• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

So, if abortion is murder...

Panache

Irrelevant Pissant
DP Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,041
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Then shouldn't it be a felony to disturb, move, remove, conceal, or destroy human remains resulting from a miscarriage?

It seems to me that if a woman has a miscarriage, and we have defined the inseminated egg as a human being with all the rights that such status confers, then the appropriate action is for her to call 911 immediately and report that her child appears to have died.

Local law enforcement would then come to ensure that there was no foul play, and would remove the human remains from the scene after a coroner determined the cause of death. The remains would then be disposed of by burial or cremation by a licensed mortician.

As I understand it, many women don't even realize that their child has died, so just to be safe, this 911 call should be made anytime a woman menstruates after having had sex.

What do y'all think?
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
115,068
Reaction score
32,526
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I guess pre-1973, when abortion was illegal, that's what we did. Right?


Just like how we deal with potential crimes today... we have to stop at the police department and submit a breathalyzer everytime we leave a bar... just to make sure we are not driving drunk. Everyone knows, "guilty until proven innocent".



Making fun aside, a miscarriage in and of itself does not constitute evidence of a crime.
 
Last edited:

1069

Banned
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
24,978
Reaction score
5,126
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Making fun aside, a miscarriage in and of itself does not constitute evidence of a crime.

Why not?
A child has died, according to prolifers.
Doesn't anybody even care enough to investigate the death of a helpless innocent child?
If a 5-year-old dies, do we just flush him down the toilet and say nothing?
Why would the death of an unborn child require no report, no investigation, since the prolifers on this forum are always insisting fetuses are the equivalent of born individuals?
 

Mell

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
145
Location
Germany
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
As I understand it, many women don't even realize that their child has died, so just to be safe, this 911 call should be made anytime a woman menstruates after having had sex.

What do y'all think?
Even during an obvious miscarriage, she would be lucky to get the attention of the hospical staff if she goes there, let alone have the emergency come and sort out a full investigation of what is happening. Miscarriages are considered natural and not a danger to a womens life. And, a lot of them happen during early pregnancy, so investigating them all would be a lot of investigating.


But, I presume you are not looking for a serious opinion on this...
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
115,068
Reaction score
32,526
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Why not?
A child has died, according to prolifers.
Doesn't anybody even care enough to investigate the death of a helpless innocent child?
If a 5-year-old dies, do we just flush him down the toilet and say nothing?
Why would the death of an unborn child require no report, no investigation, since the prolifers on this forum are always insisting fetuses are the equivalent of born individuals?
If a 5 year old died of being miscarried, we should definately investigate it.


When a 90 year old dies of apparently natural causes... do we investigate it? No. Why? Because a 90 year old dying of apparently natural causes is not in and of itself evidence of a crime. Let's not pretend that every death is investigated. When Grandpa kicks the bucket, they aren't going to dust your place.
 
Last edited:

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
If a 5 year old died of being miscarried, we should definately investigate it.


When a 90 year old dies of apparently natural causes... do we investigate it? No. Why? Because a 90 year old dying of apparently natural causes is not in and of itself evidence of a crime. Let's not pretend that every death is investigated. When Grandpa kicks the bucket, they aren't going to dust your place.
well, would you at least get a death certificate, hold a funeral, get the fetus cremated, maybe scatter its ashes in its favourite corner of the womb
 

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
well, would you at least get a death certificate, hold a funeral, get the fetus cremated, maybe scatter its ashes in its favourite corner of the womb
Just in case you are making light.

I have had two cousins so far who held funerals for their miscarried children.

Their babies were cremated and ceremonies held same as they would have for any other child.

My wife was allowed to hold one of the babies.... and it affected her no differently than would a baby which died shortly after delivery.

They are the same.
 

OKgrannie

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
4,309
Reaction score
3,292
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
If a 5 year old died of being miscarried, we should definately investigate it.


When a 90 year old dies of apparently natural causes... do we investigate it? No. Why? Because a 90 year old dying of apparently natural causes is not in and of itself evidence of a crime. Let's not pretend that every death is investigated. When Grandpa kicks the bucket, they aren't going to dust your place.
Certainly an unexplained miscarriage should be subject to investigation. Otherwise a lot of women are going to be getting away with murder. (Tongue in cheek)

Coroner | La Plata County, Colorado

The Coroner's Jurisdiction
The coroner's jurisdiction is determined by CRS 30-10-606 (1), which states: The coroner shall immediately notify the district attorney, proceed to view the body, and make all proper inquiry respecting the cause and manner of death of any person in his jurisdiction who has died under any of the following circumstances:

From external violence, unexplained cause, or under suspicious circumstances
;
Comment: "Unexplained cause" seems to permit some flexibility of interpretation. A patient who expires suddenly under innocent circumstances and has a long-standing history of heart disease has probably not died of "unexplained cause". "Suspicious circumstances" has specifically been defined by some courts as meaning "an inference of foul play". This should not be used capriciously to justify a coroner's investigation and an autopsy.

