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Loxd4 said:If Venezuela cut off there oil supply to United States of America for no good reason (which there would be no good reason). The U.S. would have to buy more oil from another county or open up there reserves or use war as an option (as did Japan in WWII), because the U.S. need oil to fuel it's economy.
And I would like to say "It would not be morally right to invited Venezuela if this happen, but remember morally come last when the will to survive kicks in.”
I am try to say that when we cut off oil to Japan in WWII, we provoke them to attack us because they did have enough oil to fuel there war machine.
Dose this make more sense now?
Loxd4 said:You ever hear that saying "to have an effect you need a cause." Well the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Al-Qaeda attacked was a effect. We got the Al-Qaeda pissed some how i dont know how.......and the Pearl Harbor had it coming for us................Ok, here goes a Scenario if Presedent Hugo shut of oil supply to the US, what would the US do...just sit back and hope for the best or attack....i think we would attack if they would come to a comprise with 24 hours......now we cut of oil to japon durning WWII when they need oil for there war machine....so they attack b/c of something we did....
Red_Dave said:Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america.
Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.
Davo said:http://www.serendipity.li/cia/death_squads.htm
Are we going to count direct/indirect support of contras? And direct and indirect support for dictators? and....direct and indirect support for slaughterings...
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book73e.htm
Red_Dave said:That would be the Somoza's in Nicaragua. Not to mention the american funded terroist war against the Somoza's successors the Zapista Junta. Oh my bad i forgot Carlos Castillo Armas in geutamala thats 13 and counting . i imagine theres more but im not going to combine a complete list for now as that would take ages
Red_Dave said:Your forgetting that the U.S has supported 12 dictatorships in latin america. Many of which killed thousands of people. Not to mention genocidal regiumes like Israel.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:I support the Contras, they were fighting the evil genocidal Sandanista communist scum, the Contras were freedom fighters, death to the ****ing Sandinista tyrants!!!
We didn't **** of Al-Qaeda Al-Qaeda is pissed off naturally their ideology is one of hatred and fascism.
Davo said:You support the Contras that killed innocent farmers in Nicaragua? So basically you support all the Freedom Fighters in Africa right? The ones who killed millions in the 90s? Apparently you do. For someone who's so educated you have no clear view of what a freedom fighter is. Websters deffinition of a freedom fighter :
Human rights controversy
Lacking support from the population in that part of the country, Sandinista troops committed their most controversial activities (as far as human rights are concerned) on the Atlantic Coast, including the forcible relocation of 8,500 Miskitos from their land and the destruction of up to 100 villages, activities which led to charges of genocide at the time. They also killed and imprisoned several indigenous people suspected of Contra collaboration. On two separate occasions in 1981 and 1982, Sandinista troops committed massacres in which approximately (UNHCR Report) 34 Miskito Indians died.
During the war Amnesty International and other groups alleged that political prisoners in Sandinista prisons, such as in Las Tejas, were beaten, deprived of sleep and tortured with electric shocks. They were denied food and water and kept in dark cubicles that had a surface of less than one square metre, known as chiquitas ("little ones.") These cubicles were too small to sit up in and had no sanitation and almost no ventilation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista
The Sandinista army committed myriad atrocities against the Indian population, killing and imprisoning approximately 15,000 innocent people. The crimes included not only mass murders of innocent natives themselves, but a calculated liquidation of their entire leadership – as the Soviet army had perpetrated against the Poles in Katyn in 1943.
According to the Nicaraguan Commission of Jurists, the Sandinistas carried out over 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution. The number of "anti-revolutionary" Nicaraguans who had "disappeared" in Sanadinista hands or had died "trying to escape" were numbered in the thousands. By 1983, the number of political prisoners in the Sandinistas' ruthless tyranny were estimated at 20,000. Torture was institutionalized.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=180
Davo said:Freedom fighter is a relativistic local term for those engaged in rebellion against an established government that is held to be oppressive and illegitimate. The terms "freedom" and "rebellion" are often controversial, as often both sides in armed conflict claim to represent the popular cause of "freedom". While external intervening parties, even oppressors, almost always claim to be "liberators", 'freedom fighters' also often become oppressors in the eyes of civilians.
If you support freedom fighters....you basically support Castro since he was a freedom fighter in his time...you support Che Guevara...you support Hezbolla...you support Bin Laden.
Ok....In another topic or was it this one? You said...."Facism is a form of Socialism"...OK....If you knew anything about Al-Qaeda you'd know there is nothing they hate more then socialism since 99% of all socialist states are atheist. I'm not sure about North Korea. Al-Qaeda was fighting the soviets remember?
