I do think this is a problem in both the Army and the Marines. It's only natural that your enemy is going to take advantage of the weakest link in the chain.

When I was in boot camp in 2003 I could definitely sense a trend toward a softening just from the occassional lectures we got from the senior DI, and I saw several DIs punished for assaulting recruits (not just "touching them") but nothing that would cause any lasting harm. Personally, although the DIs were punished, the incidents I witnessed were not over-the-top and were more than warranted IMO. I expected as much from boot camp.

And concerning getting slammed against the wall in the gas chamber, that's for a specific purpose. When your training with chemical weapons, there's no room for making allowances or avoiding hurt feelings--there's certainly no bubble of personal space that need be respected. If there is a situation that arises, it is a safety matter for everyone involved. For those that haven't seen it, the same thing applies on live-fire ranges--especially w/ grenades. When I was an NCO, I personally put another marine down for flagging the line with SAW in condition 1 (ie. pull the trigger and it fires), I even burned my hands in the process because the barrel was hot, but if the mistake wasn't immediately corrected much worse could have happened. When you play with the real toys everyone involved should expect real training. And that's not even mentioning combat, where the reasoning behind all the training becomes so clear you can look back on the hardest, worst, most miserable training you've ever had and laugh with genuine appreciation.

 

[Coronado]

Is anyone else watching "Surviving the Cut" on the Discovery Channel? I know it isn't basic training, but what they're doing doesn't look to f'n soft to me.

Rev, you would have liked this week. It was about USAF Pararescue.

 

[Jerry]

YouTube - New Army Boot camp

This is a travesty of the worst sorts, we are fighting an enemy that has been at war since they where children. They know death personally and fight in the most austere and brutal environments. There is no stress cards for them, there is no cell phones for them, and there isnt anyone giving quiet and positive counsel when they make a mistake. No, they are ready and willing to do what is necissary for their contorted belief system. But are we preparing our nations youth to do what is necissary? The command Sgt Major in the video clip discusses the new training technique as being suited for a different generation.

Therefore, I would argue that we are breeding our nations youth in a bubble. I would argue that its not even our nations youth, but most of its middle aged adults who seem to think that war should be clean and neat. I believe this is starting in our nations schools and being reinforced throughout American society. We need to toughen up people.

I am 24 years old, I am todays youth, and this scares me.

Take comfort in the knowledge that only a small minority of BCT programs are like that. The red stress card only exists in "low-stress/high-speed" BCT programs. The same BCT camp which has the red-card in place in their low-stress/high-speed programs also has the good old fassioned medium&high-stress/low,medium,high-speed programs of old.

I went to Fort Benning and was placed into a medium-stress/low-speed program; my Drill Sergeants didn't even know there was a red-card program in existance. There were no brakes when the stress was high. There were no time outs. There were no mediators to tell the Sergeant to walk away. We did suicides in full battle-rattle in Georgea heat for houres; we had the bullhornes in our faces; we had the screaming, the constant insults, the ****-**** games, etc.

Combat MOS's don't see red cards. In fact Army infantry go through an extended BCT of 13 weeks, whereas normal Army BCT is only 10 weeks including in-processing.

It sounds like you need to do a little more reserch like I need a spell check.