Where no physician is in attendance, or where, though in attendance, the physician is unable to certify the death;Comment: "unable" is not the same as "unwilling". If the reason for coroner jurisdiction is unclear, direct conversation with the attending physician should be undertaken to clarify the situation.

From thermal, chemical, or radiation injury;
Comment: "Chemical" includes drugs. Delayed deaths from complications of drug use or abuse must be reported to the coroner.

From criminal abortion, including any situation where such abortion may have been self-induced;
Comment: In Colorado, "criminal abortion" is defined as "to end or cause to be ended the pregnancy of a woman by any means other than justified medical termination of birth."

From a disease which may be hazardous or contagious or which may constitute a threat to the health of the general public;
Comment: This is usually understood to mean undiagnosed, but perhaps suspected cases of infectious disease which may endanger a family, the community, intimate contacts, or attending medical personnel, e.g. undiagnosed AIDS, tuberculosis, meningococcemia, viral encephalitis, etc.

While in the custody of law enforcement officials or while incarcerated in a public institution;
Comment: Whether from obvious violence or "apparent" natural causes, these cases should be accepted for investigation. An independent investigation, including an autopsy, is in the public interest to preclude problems arising later from allegations of "abuse", "brutality", or "inadequate care".

When the death was sudden and happened to a person who was in good health;
Comment: "Good health" is a relative term which means different things to different people. The application of this portion of the statute requires discretion and communication with the deceased's family as well as with medical caregivers.

From an industrial accident.
Comment: Deaths resulting from workplace accident, workplace exposure, or any other job-related factors, i.e. workman's compensation cases, fall under the jurisdiction of the coroner. As a general rule, any death on the job will be investigated to ensure that the cause of death is adequately documented. The coroner's jurisdiction is generally understood to also include deaths from delayed complications of workplace exposure such as malignant mesothelioma resulting from asbestos exposure or late developing cancers resulting from workplace radiation exposure.
 

OKgrannie

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
4,309
Reaction score
3,292
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Just in case you are making light.

I have had two cousins so far who held funerals for their miscarried children.

Their babies were cremated and ceremonies held same as they would have for any other child.

My wife was allowed to hold one of the babies.... and it affected her no differently than would a baby which died shortly after delivery.

They are the same.
It is a miscarriage only up to 20 weeks, after 20 weeks it is a stillbirth. A miscarriage is NOT the same as a stillbirth, and a stillbirth is NOt the same as losing a born child to death.
 

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
It is a miscarriage only up to 20 weeks, after 20 weeks it is a stillbirth. A miscarriage is NOT the same as a stillbirth, and a stillbirth is NOt the same as losing a born child to death.
That's all subjective.

Try explaining the differences to my cousins...

Or even my wife for that matter.
 

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
115,068
Reaction score
32,526
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Abortion was illegal until 1973. Noone got investigated for a miscarriage.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Just in case you are making light.

I have had two cousins so far who held funerals for their miscarried children.

Their babies were cremated and ceremonies held same as they would have for any other child.

My wife was allowed to hold one of the babies.... and it affected her no differently than would a baby which died shortly after delivery.

They are the same.
i can understand that, an emotional bond does form, whether the baby is born or not, but my satire was more directed at the argument for giving the unborn child legal personhood, yet not have a death certificate, and all the paperwork and legal processes that happen when a person dies, you make a fetus a person, and you'll need to investigate every stillbirth and miscarriage to make sure its not a case of criminal negligence on the mothers part, ascertain cause of death, and all that crap.
 

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
i can understand that, an emotional bond does form, whether the baby is born or not, but my satire was more directed at the argument for giving the unborn child legal personhood, yet not have a death certificate, and all the paperwork and legal processes that happen when a person dies, you make a fetus a person, and you'll need to investigate every stillbirth and miscarriage to make sure its not a case of criminal negligence on the mothers part, ascertain cause of death, and all that crap.
Like Eco said,.. we have had abortion illegal in the States before and this was not the case.

Neither is it the case in other countries where elective abortion is already illegal.

You're attempting to fear monger or at the very least introduce a red herring (fallacious) argument.

And we aint buying it.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Abortion was illegal until 1973. Noone got investigated for a miscarriage.
no-one was arguing that the unborn child was deserving of personhood either, not were they seeking to prosecute abortions as murder.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Like Eco said,.. we have had abortion illegal in the States before and this was not the case.

Neither is it the case in other countries where elective abortion is already illegal.

You're attempting to fear monger or at the very least introduce a red herring (fallacious) argument.