MODERN LEFTISM AS RECYCLED FASCISM
By: John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)
A Leftist prophet
The ideas of Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), the founder of Fascism, are remarkably similar to the ideas of modern-day Western Leftists. If Mussolini was not the direct teacher of modern-day Leftists, he was certainly a major predecessor. What Leftists advocate today is not, of course, totally identical with what Mussolini was advocating and doing 60 to 80 years ago in Italy but there are nonetheless extensive and surprising parallels. Early in the 20th century, he prophesied that the 20th century would be the century of Fascism and he got that right in that most of his ideas are still preached by the modern-day Left.
The popular view
Popular encyclopedias such as Funk & Wagnalls (1983) lump together Hitler's German regime, Mussolini's Italian regime, General Tojo's Japanese regime and Generalissimo Franco's Spanish regime under the single rubric of "fascist" so it seems clear that it is the accepted wisdom that all four regimes were basically similar and differed only in matters of detail. Anyone who knows even a little of the history of the period concerned, however, must realize how far from the truth this is. The feudal warlords of Japan, the antisemitic socialist of Germany, the Catholic monarchist of Spain and the pragmatic socialist of Italy were in fact really united over only one thing: Their dislike of Lenin and Stalin's Communism and "Bolshevism" generally. There clearly is some need, therefore, for us to look at what Mussolini and the Fascists really were and did.
The reality
In what follows, facts that should be easily checkable in popular encyclopaedias and textbooks will not be referenced. Less well-known facts, however, will be referenced. History is of course written by the victors and most summaries of historical Fascism are therefore written from a very anti-Fascist perspective so care is normally needed to tease out the facts behind the interpretations and value-judgments. That will attempted here.
Unlike many other accounts, considerable emphasis will be given here to Mussolini's early years. What politicians say in order to get into power and what they do once they gain power are notoriously two different things -- with Lenin and Stalin being not the least examples of that. A major aim therefore will be to see where Mussolini came from and what he did and said in order to get into power.
To do so, however, is a considerable trip back in time and one effect of that is that the political terminology of nearly 100 years ago was somewhat different from today. In reading quotations from the early days one must keep in mind that those Mussolini refers to as "Socialists" were in fact Marxists rather than social democrats and those whom Mussolini refers to as "liberals" were advocates of laissez faire and would hence be described as conservatives today. Mussolini started out as a Marxist but eventually devised Fascism as a "third way" (sound familiar?). He saw it as offering a middle way between Marxism and capitalism -- Leftist but not Marxist.
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html
[URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"][URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"][URL="http://www.sfgate.com/templates/brands/chronicle/images/chronicle_logo.gif"][/URL][/URL][/URL]
Denial of Holocaust nothing new in Iran
Ties to Hitler led to plots against British and Jews
Edwin Black
Sunday, January 8, 2006
Relations between Berlin and Tehran were strong from the moment Hitler came to power in 1933. At that time, Reza Shah Pahlavi's nation was known as Persia. The shah became a stalwart admirer of Hitler, Nazism and the concept of the Aryan master race. He also sought the Reich's help in reducing British petro-political domination.
He called upon all Muslims to "kill the Jews wherever you see them." In Tehran's marketplace, it was common to see placards that declared, "In heaven, Allah is your master. On Earth, it is Adolf Hitler."
When the mufti raised three divisions of Islamic Waffen SS to undertake cruel operations in Bosnia, among the 30,000 killers were some volunteer contingents from Iran. Iranian Nazis, along with the other Muslim Waffen SS, operated under the direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler and were responsible for barbarous actions against Jews and others in Bosnia. Recruitment for the murderous "Handschar Divisions" was done openly in Iran.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/08/INGODGH99Q1.DTL
In fact if you knew anything at all about the modern Islamic Fascism you would know that the Iranian revolution against the Shaw was initiated by a Marxist group who blended the teachings Marx with that of Islam.
Did you know that even fascism is a form of socialism?
Davo said:Read your own quote :
Now try to follow this with me since you went off and said something else.
"Al-Qaeda(As an organisation) is against Communism(hey there's something yall got in common)...Since socialism is a form of communism....and in turn facism is a form of socialism...Al-Qaeda would be contradicting itself"
Let me give you an example. This year a friend of mine from the CIA, named Bob Baer wrote a very good book about Saudi Arabia and terrorism, it's called Sleeping with the Devil. I read the book and I got about a third of the way through and I stopped. Bob was writing how when he worked for the CIA how bad the files were.
He said, for example, the files for the Muslim Brotherhood were almost nothing. There were just a few newspaper clippings. I called Bob up and said, “Bob, that's wrong. The CIA has enormous files on the Muslim Brotherhood, volumes of them. I know because I read them a quarter of a century ago.” He said, “What do you mean?”
Here's how you can find all of the missing secrets about the Muslim Brotherhood -- and you can do this, too. I said, “Bob, go to your computer and type in two words into the search part. Type the word “Banna,” B-a-n-n-a. He said, “Yeah.” Type in “Nazi.” Bob typed the two words in, and out came 30 to 40 articles from around the world. He read them and called me back and said, “Oh my gosh, what have we done?”
What I'm doing today is doing what I'm doing now: I'm educating a new generation in the CIA that the Muslim Brotherhood was a fascist organization that was hired by Western intelligence that evolved over time into what we today know as al-Qaeda.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15344
Davo said:Easily....The U.S. dropped 2 atomic bombs...killed 200,000 people(CIVILIANS) through the first action....and then countless more through time and radiation. An unnecesarry act of war that led to Japans surrendering...Some will say "The Japanese would have never surrendered"....I concur....so we basically commited a terrorist act by attacking their civilians who had nothing to do with the war....much like...Al-Qaeda killed the people at the world trade center.
ProudAmerican said:Davo,
Im intentionally not covering WWII yet because im still waiting for some kind of numbers from your side of the debate.
Or is your debating style simply making accusations without any attempt at providing actual numbers?
Personally, I think you want to avoid the actual numbers because you know what the end result is going to be.
I do ok for a Hillbilly when I put my mind to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia
As of 2006, the political climate remains polarized as debates continue over economic issues, dealing with a steadily rising cost of health care, culture conflict and values based issues (encompassing separation of the church and the state, abortion, free speech and same-sex marriage), as well as the ongoing war in Iraq. [2] As of early 2006, the Iraqi death toll from the invasion stands at 200 000 or more
Vietnam War...
Casualties for the North Vietnamese
1,100,000 - Soldiers.
2–4 million - Civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
anything you'd like to add?
Davo said:Well I did put in a pretty big number.....200,000 Japanese civilians killed with the Atomic Bombs...If you factor in radiation and time that's another 200,000 more or less
........I'll add another...the Iraqi death toll....is at around 200,000...
Let's be fair and say American soldiers are responsible for 1/5 of these deaths(wether directly or indirectly)....that's still 40,000......anything you'd like to add?
ProudAmerican said:as far as vietnam, you want to pin the entire number of dead vietnamese on America?
you dont want to attribute some of those dead to the communists?
man you really dont play fair do you?
Davo said:ok....so lets say we split it half and half....who's responsible for the 1,100,000 dead gooks?
Trajan Octavian Titus]Well then you have to figure in the estimated 10,000,000 lives that dropping the bombs saved by avoiding and invasion that's -9,800,000.
A) That's a total lie the deat toll has not surpassed 50,000 unless you get your fact from al-jazeera.
B) The bulk of the civilian population has been killed by the insurgency, the insurgency specifically targets innocent civilians the U.S. targets the enemy.
Your 200,000 number is a total fabrication. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the death toll is 50,000, 1/5 would be 10,000 dead terrorists killed by America and 40,000 innocent men women and children killed by those very same terrorist scum bags.
And how many millions of innocent South Vietnamese were killed by the aggresor nation of North Vietnam? How many were killed in the purges following our withdrawal, how about the hundreds of thousands killed by the Kymer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc etc!
More than a half million tons of bombs were dropped on Cambodia over the four-year campaign. The raids were secret and records were falsified to report that the targets were actually in South Vietnam. As the bombers were being guided and instructed when to release their bombs by MSQ-77 RADAR systems, even the crews of the bombers themselves were not aware what country they were bombing. These attacks were conducted without the consent of Congress and might have been grounds for the impeachment of President Nixon, however, the Watergate scandal had already prompted Nixon to resign.
Davo said:So you're saying...it was OK to annihilate 200,000 lives in 10 seconds? :| Boy...the Hutus would have loved you during the genocide.
I didnt...I got em from wikipedia....cnn and fox said the same things...
HEY! 2nd thing we agree on!
CNN and FOX said it...not me...
....Didnt the U.S. continue bombing cambodia until the early 70s? Have you ever heard of Operation Menu?
\Heres something the goverment will never tell you....most of the people killed by those bombs...were civilians
Davo said:So you're saying...it was OK to annihilate 200,000 lives in 10 seconds?
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