And we aint buying it.
if people were trying to make abortion illegal 'cause they thought it was immoral, or whatever, then i'd be making a fallacy, but you try to push anti-abortion laws because you think it's murdering the fetus, thereby granting recognising it(s) personhood, you can't do a half-arsed job of making it a person.
 
Last edited:

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
if people were trying to make abortion illegal 'cause they thought it was immoral, or whatever, then i'd be making a fallacy, but you try to push anti-abortion laws because you think it's murdering the fetus, thereby granting it personhood, you can't do a half-arsed job of making it a person.
Personhood is recognized,.... not granted.

I don't have a box of "personhood" on the shelf waiting for me to find someone or something to give it (grant it) to.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Personhood is recognized,.... not granted.

I don't have a box of "personhood" on the shelf waiting for me to find someone or something to give it (grant it) to.
bloody semantics, i changed it just for you
 

Panache

Irrelevant Pissant
DP Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,041
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian
If a 5 year old died of being miscarried, we should definately investigate it.


When a 90 year old dies of apparently natural causes... do we investigate it? No. Why? Because a 90 year old dying of apparently natural causes is not in and of itself evidence of a crime. Let's not pretend that every death is investigated. When Grandpa kicks the bucket, they aren't going to dust your place.
I didn't say that every death was subject to a full blown investigation. When a 90 year old dies of natural causes, the people who find them call 911, local law enforcement arrives on the scene, a coroner confirms the cause of death, and the remains are disposed of in accordance with laws regarding the disposal of human remains. Just like I suggested should be done with misscarriages in the OP.

If Grandpa kicks the bucket and instead of calling 911 you chop up his remains and flush them down the toilet, that is a crime, even if he died of natural causes.
 

Panache

Irrelevant Pissant
DP Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,041
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Abortion was illegal until 1973. Noone got investigated for a miscarriage.
So you are saying that before 1973 there were lots of women illegally disturbing, moving, removing and/or destroying human remains and law enforcement was simply lax in tracking them down? Or are you saying that it wasn't illegal to disturb, move, remove or destroy human remains? (unless you were an archaeologist, the Medical Examiner's office, law enforcement, or a licensed mortician)
 

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
If Grandpa kicks the bucket and instead of calling 911 you chop up his remains and flush them down the toilet, that is a crime, even if he died of natural causes.
I think this begs the question; "In the absense of calling 911, calling the cops or coroner, etc... does the 'person' that was cease to exist?"

In other words,.. like Prom likes to whine about from time to time about the census and birth certificates,....

"Did people (persons) exist prior to the implimentation of such devices?"

If your answer is yes,... then introducing 911 calls, funerals, the coroner and all that other noise is nothing more than a non sequitor or a red herring to the debate. As none of those things have any direct bearing on whether or not a new person's life begins at conception.

A 'failure to recognize' does not mean something doesn't exist.
 

Panache

Irrelevant Pissant
DP Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,041
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I think this begs the question; "In the absense of calling 911, calling the cops or coroner, etc... does the 'person' that was cease to exist?"

In other words,.. like Prom likes to whine about from time to time about the census and birth certificates,....

"Did people (persons) exist prior to the implimentation of such devices?"

If your answer is yes,... then introducing 911 calls, funerals, the coroner and all that other noise is nothing more than a non sequitor or a red herring to the debate. As none of those things have any direct bearing on whether or not a new person's life begins at conception.

A 'failure to recognize' does not mean something doesn't exist.
I did not suggest that 911 calls and coroners etc... had any effect on the existence of a person. Quite the contrary. The premise of this thread assumes that the unborn is a person and that aborting them is murder. The debate here is whether people other than archaeologists, the Medical Examiner's office, law enforcement, or a licensed mortician should be allowed to disturb, move, remove or destroy human remains.

It can't really be a red herring, since it is in fact the topic of the thread.
 

Chuz Life

Banned
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
385
Location
Nun-ya-dang Bidness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I did not suggest that 911 calls and coroners etc... had any effect on the existence of a person. Quite the contrary. The premise of this thread assumes that the unborn is a person and that aborting them is murder. The debate here is whether people other than archaeologists, the Medical Examiner's office, law enforcement, or a licensed mortician should be allowed to disturb, move, remove or destroy human remains.

It can't really be a red herring, since it is in fact the topic of the thread.
As you wish,... so long as you agree (and you have) that none of it has anything to do with whether or not a person in the earliest stages of their life is a "person."
 

Djoop

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,932
Reaction score
683
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That's one of the big problems with toilets, the life that gets flushed down there, the whole system lacks checks and balances. Zygotes should be named and registered, implemented with chips and liable for damages, who hasn't been kicked by one.

On a lighter note, I wonder what Chuz celebrates on his birthday.
 
Top Bottom